Stuck at 98 bouys

[Marco]

I am one of the masses stuck at 2 @ 38 (55K), and am at a loss on how to break through to the next level.  I have just started skiing in tournaments recently, and have asked the 38 and 39 off skiers on what they do differently at 38 as opposed to 35 (there is no one at that level to ask on my lake).  Other than getting higher on the boat, they all pretty much say that they don't do anything different.  I guess that I need to re-phrase the question then:

"What can you get away with at 35 that you cannot get away with at 38?"

I obviously have a flaw in my technique that will allow me to run 35, but not past 2 @ 38.  Any input would be greatly appreciated.

JTH- It sounds like you had a big breakthrough due (partially) to a fin change.  I am on the Fish, and I think the clamp is too narrow to be able to change fins, (but I do have a front Reflex on the way, hoping that a hardshell might give me better edge control than my current rubber binding).  Do you have or plan on producing any fins compatible with a Fischer?

[Joe McCreary]

I just started skiing 38off this year and the two things that I must have at 38 as opposed to 35 off are edge change and gates.  You have to think edge change after the 2nd wake while holding out bound direction.  that was the key that helped me.  At the gate you need to have the ski under rope and handle at navel or lower.  Those are the two things that I concentrate on.  Also remember that only the ski has to get around the buoy not your whole body.  I try to hit one ball below my knees(backslide buoys).

Unfortunately everyone has different issues.  These are some things that I think about that help me.

 Joe McCreary

[Old MS Accout]

For me it was not bringing speed to 1 ball, only bring the speed you need to run the pass. let the ski finish the turn at 1 ball and do not overpull to 2. The shorter the line, the more consistant speed you need. stop/start or fast/slow skiing will dump you at 2 ball every time. I am now at 39 dealing with the same stuff I was dealing with at 2@38. It is the same thing, just magnified more by the extream short line.   

[Marco]

Joe-I am getting an early edge change at the second wake, but I think I might not be keeping the handle in long enough into the bouy, initiating the turn a little early and losing angle after the second wake.  I am taking slack hits out of one, so the loss of outbound direction makes sense.

 MS- What I am feeling at 38 is "Shorter line + higher on the boat = more angle = greater acceleration = more speed."  How are you controlling your speed and acceleration when the physics encourage the opposite? 

[Old MS Accout]

Dont think of it as more angle or greater acceleration. your angle should be the same as all the other lines.

I was pulling up high on my pull outs to the gate and bringing a bunch of speed to 1 ball thinking it is the only way around it. Look at Chet or David Miller and how they go at it. They only pull out about 1/2 way or so to the ball line and then the ease their way to the wakes with just the right speed. Find out what that speed is and dont go any faster then that. Chet took one look at me and told me all this. 3 passes later I was running 38. Here is how he explained it to me.

You are on the freeway with the wife and kids in the car doing 70. They are sleeping and you are loving life because they are not bugging you. Now you must take the exit to get on to the next freeway. You do not want to go 70 all the way to the end of the exit and then slam on the brakes and then accelarate to get back up to speed. That will wake them up and then they will start bugging you. You just ease your way down the exit and then slowley accelarate back up to speed.

You never want to get rocked at all. If you have to recover from sudden movements, you will take hits and fall. Keep your speed steady and make that speed the speed that is needed to run the pass. It takes a bunch of repetition to find it.

[Marco]

Great analogy!  I can think of two ways to accomplish what you are describing, if I have it correctly.

1- Don't worry about getting high on the boat, so the angle and speed will be less dramatic through the gates, or;

2- Pull out high on the boat, but turn in to the gates earlier so the angle and speed is more manageable.

Which do you think is more effective? 

[DaveD]

Do all of the things you work on to run the shorter passes like 38off translate back to the longer lines making those passes that much easier or do you have to run them completely different?   For example, does a good technique for a 38off gate work at 32 and 35 off? 

The reason I ask is 22off got a lot easier when I started working on 28off.  I'm wondering if I would have the same experience if I shortened to 32off to make my 28off pass easier. 

[Marco]

From my perspective, the concepts remain the same at all lengths, however the shorter the line, the more precise all components need to be.  Jamie B likens skiing 41 off to skiing on a garden hose...no margin for deviating from the most efficient path through the course.  Expanding on that analogy, 28 off might be more like skiing on a sidewalk, and 15 off like skiing on a roadway, where there is more margin for error.  So to answer your question...yes, good technique at 38 is good technique at 32.  Only the intensity changes.  I think it would be good for your 28 off passes to try some at 32.  It will give you some insight on the things you need to work on.  That is what I am dealing withat 38.

 

[Old MS Accout]

Marco,

I think both ways could be effictive, but I am on the 1st. I have a bunch of video of Thomas Moore, Wim Decree and Trent from the boat at a record tourney. All three of them do not get out and high on the boat. They just glide out and head back in a very controled manner.     

[Old MS Accout]

Check out Schnitzs site today and look at the Wim Decree video and the explaination given about his speed. It breaks down all this stuff. It is really good stuff.    

[Marco]

Thanks MS.  Last weekend I was at a tournament and watched Don Beaman do exactly that.  Very easy pullout and turn in, and he ripped right through 38 like it was 28.  I'll try it this afternoon and see what happens.

[ktm300]

I don't run 38.  I do run 35 and am getting some good coaching to progress.  One concept that is helping me a lot is this:

You do need to be 70 degrees or more on the boat on the pullout.  It seems that lefties benefit from being higher.

More important than height on the pullout is to be advancing on the boat at turn in.  This is the only way to turn in and make it toward the centerline before the boat picks you up.  If the boat is picking you up out wide, you will be fast at one.  For me, at 38, I have no feel in the line at the top of the apex (the boat can't be pulling on you if you are beside it).  I have a tendency to seek some line feel by letting the boat advance.  This is a deal breaker. I am finding that advancing on the boat at every buoy also works really well.  I really have to think hard to do it well but, I am working on it.   

[Marco]

I tried tha narrow pullout approach suggested by MS, and I couldn't get it to work for me.  I kept coming in fast and narrow into 1.  I felt better able to control my speed by getting up on the boat.  I am LFF, so maybe there is something to that.

By "advancing on the boat at every buoy" are you referring to keeping enough speed through the turn so you are not coming under load until close to the 1st wake?  If so, what is your mind set to achieve that.  At 38, I find myself "slamming " a turn at one to keep from finishing down course, but it kills my speed, I end up loading from outside, and taking the proverbial 38 off 1 ball hit.  When I try to keep my speed, I end up too far downcourse to get to the next ball.  I know I have to fix this to get past 2, just not sure how...

[RS]

More important than height on the pullout is to be advancing on the boat at turn in.  This is the only way to turn in and make it toward the centerline before the boat picks you up.  If the boat is picking you up out wide, you will be fast at one.  For me, at 38, I have no feel in the line at the top of the apex (the boat can't be pulling on you if you are beside it).  I have a tendency to seek some line feel by letting the boat advance... 

That's a good tip.  I've been wondering about that since I like a little bit of tension in the rope at the gates with the one handed setup.   

 

 

 

 

 

[ktm300]

Marco, you got it.  Just keep moving at the finish.  Do not seek a tight line.  It is possible to outrun the boat so much that you cause slack- kind of a balancing act.  For the first 5/6th of the turn, do what you are doing now.  At the finish, instead of thinking of going 90 and thoughts of angle, think of skiing back toward the centerline.  You don't want 90 or you will stop the ski.  Even if you are able to make it just a ski length closer to the centerline than you are now before the load, you will be surprised at how much it helps.  Advancing on the buoy feels, to me, a little out of control as your balance is all up to you.  No help at all from the line.  I am being coached to never need the line for balance.  One thing that I identified with was to pretend that I was on a skateboard.  On a skateboard, you would never be on your heels, tilted in with your upper body etc.  A woman who skis with us has a background as a tricker.  I told her the pretend she was on a trick ski when turning.  It really resonated with her and her balance got a lot better fast.  Again, I ain't running 38 yet either, so I sure don't know everything.  These tips are, however, helping me and are things that when I do them correctly seem like the right thing.  Also, I have watched 5' 7" Wim Decree run back to backs at 39 and smoke em.  If you watch his video on Schnitz, keep in mind that he's at 58 where the edge change can begin sooner than at 55.

 One other thing is that 38 scared me at first.  I was tentative at the buoy and was so concerned about getting outside the ball that my thinking ended there.  I am trying to approach the ball with a complete path in mind so that I don't get stuck on the outside.

[Marco]

ktm300- Thanks for the detailed explination.  I can visualize what you are talking about, and I am actually doing it at 35.  At 38, my instincts are taking over and are making me rush everything, including the hook up, and I have got to get away from that.  I think your concept of thinking through the complete path will help me correct that.  

This sport can be so counter-intuative.  It is the only sport I know of where the longer you wait, the earlier you are.  If it was easy, they'd call it ........

[RS]

Thanks 300,  this is good stuff.  I just got off the water and my perception and reality are different.   /vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-surprised.gif 

[Marco]

Well, I finally got around 3 ball, only to be so suprised I rushed it, so I only ended up with 2 1/2.  Although I couldn't get the easy, narrow pullout that MS suggested, the even speed concept really helped.  My thought process now is to get really high on the boat, to where the rope is almost touching the bimini strap, but turning in earlier than I had been to control the speed through the gates and into one.  That smoother transition allowed me to keep manageable speed through the turn and back to centerline, like ktm300 described above.  I realize now that high on the boat does not necessarily result in excessive angle.  This concept also really helped me with consistency at 35 off, this week at least.