Ski Test '09

[Horton]

Until you get skier robots out there, and devise a test with discrete data points, you will always be faced with skier preference and style influence.

At least somebody gets it….

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Random thoughts

First off, thanks Tadd for taking on the task.  The ski test is impossible to do perfectly and VERY hard to do well.  Please take my comments as constructive criticism.

First off, the main thing to keep in mind is the audience – what is Joe skier looking for in the ski test?   He wants descriptions of what Brand X does good and bad, vs what Brand Y does good and bad as information toward what which brand may work better for him.  “Try before you buy†is always the best advice, but how can a skier narrow his choices to 1-3 skis to try based on the ski test?  That detail seemed to be lacking.

Also key is how many of the testers could perform “up to or at†their normal performances?  Did one skier gain 3 buoys off the dock on Brand X and the other 9 testers couldn’t make their opener, or vice versa?   This type of info was completely missing.  

The initial description of the ski was apparently written by the manufacturer, followed by one or 2 of the most positive comments culled from the test team.  Might as well be the Boat Buyers Guide.  Readers shouldn’t have to “read between the lines†to guess at hidden meanings – they will nearly always get it wrong.

 The “Keys to the Brand X†were so general and fuzzy as to be completely useless.  What is Joe skier suppose to get out of “Proper fin setup is essential�  Does that mean don’t change it at all from factory, or it has to be moved ¼†in all directions to make a pass?  

So, suggestions for next time:

-        Keep the manufacturer’s descriptions and note as such.

-        Include direct comments from all the testers on each ski – the good, the bad, and the ugly.

-        Fin and binding setups are obviously critical.  The test needs to include changes from “factory†for what worked for the testers.

-        A ranking by each tester of their favorite to least favorite ski (and why) would probably be the single most useful piece of information out of the test.  Include their current ski in the rankings as fair disclosure.  The rankings by any one skier don’t mean that much, but if most rate Brand X in the top 2 and Brand Y in the bottom 2, then you have real information.  Similarly if the 38/39 off skiers loved Brand X, but the 28 off skiers hated it, you also have real information.

Thanks again.  Good luck next year.

[Thomas Wayne]

Sure, "everyone is entitled to their own opinion"... now. But when I posted that I was disappointed in the results [on a different forum]I took nice slap in the face for that opinion.

Of all the posts in this forum that I've read so far, BruceButterfield came the closest to expressing what I would consider a usefulformat.  When I read various posters on this forum - and Kent's - I see anaverage demographic that is NOT in the upper echelon of slalom skiers. That's not to say that we don't have some -38', -39' and perhaps even oneor two -41' skiers checking in around here, but I think it’s pretty safe to saythat there are a lot more -28' skiers here than there are -39' skiers in thebunch.

A couple of years ago a good ski day for me would be running deep into -35 oreven sneaking over into -38'.  Post-catastrophic arm injury I now considerit a good day when I break halfway through -35'.  So it's really hard forme to feel I get much out of a ski "test" that features theone-or-two-sentence comment(s) of a top level skier, followed by several paragraphsof puff and fluff from the manufacturer [of that ski].  This offering - nodoubt carefully written to fit into the WSM zero-offense formula - providesalmost nothing for me to sink my teeth into.

That's my opinion, and it is undeniably negative.  However, I also haveanother opinion that I hope can be seen in a more positive light - I certainlymean it in that way.  That opinion is about how I think a true"independent" ski test (review, or whatever) should beconducted.  I believe that a broad spectrum of skill levels should berepresented in such a test.  I mean all the way down to first-year courseskiers through -39" skiers... and beyond.  I think some readers givea damn about how easy (or hard) as ski is to get up on.  I think somereaders give a damn about what speeds work best with any given ski (I know Ihaven't personally skied at 36mph in almost twenty years).  I think some readers give a damn about fitand finish of a ski, about whether it tracks straight or hunts for an edge,about how easily adjustable the fin is… 

What I find ironic is that there are almost certainly far more sales to hadfrom the –28’ crowd than from the –39’ crowd. Tadd, (who sells skis for a living), and the manufacturers (whoalso sell skis for a living) should care about that.  It’s “business sense 101â€Â, in my opinion.  Reading “I average 5 buoys at –28, and Ifound the D3 X5 worked better for me than any other ski I tested†(for example)has got to mean something to a reader who is just breaking into –28’ andtrying to find his next ski in a row. On the other hand, reading that a particular ski “really has ears†mightnot carry that same impact.

How difficult can it be to create a simple questionnaire for each tester tofill out for each ski he/she tests that addresses these many issues?  Include a gradient scale for the many and various performance aspects.  Do a little math and crunch a few numbers.  Horton did it (or something similar) and inmy opinion it worked.  There’s certainlynothing wrong with giving the manufacturers a place to spin their wonderfulstories about why their particular ski is so great.  But making that the “meat†of these reviews leaves me, forone, a bit cold.  And I live in Alaska.

In spite of his dissatisfaction with my opinion, I sincerely appreciate theefforts of Tadd (et al) in this potentially valuable event.  I consider them a bit misguided, but doappreciate them.

On a side note, it’s been suggested that to be published in WSM all reviews mustconsist of nothing but slightly greater or slightly lesser glowing praise – orthey would risk alienating advertisers and losing their business.  Bologna. Where else are they going to go? Pandering to the manufacturers, whether it’s skis or ski boats, isnothing but a huge disservice to the skiing public – which is us.  Don’t we get enough of that glad-hand happy horsesh*t from our politicians already?  Whoneeds more of that at the ski lake?

TW

[MrJones]

Two things.

 Bruce's idea is as good as I have heard. Having the skiers rank skies favorite to least would really be the best/most clear assessment of the skis. You could break this down into "easiest to go on out of the box" and "I could reach a new PB on this ski". Of course if a manufacturer or two wind up at the bottom the list you will have some unhappy sponsors. This is not a gripe about the current test. Just an agreement with BB on things that could be done in the future.

Next... JTH, aren't you about to get married? You will have no need to go the the woods or throw rocks at bears soon enough.

sj

[scoke]

 Scot Jones said:

Two things.

 Bruce's idea is as good as I have heard. Having the skiers rank skies favorite to least would really be the best/most clear assessment of the skis. You could break this down into "easiest to go on out of the box" and "I could reach a new PB on this ski". Of course if a manufacturer or two wind up at the bottom the list you will have some unhappy sponsors. This is not a gripe about the current test. Just an agreement with BB on things that could be done in the future.

Wasn't that what the previous tests actually did? Letting the reviewers review, publish their thoughts then have some background information provided from the manufacturers not the other way around.

[kdeupser]

I posted over on Kent's form supporting TW.  I liked all the test's to date, but Bruce summed it up best.

Ken D.

[RichardDoane]

I think JTH should put together a big box of skis, all sized correctly for me of course, and I'll ski on them and report my highly biased personal opinions.  There'll be no sugar coating, or glad handing, just the honest to god truth.  So send me the type of info you'd like to see answered honestly in a skier review, and if JTH can come through with some demos, I'll get to work.

[Thomas Wayne]

I want to to know which ski cuts through that Ski Park ice the best.

TW

[RichardDoane]

Eddie just set me up with a new 68 RS-1 that's a little stiffer than my original, but it has yet to crunch any ice. I've been thinking of all the comments I'd like to be able to make about ski testing. TW - thanks for the new ArmGuard, I'll be giving it a testing this weekend. Should I start a new discussion on the results ?

[Thomas Wayne]

Yes.  As the designer and manufacturer, we will provide a one paragraph prologue about the product, which will include our interpretation of cherry-picked comments made by you (the "tester).  Following that we'll provide three or four paragraphs describing how great our product is and how & why it is so well designed.  I'm sure the buying public will find that particularly helpful...

TW

[RichardDoane]

Your new guard worked great, nice fit & finish by the way.  I'm still not attaching the center support, and I'd have to say that I've mastered getting it folded just right when attaching my handle, and I don't even notice it while skiing. Thanks again.

[Thomas Wayne]

Good to hear.  We still need dimensions of your spare handle...

TW

[RichardDoane]

I'm sending it to Brenda @ InTow for a retie prior to this season's tourny's and as soon as it returns I'll get you those dimensions.

 

[skicoug]

My $0.02,

I have simple idea that could work if people can keep secrets. The first premise is unlikely but I'll continue.

The high end slalom waterski community is a small group.  Everyone who is anyone in this sport knows everyone who is anyone.  There are a small number of companies that dedicate to development of these specialty skis.  The absolute failure, or a bad review in this format could probably kill one of these companies.

 As John has eloquently wrote,  there is no perfect ski for everyone. I am quite sure I would hate Jamie's ski.....or Andy's ski......or .....Katrina's ski......

Now to my point. The only way that there could be any hope of getting the unbiased report on a ski would be to have the individuals doing the testing to stay annonymous. Then they would not have to worry about any backlash from the "community".

The next part would be for the report to stay on a forum that has no financial incentive to worry about pissing off any particular ski company.

Maybe Schnitz could do this.......he doesn't mind pissing people off ?

My last thought is that based on the fact that my idea is not likely. And based on all the ruffled feathers about the reviews.  Maybe it isn't unreasonable to think that maybe they are a waste of time. And ......the time should be spent on trying the skis yourself.

After all.........do we really want to know that if we just spend $3K that we will add a buoy or 2?  That may just be torture.

 

 

[Ed_Obermeier]

The idea of keeping the testers anonmyous in regards to which comments are theirs isn't a bad one IMO. I'd like to know who the testers are and what level they ski at, but other wise maybe don't attribute their comments directly to them.  State the comments, tell us what level skier they came from, leave it at that.  I also second the idea of having skiers rank their favorites first to last, as well as the idea of which they skied well on out-of-the-box versus once they were tweaked to their personal likings.  Again stating their ability levels along with the info.  Good ideas.

A broader mix of ability levels would also be well advised IMO.  I agree with the comments earlier of being as interested in the opinions of a skier at or near my level (or lower) as opposed to a 39 - 41 off skier.  The high end skiers opinions are definitely of value and are absolutely critical; however I'm quite sure having participated in the test last year myself that their are skis that will work for me at my level and those that won't work for me, where the ones that won't work for me DO work for a higher level skier.  I want to know about that.  Valuable info and I agree with TW on that point.

Lastly Tadd, Horton is correct.  No matter how you do it someone will bitch.  Your efforts are highly appreciated and I'll anticipate more in the future.  Keep up the good work regardless of whatever bitching you get.  Seems that no good deed goes unpunished...

Ed Obermeier   

[Donski]

I am looking to get a new ski this season and yes I will DEMO Some skis. I would like to narrow the demo skis down to two or three, lets face it would be very hard to demo all the skis.

This brings me to my question: After reviewing the ski test here are my Thoughts, the D3 Nomad, D3 X5, 9900SL, HO A1 and the Elite require a center stance and even sometimes a little tip pressure. This not to say that the Connelly Prophecy and the Radar RS-1 don't also work better with ones weight centered over the ski, but the Prophecy and the Rs-1 seem to be better for those of us who cant always keep our weight forward  and at times get a little to much weight on the back of the ski.

So for a 34mph skier who is  working on keeping his hips up, weight centered, staying off that back foot and shooting to end this season running consistently through 28 off. It seems like the Prophecy and the RS-1 are a little more forgiving.

Thoughts?

[Horton]

You are right. For heel side (2/4/6 RFF) the  Connelly Prophecy and the Radar RS-1 are both very forgiving  in terms of front foot pressure.

The RS-1 gets wider easier but you can't beat the forgiveness of the Connelly. If your style is pretty technical and calm the RS-1 is very hard to beat. If you are a thrasher like me the Connelly may fit the bill.

[Donski]

Thanks John I think forgiving in my case is a key word. I need a ski that will let me work on my technique and not punish me to bad for my mistakes.

As far as style goes if you are classified as a thrash then  I must be classified as a garage sale style.

Thanks for your advice both on and off the water .

Don S. (S.W.V skier)

[Horton]

Don't forget about BallOfSpray Deals and Demos http://ballofspray.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=73&Itemid=88