Tournament Boats

[Horton]

In the past I have asked for suggestions and offered a few of my own on the topic of Tournament Boats.  

I am still not in love with ZeroOff but I am kind of over it. The version we had in 2009 was difficult for a skier who practices behind PP but not nearly as hairy as that first year.

I am afraid that the next big threat to our sport might be number of Promotional Boats available to pull tournaments. I know of one Promo Boat guy that quit the program in my area because of the cost and have heard rumors about two others that are leaving the program. If SoCal loses 3 promo boats there will be a problem.

 We need to be thinking about a possible need for an alternative to the factory sponsored boat programs. The sky is not falling yet that I know of but times are changing.

[RichardDoane]

You can ask the EVP of the Region to approve almost any towboat for use in a class C event. As long as it was an "approved" towboat when new. PP Classic, or Stargazer is also still an approved speed control to be used in sanctioned tournaments 9as long as you have "all ball" timing). As the number of new promo boats decrease, then the rules will have to be adapted to allow for "older" boats.

[thager]

If a boat and speed control was prior approved I'm all for skiing behind it. I don't care how old they are! If it gives a legal pull use it! As far as the promo program goes 50K + for a slalom machine now days is pretty ridiculous and isn't helping the promo program any. Can anyone tell me why tournament boats still come with a tach, speedometer, and speed control which supplies the same information? I don't blame the manufacturers for chasing the dough though. Lots of people out there with more money than sense! People will pay big bucks for chin up bars not to mention other even more useless add ons. For what it's worth, I'm also for going back to running our own show {AWSA}. I have no interest in being an olympic sport, wake boring, wake smurfing or whatever.

[jdarwin]

John:  I posted this on another forum in October, 2008. I think it is still applies today.  CC, MC and Malibu have lobbied hard NOT to adjust the "current year" rule for towboats.  The towboat committee has added a year on to Class "C" and below but left the rule for record tournaments in tact.  This was probably a compromise w/ the towboat manufacturers.  I've inserted some comments regarding what has occured to date:

October 30, 2008: 

If you don’t ski tournaments, don't bother reading further. This won’t affect you. But there is a “perfect storm†brewing that will mute the “Zero Off vs. Perfect Pass†debate: 2009 Promo Boats. For those of you who are members of the Big Three’s Promo Teams, this isn’t news. There have been very few 2008 promo boats sold. Therefore, there will be very few 2009 boats available to pull tournaments. Certainly, the promo member can used his 2008 boat to pull tournaments in 2009. But, will they? The additional credits may help to offset the additional depreciation but only if the boat is sold. The way (most) promo members are compensated is credit on the purchase of their next boat. Therefore, if they don’t sell their current boat and order a new one, all that investment (i.e. out of pocket costs) is gone. They may elect to bite the bullet today (and keep/retire their current boat) rather than chew on a potential bomb next year. (many have elected to do this causing our current situation).

The 2008 Malibu guys find themselves in the biggest “pickleâ€Â. If a Malibu promo member elects to pull tournaments, they can either use the current PP system or spend $2k to upgrade to Zero Off (Malibu did assist several promo members w/ the cost to upgrade). Why would they upgrade? They are already taking a hit on the price of the boat – why make that hit worse? If they elect to use PP, they are the odd man out – MC and CC will be exclusive ZO. So, we’re back to the PP vs. ZO argument that we all thought would be a thing of the past in 2009 (2010 may see a return to PPSG as older boats are used).

But that’s not the worst part. What if most of the current roster of Big 3 promo members decide to bail on the program and not pull ANY tournaments next year? (This occured throughout the country).  I doubt they will receive any type of monetary encouragement from the manufacturers. 3-event skiing is a charity – not a profit center. I’m convinced one or more of the Big 3 may drop the program entirely by the end of next year – one in particular has that on the table as you read this. Therefore, for those of us who host and compete in tournaments, the next two years will define our sport like no other. USAWS will be forced to suspend or modify their current regulations with regard to “current year†towboats (already has occured w/ the latest from the Towboat Committee).   Host sites will have to become self-sufficient relative to tow boats (I upgraded to a 2007 SN w/ ZO due to lack of promo boats in our area). The consistency we debated regarding PP vs. ZO will become an unobtainable goal due to the vast number of tow boats that will inevitably be put (back) into tournament use.

I hope I’m wrong but I saw this coming back in 2005 when I chose to leave CC’s promo team after 15 years. As the price of boats continued to escalate, it became more and more difficult to sell a $35-40k “used†boat. A major economic decline would render that next to impossible (this came to pass). If someone is lucky enough to unload their current boat, they have to be asking themselves if it is worth remaining in the program and taking that risk again (most have decided to "retire" once their current boat sold - further reducing the available inventory of promo boats).

[jdarwin]

Richard - the Towboat Comm extended the "current or prior year" rule to 3 years for Class C and under.  They put in some language that gives them the option to approve older boats based on condition, cruise system, etc.  There is no guarantee that you will be able to use a boat older than 3 years and the granting of an exception will certainly have political implications.  Those exceptions will probably differ from region to region and will create even more issues for the Towboat Comm to resolve.  Still, a current year or prior year must be used in Record tournaments  regardless if there are any available.  You can go to France and set a world record behind a 1996 Ski Nautique - why not here?  Quick answer: $.

[Old MS Accout]

I was unable to upgrade to the 200 due to cost and no buyers out there. There are no CC Promos in my area. Wisconson is the closest CC.   

[boarditup]

Wakeboarding, wakesurfing, wakeskating, hydrofoil, show ski, etc (I don't know about barefoot, sorry) do not have any restrictions on the boat or speed control to be used.  Wakesurfing, wakeskating, and showski are growing.  INT does not have a mandate on boats being the recent year, either.  They are doing better than AWSA is for membership.  I think we have painted ourselves into a corner and don't know how to get out.

For most tournament organizers - run it is as F.  Have fun.  Post the scores to the GR site.  Most people don't go to Regionals or Nationals, anyway.  So what if the rules are "loose."  Enjoy skiing.

I don't have an easy solution to the problem for those who are at the elite performance for the sport - Regionals, Nationals, and IWSF elite skiers.  I'll have one tournament this year for the IWSF crowd.  One for the Regional's qualifier's crowd, and three for the FUN crowd.  Maybe I'll upgrade one or two if there is a need, but I think we have to get back to the basics of the sport -fun - before the Rules Committee gets enough pressure from falling revenues to adapt to reality in 2010.

PS.  Boats should be sold because someone wants to buy one, not because they feel pressured by the Rules Committee.  That is the job of the boat manufacturer's, not the AWSA.

 Karl

[Old MS Accout]

In Minnesota they are getting an extra 10 dollars a head on top of entry fee to put in a pool of cash for the promo boats that show up. That is going down a slippery slope. If I could sell my boat, I would go to all the tourneys but in mid July when you have no buyers it is very tough to keep piling on the hours. In the 10 years, only one boat sold in state and that was the following June and I lost my arse on that one.      

[jdarwin]

Mark - I thought the day would come when sites would either have to provide their own tournament boats or pay to have them.  I guess that day has come.  It will be interesting over the next several weeks as Regions host their mid-winter meetings to see the impact that promo boats (lack of) have had on tournaments in 2009 and will have in 2010.  I anticipate that the availability of tournament boats will be a prominent subject at all of these meetings.

[Old MS Accout]

I am on the sidelines waiting this one out. I have 6 rounds planned in Aug. Not sure I can tack on more money to give to the boats but if we dont we may not get them. The midwest 2011 regionals are in Minn and we have no CC promos in state, ND, SD, IA, NE and 1 in WI.

      

[ForrestGump]

I feel very fortunate in Houston, with us having 2 RLXIs, 2 197s, and 1 200(possibly 2 if the issues with Paul Richse ever get worked out).  I'd hate to be in some of these other areas. See, MS..........this is a good reason to move south. Well that and the fact that you are skating on your lake now.

The days of tournament skiers driving promo boat sales are over, at least for now. The powers that be need to open up tournaments to boats that are up to 5 years old at least for C class. I mean really, if people don't come because of the boat, then the tournament organizer knows that next time he needs a better boat.  For record tournaments, I can see the desire to keep the boats newer.

[jdarwin]

Karl: 

I can appreciate your point of view.  We ran 4-6 "INT-style" Class "F" tournaments per year from 1994 until 2000.  But most of the skiers who currently attend my tournaments are Regional/National level skiers.  The availability of tournament approved boats has a direct impact on my ability to host tournaments.  Tournament revenue is critical to the operation of my site.  Perhaps we'll have to adjust our business model in the future but for now, I have a vested interest in seeing the rules adjusted to allow for more flexibility with the Towboat Rules.

[jdarwin]

MS - I'll be your Chief Driver again if you promose the weather will be warm!

[Old MS Accout]

I cant promise that but I can promise a cold beer. It sounds like we are heading to 30 years of cooling because its so hot. How about that crap.

I have a couple of parties comming to look at the RLXI so we hope to be in a ZO boat soon.    

[jdarwin]

I work for beer!

[boarditup]

Darwin:

I feel your pain.  I don't have a good solution because of the way AWSA is set up - the old guard and the elite athletes run the show.  However, the way is paid by the recreational skier who funds the sport by working for a living.  Sort of like our political class.  Anyway, the Tea Party movement is showing that we can shake up the system to get it more rational.  The price will be a severe disruption of the normal flow of events.  Hopefully, we don't have to go there and "they" will get rational on their own.  It is in their own self interest in the long term, but not in the short term.

Tough situation we are in.  Good luck and let me know if I can help.

[D Wolters]

Shane,

Jim boat hasn't sold yet, and not sure about BM's...

[eleeski]

Old boats suck! Stiff steering cables, leaks, failing waterpumps, failing fuel pumps, leaky manifolds, aging uphoulstery and a weakening engine (maybe I like that) all dictate that new boats should be used as much as possible in tournaments. Speed control is becoming less of an issue as the boats age further out of tolerance.

OK, all my boat's defects can be repaired - for less than the cost of a new boat. But then if I throw in the needed zero time engine why not add ZO? Now I can have a boat that is pretty close to a new boat and I can train behind ZO. But this boat will be far more dependant on the care given by the individual owner than a new boat from the factory. We are trying to remove variables from tournaments - new boats do that best.

I have never been on a promo team so I'm not used to having my boat cost be small. I always spend my money on a boat and watch it deteriorate away to worthless. I lose 5000 a year in boat value - at least. Skiing is an expensive sport - the boat is a small part of it.

There is a place in the sport for the serious skiers. Sure it's fun to have Class F tournaments with easy tolerances, easy boats and easy speed controls to rack up some nice scores. But that's not the best measure. A modern boat and all of its advantages are part of getting that good consistent competitive measure - along with the drivers , courses, ropes, videos and judges.

These are tough times. Hopefully the EVPs will allow old boats where new ones are difficult to obtain - on a case by case basis. But using new boats should be a goal we strive for.

Eric

I am working on the budget for a new boat - but only our government can spend money it doesn't have.

[DW]

Not to throw additional wood on a fire, but the reality of Zero Off is the start of standardizing the pull for every skier.  That ultimately means 1 boat allowed.  That is the trend in various sports, particularly motorsports where a supplier comes in and basically buys a series.  Dallara did it for Indycar, Lola for a variety of mid level open wheel series . . .  The correlation to tournament skiing  and speed control would be tires, many series have single tire suppliers.  Hope it never happens here, but one can certainly see how the logic would be applied, particularly by an interested boat manufacturer (assuming they had the $ to "purchase" the rights).

[RichardDoane]

Correct Craft is already the exclusive towboat for the Big Dawg series isn't it ? 

[jhughes]

My 10 year old SN drives and pulls the same as it did in 2000. Zero defects. No leaks, instant starting, fingertip steering. I switch between it and new boats all the time and am never disappointed. The GT40 pulls harder than most of the Chevy mills out there today.

[DW]

Yes, Nautique is sole boat supplier for Big Dawg, they sponsor the series.  Per the other thread, there are fewer eligible entires on the approved list this year, I assume due to the economy and what it takes financially to be approved.  That is the other way to a single source, fallout from the rest.

[GAJ0004]

Would anybody still want to ski on this machine?  240 HP with Stargazer on board.. 1400 hours, near mint condition.  It gives a pretty firm pull.

[GAJ0004]

I really like Stargazer. I have tried classic mode on my boat, but stargazer works better for me. To save time and gas calibrating it, calibrate your analog speedo at 36 MPH first. Take a pen an paper out in the boat with you. Drive your boat at each slalom speed 26-36 miles per hour. Write down all the tachometer readings at each speed. When you go into CAL SLalom mode, enter the RPM readings you write down at each respective speed. It should save you a couple of passes through the course since they will be closer to the actual baseline RPM on your boat. When you calibrate it, use multimagnet mode(I have 6 magnets, 3 in each direction, start gate, ball 3, exit gate). Once your baselines are calibrated, switch to single magnet mode when you pull skiers. The only issue I ever had was when pulling big skiers (150-230lbs) at 30-32 MPH it would either be slow or actual in the first segment, and then it would accelerate from ball 3 to exit. I was able to solve the problem by setting the crew weight 50 pounds over the actual crew weight, and set Kx to + or ++ depending on conditions. I normally don't use KX in any other circumstances. The pull of my boat feels just as strong as a new one. I especially like Stargazer for tricks.. Let me know if my tips help. I never had perfect pass until I had stargazer installed in 2008.

 

 

[GAJ0004]

Your boat has more power than mine, you should not need to use the KX unless you prefer a more agressive firmer pull. I only use it at 30-32 MPH. I will only use it at other speeds if I am heading into a very strong wind, but only if I get a pass that does not keep the course time(it has only happened to me maybe on 3 passes). My course is out in the middle of a 600 acre lake. KX+ or KX++ into the wind, or KXn or - with a strong tail wind. We get all kinds of conditions. If you have  whitecaps bigger than 3 inches high, it is safer to drive manually. I have not had to calibrate my baselines again. I wrote down all the baseline RPM and keep them in my owner's manual in case they get erased. I bet with 310 HP you won't need to use KX. 94, 95, and 96 were very good years for Nautiques. It is the best dashboard design. Still my favorite trick wake.

[GAJ0004]

I have my magnet sensor on my driver side( most people have it on the passenger side). I have it in the vinyl pouch next to the driver seat, the bottom facing the outside of the boat.  Make sure the magnets are north pole up when placed in your course. I have the skier to skier S1X magnets. I place them so they are about 2 feet under water. I leave all six in because there are other boats on my lake with older versions of PP. If you have a mechanical engine be careful not to overshoot the baseline rpm too much when pulling up your skier. If you do, the system will have to search for the baseline rpm. You will notice the boat speeding up and slowing down before it locks in. As a driver you will have to pay closer attention when initially locking in the speed. After that it is a piece of cake to drive. The single magnet mode also gives you times from gate to gate. I always clear the timer between passes. It has worked very well for me. Most passes are seldom more than + or - .02 seconds off actual in good conditions. If conditions deteriorate it is not quite that accurate, but still within the quarter mile per hour tolerance.  

[Mark Poppleton]

WHAT BOAT DO I BUY?

 

I am in the market for a boat and have my heart set on the SN200, I am getting heat from the family to purchase a more all round boat like a 216..with a tower etc..The primary uses of the boat will be slalom skiing, wake surfing and some wakeboarding for the kids...Can i do all that with the SN200?? I am trying to take into consideration all the factors, re-sale value, functionality, personal preference, and the needs of the family...

 

Can anyone help me with my dilemma??

 

M

[ForrestGump]

Mark, I know where there is a beautiful red/black 2010 Team SN200 open bow with 65 hours on it for $49k.

[clemsondave]

Either a tower on a SN200 or possibly the new Sport Nautique 200 V drive (same hull as the 200).

[UWSkier]

Mark,

 You're not going to get a surf wave out of a tournament direct drive, so depending how much the surfing is going to be a factor, you may want to look at a different boat.  Sounds like you're more of a crossover type consumer unless you're going to be spending 60% or more of your time doing slalom.

[Ed_Obermeier]

Best slalom/family boat on the market;  2003 - 2006 Response LXI.  World class wakes and tracking plus my wife and I can lounge together comfortably in the open bow with the filler cushion installed.  You ain't gonna do that in a 197 or 200 OB.   With a tower and wedge (and a couple sacks) it makes a passable intermediate wakeboard boat too.  Just one opinion.

Ed

[Mark Poppleton]

Thank you...Ed, UWSkier, Clemsondave, ShaneH & Bruce..

 

For your comments...I am going to look at a Mastercraft X-14 and make a decision, do these cross over boats have a slalom wake that they claim to have?

 

Tough decision...I have always been a Nautique fan...but trying to remain neutral and objective.

 

Mark

[clemsondave]

If you have not heard about or seen the Sport Nautique 200, check it out. You can surf behind it and I've heard 39off has been run behind it. I doubt that has been done behind the X14 or 216.

 

http://www.planetnautique.com/vb3/showthread.php?17774-Initial-Impressions-Sport-Nautique-200

 

http://www.nautiques.com/videos/index/sport-nautique-200-sneak-peak

[ForrestGump]

I'm being told that the V drive Sport Nautique 200 has a wake that's almost as good as the Ski 200 and is as good or better than the 196. The Team package on the Sport comes with the tower standard, also, in addition to all the other goodies like the Link system.

[D Wolters]

Mark,

I know someone who has an 09 LXI promo, all the hardware for the wedge is in place and it wouldn't take much to talk him into providing a tower. It has a heater & shower and the head unit for the stero has never been (played) installed.

[Ed_Obermeier]

V-drives do NOT make good slalom course boats.  Period.  If slalom is your primary dicipline you don't want a v-drive, regardless of brand.  Ski behind a few if you don't believe me.

Ed

[ForrestGump]

Ed, Have you skied the new Sport 200?

[GAJ0004]

Solution to the ski boat/wakeboard surf boat  dilema.

Get the SN 200 so you can do 3 event skiing. In my 1994 Ski Nautique we use an extended pylon which you can remove when not in use, and we have a FAT SAC. You won't need the tower.  If you pull a wakeboarder, put the FAT SAC in the back, and if you want to surf, get one of those FAT BUDDIES and put it on one side so you can get the big wake on one side. It takes a little time to fill them with water, but they make a nice big wake. It is easier to set up a ski boat for wakeboarding and surfing, and it is to ski on a wakeboard boat. A full FAT SAC in our boat makes the wake almost a foot and half high. I don't wakeboard, but pull some of my friends who do. It also works great for kneeboarding. I have used the FAT SAC in a Master Craft PS 197 also when kneeboarding, and it makes it to a good wake for kneeboarding. The equipment I mentioned is made by Barefoot International. It will work on any boat as long as it has a 12 volt plug to operate the pump.

[Mark Poppleton]

Thank you once again for all your comments and ideas...much appreciated!!

 

I was on www.nautiques.com and looked at the all new SPORT NAUTIQUE 200 that looks like an incredible boat...what the slalom wake will be like I do not know? And what price will that come in at...I think prohibitively high..!!

 

Cheers,

 

MArk

[UWSkier]

If you're not a tournament skier, there are a handful of V drives that make nice slalom boats (Sport 200, Malibu Sunscape 20 LSV).  My biggest beef with our V drive versus the direct drives I ski behind is that the V drive feels a bit squishy at the ball.  That said, our 2001 Sunsetter VLX has a ridiculously nice wake that you wouldn't believe was behind a V drive as long as you're over 32 MPH.  It's not a terrible course boat.  Tracking and handling is on par with or better than some 90s and older DD's I've driven.  You mentioned kids though.  ANY V drive is going to make a big wake at slower speeds you use for training kiddos on the skinny sticks.  Drop ours below 30 and the wake gets pretty big.  Around 26 it's very big.

 

It's really going to come down to what you want to do with it.  Another boat I would recommend you look at if you are looking at tournament caliber wakes as well as a good family boat is the Response FXi.  This is built on a widened version of the Response LXi hull and delivers great, soft wakes.  What makes it a more versatile boat though is the wider beam and higher freeboard.  It's safer for kids and you can load it with a lot more ballast for surfing/boarding without having to worry about swamping.

[Ed_Obermeier]

I have not skied behind the Sport 200, although I did get to ski behind Whitney's SN 200 OB today.    Awsome wake, reminds me of my '05 RLXI. /vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif  I also stayed at a Holiday Inn...

I maintain that if you're a SERIOUS slalom skier V-drives DO NOT make good slalom boats.  Period.  Out.

As an aside, ZO people take note.  Somewhat of an eye opener to me, the ZO didn't negatively affect my skiing a bit.  If fact I thought I skied pretty darn well today.  Amazing what a little good coaching will do for ya.

Reporting from (semi) sunny Florida, Ed

[Gloersen]

Concur.

 

Don't know if it is the water quality (quite good) of that lake or if CC has McLintock's 409 SN200 tuned particularly for slalom; that boat had a real sweet, smooth pull!

 

Plus the coaching was good.

 

Rip it down there!

[ForrestGump]

This morning I talked to a friend who just got a Sport 200. He traded in his 196.  He said the Sport is as good or better to slalom behind than his 196. He ran 38 behind it yesterday.

The SN200 wake reminds you of an 05rlxi? Geez, our 200's wake kicks the hell out of my ski partners 05 RLXI. And drives WAYYYYYYYYYY better. 

[Ed_Obermeier]

I was just joking ShaneH.  Seriously...

Ed

[clemsondave]

Good, I'm glad I didn't reply to you Ed. I thought maybe you went off the deep end. Yes the LXi is amazing, but the wake on the 200 is out of this world.

[Marco]

Ed- If you get the chance, drive the 200.  You'll be blown away with the tracking. 

[Mark Poppleton]

Does anyone know what the price of a Sport Nautique 200 is?

 Mark

[Ed_Obermeier]

Marco & Dave- Didn't get to drive it, that wasn't going to happen at someone's ski school.  It was excellent to ski behind though, I was definitely impressed. 

Gloersen - That's pretty much what Matt said too, that this particular boat was set up very specifically.  Plenty of power with the 6.2 engine and a 4-blade prop so that it didn't have to work very hard to maintain a specific speed.  The tradeoff is that it goes through around 40% more gas, ouch.  So it sounds to me that how the boat is setup and powered makes a huge difference in how ZO works, pretty much in agreement with what has been stated by others previously in some of these discussions.  Very eye opening information.  Also agreed, that lake skis slow, excellent water quality and pretty much glass the entire time.  Very well worth the time and $$$.

Ed