Help with 36mph

[FA]

Looking for help with 36mph. I can ski 34mph nice and easy. 15(34) or 22(34) feel the same, I can ski thsi off the dock. When I move up to 36 Ifell like I am losing a battle.  Get 5 at 15(36) everytime this year. And can get 4 at 22(36). Should I skip 15(36) and just focus on 22(36)?  How should I go about doing this. I have run 36 a handleful of times in the past 2 years. But it  always feels out of control. 

[Boody]

You need to better your form. You can do the minimum and make 34 but you have to be doing things right at 36. You will need to extend more and counter more because the ski is going much faster. You have to do more to get the ski to bite, then be patient to allow it to finish. Solid form behind boat is critical but let the boat do the work, don't pull too hard and be fast.

[scoke]

 

Gate, gate and more gate work.

 

[bmiller3536]

I would suggest staying down longer behind the boat. Make sure you are maintaining your lean through the second wake and control the handle all the way to buoy width. If you short pll and give up the handle to early this will cause you to ski down course and make you feel like you are out of control.

[RichardDoane]

Braden and Tomas both start @ 34/22, then 36/22, then 36/28 and so on.... 36/15 is a tough length

[FA]

RD,

Did they ever work on 36(15)

Or did they just skip it?

[scoke]

 

Andrew,

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with most of the comments as making the jump from passes at 34 to 36 starts to kick in things that are crucial ie the gate.

A skier can counter rotate, extend more, lean harder, lean more, changes edges earlier-softer-harder, all they want but if they aren't starting to be up on the boat with a good gate it's all for naught. The skier will be chasing the boat regardless if they are picture perfect west coast left coast new school old school. It doesn't matter as one mistake and they'll be down in the water. With a narrow and behind the boat gate, geometrically wise, it's like trying to run 38off if the skier isn't ready.

At 36 the gate and the geometry become crucial to let the skier work with the boat (and ZO) not against it.

First step when the skier bumps the speed up, get higher on the boat allowing for an earlier and slower turn in giving as much geometric advantage possible. You can run 15-36 bent over or not even pulling with a good gate. Good form will compliment the good gate every time. Ever notice that most skiers when they come back from getting coaching the first thing they say is the coach had them work on is their gate? their is a reason for this.

 

 

[skidawg]

Listen to scoke

[RichardDoane]

FA - I don't know about Tomas, but Braden could run 36/15 and didn't like the feel. They both felt that 36/15 was just a dog of a pass, too much effort, and both boys could easily do 34/22 and 36/22.  In tournament, it's so important to not MOP, so you have to be really comfy with your opener.

[FA]

RD.

I am comfortable with 34(15).

So I guess I will start looking closer at my Gate.

 

Scoke,

I talked to you a little last year about the elite working for me. But after the one 22 off pass I ran last year it has been all down hill since then.

Thanks

 

[bmiller3536]

Agreed, the gate is very important. But the gate is important at every speed.

I think the hardest thing to do at 36 mph is to control your speed and direction (this is important at the gate as well) and the best way to control your speed and direction is to maintain good position through both wakes and control the handle.

[eyepeeler]

Sounds like you are too weak to hold the cut at 36.  If you are serious about skiing see a chiropractor, PT, or MD.

[ktm300]

You mentioned having bought the elite. Trust me, the next time you have 2k for a ski or 1k or whatever, take that money and go to a good coach. One week with a good coach can save you years of frustration and potential injury. While you may not be able to cure all that ails in one week, a good coach can get you understanding how to train and what to be practicing. It won't be trying to bang out buoys but, rather, will be working on technique, technique, technique. You need a good foundation before getting caught up in trying to run buoys. First technique and then buoys. Do not sacrifice technique and balance to run 22. 39 ... well ok.

[robscholl-OF]

My son Tomas, B3 skier has no issue changing speeds.  He does not like the long line at -15 so just runs 55K-22 to open.  It gives him an easy opening pass.  His key to 58K is strong behind the boat and quick edge change and keeping on the handle.  He spent a few days with Terry Winter and his form and strength behind the boat along with an early quick edge change was the key for him.  He has been getting deep -35 and now really has to work as Scoke has said on his gates.  OF

[GAJ0004]

I went through the same thing when I made the change from 34 to 36 MPH. When I started could get into 32 off at 34 MPH. When I bumped the speed up to 36 I could barely get through 15 off. I went to Hazelwood's ski school in 1993 which helped me.  These are the keys that helped me.

1. Get as much angle as you can coming into the entrance gate, keep your lean away from the boat. Try to clip the back side of the right gate ball with the top of your ski. Like always your strongest pull should be right behind the boat. Try to maintain it until you get past the right gate ball. Keep your eyes focused on a spot ahead of ball one. Keep trying to maintain angle until your edge change.

2. On the turns, keep your knees bent and soft. If you are kicking out your fin in the turns, soften your knees up more. When finishing the turn, make sure you let the ski finish. Compared to 34 you may feel like you are waiting longer to load on the rope and lean. If you pull too early you will have to pull longer to get to the next ball, and  you will carry too much speed, where you will still blow your fin out. If you don't let the ski finish you will lose angle.

When I switched to 36 MPH I had big trouble with my offside turn and pull. I am left foot forward. On both pulls make sure your hips, chest, and shoulders are pointed in the same direction. On your offside pull you have to rotate your hips chest and shoulders more away from the boat to maintain the same angle you get on your onside. If you do it right you can actually make up lost time on your offside pull/lean. 

To get used to the speed, just practice at 15 off. Keep running pass after pass and work on just getting earlier, wider, and more smooth on every pass. When you begin to feel like you are waiting for the buoys to come to you, then start shortening the rope. As a warm up, start at 34MPH @ 15 off, and 35 MPH @ 15 off, and then work on 36 MPH 15 off.  If you have Perfect Pass Stargazer, you should be able to do that in practice mode. Not sure if ZeroOff does the same thing. When skiing cold off the dock I always start at 15 off no matter what speed I am skiing at.

Hope my tips help. Keep us posted..

 

 

[h2odawg79]

Progression is not only the Goal, but it is also the Key... IMO, most of the above suggestions are productive avenues to work with. But, ultimately you'll only succeed with the example(s) that you relate to and believe in and these sometimes change for all of us with time and personal exp...

At 15-22, I feel bmiller3536  and Gaj0004 probably hit the nail on the head for you at this time. You can't just start changing everything all at once. But, you must find a way to implement some "Baby steps", "Stepping stones" or "Building blocks" of progression. i.e. Maybe working in 1/2 mph jumps would be a smoother transition then a full 2 mph all at once. Or even .1 mph increases...

Another Good progressive drill to employ while trying to master a new speed or length would be "Running the course backwards" by shadowing 1 thru 5 and then turning #6 + the exit gates. Then add #5 and so on, as you are readily capable of doing so. This takes the difficulty out of Hitting the entrance gates perfectly and wasting the rest of the pass after missing a Buoy. (this drill is endorsed by Ben Favret...) You'll have to find what drills or avenues make sense to you, what you can see in your minds eye and what you can believe in and work with...

The entrance Gates will become the 1st priority "if" you want to ski competitively in tournaments. (Tournaments are not the only thing happening on the water. If tourny's are in your future, then perfect ent. Gates will be as well...) So, for the short term you can do yourself a Huge favor by missing the ent. Gates early by 5 ft. until you can run the course easily and then eventually (wks. later) missing by 2ft. and then eventually hitting them too... PROGRESSION is the Goal and it is also your Key to success...

[Nick Sullivan]

Wow, lots of great pointers here. I was just thinking about making the change to 36 mph this morning and I found this thread.

 A couple things that stand out to me are what BMiller said above about maintaining my cut behind the boat. This was something I was struggling with earlier this year. Now I am focusing on pulling the strongest from boat spray to boat spray. 

 

Also, my gates are a work in progress every day. It is so hard to reproduce my pullout so they are the same every time. Luckily I have some great skiers at my lake that are helping me with little things every day.   

[eleeski]

36 is never easy! The required intensity is a huge step. It is always going to feel like you are on the edge of control - you have to ignore that uneasiness and focus on technique and power. The jump is all mental.

When I'm coaching someone who has the skills but doesn't make the course (5 ball?!!!) I might pull a really hot 36. The feeling of speed, the need for power, the quickness and required intensity just to stay alive makes a normal 36 feel much more manageable.

Many of the deep shortline college skiers start at 34 to make sure they get a score in the books for the team before shooting for personal glory.

36 was chosen as the top speed because they felt that nobody could ski the course that fast. If you approach 36 with the mindset that you are going to do something nearly impossible by pushing the limits of how hard one can pull and turn, then you will own 36.

Eric

[JDM]

I have been going through the same challenge and at the end of last year had a break through that hopefuly I can maintain this year.  I found at 36 my edge change had to be way earlier, but I had to maintain body position and an outbound course even more so, because I couldn't afford to give anything away. 

 I tried starting at 34 at 22 off, then to 36 at 22 off at others suggestion, but that didn't change much or help much either way.  I had a hard time at 36 regardless of the rope line, but the breakthrough made either one easier. 

[FA]

Update.

 Well I sent some video out and got feedback that my bindings were not forward enough. So fixed that and I stopped hopping the wake.

 With that and squeezing my triceps to my vest after the second wake. I have succesfully run multiple 36(15). And now I am wide and early for 36. Now just need to nail down 22.  Keeping  your arms tight to your vest as long as possible is really getting the most effective pull for me.

 Did not realize how important having your ski setup properly has an affect. Was using stock numbers but that is not my style.

 

 

[Bud Man]

I’m not sure what Eric is talking about on speed. I think I remember back when Bob and Chris LaPoint were very young the speed was faster than 36mph.

The speed hurdle was the first big one for me. I started skiing later in life so I only had to ski 36mph for a few years. When I got out of M2, I had not accomplished -35 @ 36mph. Even though I skied 34mph in tournaments, I practiced 36mph until I could run -35. I even eventually went on to run -38 @ 36mph. These threads have given a lot of good advice. I’ll give you a few keys that I think are important even though some might be a repeat.

1)      Convert the power from the boat to speed in the ski but only on one side of the course. If you feel strain then you are resisting the boat’s power instead of using it. I think that “Old School†uses leverage and is easer on your body. I view “West Coast†as using you body as a counterweight. I think this requires more strength than skiing with leverage does. “West Coast†style appears to be derived from people crossing over from surfing and skating and using what they are already doing and applying it to water skiing.

2)      What ever way you choose to accelerate, you need to generate just enough speed to carry you from the center of the wake around the next buoy. I would try to never pull past the center of the wakes.

3)      Work on form, work on form, work on form. Make your good form your muscle memory.

4)      Increase speed in small increments without sacrificing your form.

5)      Video yourself and compare it to someone you are trying to ski like.

6)      Lessons are a good idea even though I have not had any.

I think these are the important keys but there are many, many smaller things to work on within these fundamental keys.

[skiergeeg]

bud man, right on. i was holding my tongue to object to all the pulling to different spots people were talking about. center of the wake and thats it! it takes time to edge change and get shifted more on top of the ski. if you are pulling off the second wake instead of getting pulled forward and getting ready to reach you will b going too fast to turn. good luck

[KG]

Has anyone ever skied faster than 36? There was a rumour that some guys did a 40mph 15 off pass a few years ago..... I have no idea if it is true.

[Thomas Wayne]

I have a friend who used to ski in excess of 75 mph... but not in a course.

TW

[KG]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg_yLI5F8KU&NR=1&feature=fvwp

 

Only 75? He must be a newbie, lol.

[Thomas Wayne]

SHE (not "he"), not a newbie, and pushing 60 years old.

TW