Surveying a Course

[Marco]

We will be hosting our first tournament ever on our lake next year (class C), and I am curious about course surveying requirements.

1- Is there a requirement to have the course verified via survey?  I can't find this info (for a class C) on USA Water Ski or AWSA, but I am sure it is there somewhere.  I have skied in tournaments on lakes that have not been surveyed in many years, so i know it is not a yearly requirement for class C.

2- I have seen information on doing 2 or 3 point surveys, but a quick skim of the the information makes it look extremely complicated.  Are these types of surveys done 100% from shore, and do you need GPS survey equipment or a liscensed surveyor to get the job done?

3- Can the course be "surveyed" via measuring the actual bouys/gates/boat guides per the slalom course layout schematic including diagonal verification?  This is how we installed the course in the first place, but the lake was dry at the time so it was very easy to do.  Not so easy now that the lake is full.  Sometimes the lake freezes over, so maybe doing it in the winter would work, but as the water drops starting Nov, the bouys get slack, and will not be directly over the anchor point by the time it freezes enough to get out on, so verification that way might not work.

4- Short of hiring a liscensed surveyor, what is the easiest way to survey a course, and can it be done by someone with no survey experience?

 5- I do have a builders level/transit that can spin angles and pivot vertically.  Is this enough to get the job done from shore?

 Any insight would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Thomas Wayne]

Hire a licensed surveyor - in the long run it will save you time, money and aggravation.

TW

[Deke]

DITTO

[Steven]

Ditto TW! I was involved in surveying the course at Wet Set before regionals in 2006 and also on a new lake in Montana. This is something that requires some experience and expertise!

[Kelvin]

With the right equipment and expertise, the 3 point survey can be done entirely from shore.   Last month, a tech controller in Texas (with many years of experience) surveyed a course from shore while a tournament was taking place.  Everything was done from shore and neither activity interfered with the other.

[LeonL]

Marco,

To answer your first question, perhaps making the rest moot, you are not required to have your slalom course surveyed for class "C".  See the rule book appendix under "Tournment classification requirements" and under site certification.

But if you want to survey I would go with a AWSA tech controller.  They know what needs to be done and you won't have to explain tolerances to your average surveyor.  You can locate tech guys by going to the usaws website under officials and do a search in your state, region etc.

[Marco]

Leon,

Thanks, that good information, and is exactly what I'm looking for.  I am not sure where our nearest tech controller is, but I'll look into it.  It would be nice to be surveyed for peace of mind.

Marco

[RichardDoane]

There's been talk in the Pacific NW that all the lakes should be surveyed next year for peace of mind, now that RC tournaments are scarce, and it's just a numbers game to be qualified for Nationals.  It'd be interesting to know the results of narrow vs. long courses.

[LeonL]

I don't know how much longer a course would have to be make it easier, but if you're using PP the boat will have to go faster (as 34.2) than standard to get you a 16.95.  If it's very far off it will show up with ZO by virtual timing ending before you get to the end gates. (beeps before the gate, or after depending on which way you're going).  Generally speaking long courses aren't the way to make it easier, but narrow courses will.  Fortunately that is the easiest to verify by simple measurements.

[LeonL]

Marco,

Try Richard Borea Wheat Ridge, CO 303-238-7632 or, Phil Yastrow Ft. Collins, CO 970-226-2809.  Listed as TCs in Colorado. I think I saw somewhere previously that you were in CO.

 

[Marco]

Leon,

Thanks, I saw their names in the Officials listings for Awsa.  They are the closest Tech Controllers to us, but they are on the Front Range, and we are on the Western Slope of CO, so it is a bit of a drive (350 miles).  The senior judge who is helping us get the tournament together is good friends with both guys, and was going to try to get them to come to the tourney.  Maybe I could entice them to come a day earlier to do the survey, If they are willing and have the time.

 How long does it take to survey a course, assuming it is pretty close to begin with?

 

[LeonL]

Slalom course only?  Kinda based on how good the surveyor / TC is and what equipment he uses and the guys in the water.  As little as 1 hour not counting adjustments / corrections. 

[9400]

As a surveyor, I say..."times are tight, hire a surveyor", as a former tech controller, I say

you need someone familiar with this type of surveying and most surveyors would not do

this properly without some research that they may want to charge you for. You can learn

to do it from a good tech controller, but you need good angle turning equipment, thats

capable of angles down to 20 seconds and the knowledge of how to use it. Based on

the ones I've done (about 30). It takes about 2 hours for the angles and about an hour

to calculate on a course I've done before with an ideal setup. Setting one up could add an

hour or 2. This is using the AWSA program for a 3 point setup (which works very well as

long as your course is fairly close). The single point program works well too, but you need 

a swimmer...and it's a long job for a swimmer.

[Bdecker]

I am about to do a new course install and have a surveyor lined up- but I am wondering if I should get everything "close" via GPS first then make adjustments when he arrives.

 

Has anyone used GPS for a new install? I'm thinking this will make survey day less hectic if there is a reasonable way to translate the course dimensions to GPS points.

[klindy]

A surveyor for a new install is fine. Just give him the course dimensions and tell him you want to actual. I'm assuming the new install is on a dry lake bed?

[klindy]

@Marco if you're still looking for a TC to survey your course let me know.

[Marco]

@Klindy -Thanks Keith, but were good. We've measured our course every other year and it is still dead on. Soft adobe mud has imbedded the anchors, and they haven't moved.

 

Thread hijack - Were hosting what will probably be our last tournament for the foreseeable future next weekend. We only have one promo boat left on the Western Slope of Colorado now, and this will be his last year. Another nail in the coffin, but many thanks to the promo's for hanging on this long. If anyone wants to come ski, we still have a few spots left. 2 separate tournaments on the 18th and 19th. 2 rounds each day leaves time for kids games, barbecue, and general partying at the end of the day and into the night. Funnest tournament around!

 

Now back to the course surveying discussion...

[Deanoski]

Richard that would good info. I always wondered if a few the ponds are long and norrow or both.

 

I beleive there is a 2% variance in length and width correct?

 

width 37 4 1/4- 37 8 3/4 is ( 37 7 3/4 being the actual

 

what is RC 1%