Maybe... Maybe I do not HATE ZO so much anymore

[Horton]

If you have been around BOS for long you have heard me bitch to no end about ZO. I need to modify my stance.

2008 Nautiques with ZO are great.  So good in fact that I do not care what setting.

All other boats seem to be mostly not horrible with A3. I would have never really tried A3 but a friend swore to me that I had to try it. I always thought that with C3 the boat do the nasty to me when I was stacked and get off me at my edge change.  If you look at the charts this seems right. Right?  I screwed around with C1 for a while thinking that the gas would come on early but not radical and get off early-ish and gental.

A3 looks like it would gas me late and be the worst of all things. Remember that all I want is for the boat to not drag me down the lake after I switch edges. A3 seems to let me finish better and generally does not run on me after the second wake. Tournament last weekend on A3,  behind MC and Boo, only once did I feel like the boat was trying to piss me off.

With this setting I do feel  like maybe I could use a little more boat at the ball but I will get used to that.

[jdarwin]

John - I have found that those who are accustomed to PP like A3 - it picks you up a bit later and provides that "slight tug" in the edge change that moves you up over the ski.  C1-3 requires you to move over the ski more "manually" since the resistance is reduced off the 2nd wake.   I like C2 behind Ward's Malibu but tend to like B2 behind Erb's so the boat can make a difference (even the same year/brand).  I'll have my 200 next week so I'll be back to "guessing" what setting works best. 

[jimbrake]

My experience with A settings is that I get too deep on my onside turn which is my main problem anyway behind any boat, any driver, any speed control. C settings (haven't tried C3, though) feel good, but can result in me being narrow due to lack of gas behind the boat. This past weekend I went with B1 behind a 200 and it was by far the best feeling boat/setting combo I've experienced in the past 3 years. I haven't been that wide, that early, had that good of angle and acceleration out of the turn in I don't know how long. Of course, I still managed to f-up my 35s, but that is a function of going too hard on my gate and I'm in the process of fixing that.

I practice behind an '09 196 with ZO that feels OK with B1, but it is definitely harder than the 200/B1 combo (I wonder what the prop differences between the two boats are). ZO settings are so personal, that you just have to figure out which one feels best for your style/technique/size/speed/line length/ski/water temp/shorts. I know guys that swear by A3, guys that swear by C2, guys that swear by B1. I now swear by B1, but then my shorts are like a camo with a black grid overlay pattern. So, you know....

[Horton]

It is all about the shorts.

[RichardDoane]

A3 Rocks behind my MC 197TT

[Boody]

A3?? Are you guys smoking crack?

[skibug]

I ski C1 = softest pick up and early.  I have a theory that says you need to determine how you want to be picked up from the boat first.  So, the acceleration curves are 1, 2, & 3; 1=softest, 2=medium, 3=hardest.  Then, you need to determine where you want to be picked up; C=earliest, B=middle, & A=latest. 

Not sure if anyone agrees with my theory; but, I could see an arguement that if you are in better body position before the boat picks you up; you can afford to be picked up later (A vs C) and harder (3 vs 1).

I am now very confused......I actually want a C- or B+ setting...is that asking to much from ZO?  Would that make it too many more options.  We already have 9 combinations; what harm would a few more do?  

[Old MS Accout]

A3 pulls me narrow at the ball.

B1 rocks on all boats.

[jdarwin]

Horton offered me $20 to pull you C3 - he wants an OTF.

[Than_Bogan]

Skibug, I agree with your points, except:

NO MORE SETTINGS!

9 is exactly 8 more user choices than there should be.  Over time, I hope to see the ZO algorithm become much smarter and simply do the right thing, without needing each skier to give it hints about how he's going to ski.

B1 works for me.  I can't hold anything that has a 3 in it, but I could see how a bigger, stronger skier who labels himself as a Ball of Spray could benefit from that.

And that's an example of my point.  Indirectly, ZO can (theoretically) detect when a skier is bigger and stronger by the rate at which the boat is decelerated.  It could thus compensate for that directly, automatically doing the behavior of the "right" number.

This is in no way a criticism of ZO.  I know just how hard it is to write a control system algorithm.  And early versions of most algorithms expose lots of parameters.  But over time algorithmic improvements should be aimed at reducing the need for hacky parameters and just doing the right thing.

[Skihack]

You need to ride a ZO compatible ski.

[skibug]

I need a ZO compatible body type and technique.

As far as the extra settings, that was sort of "tongue in cheek"; sort of......

[Than_Bogan]

Yeah, I didn't think you were completely serious.  Just decided to use the opportunity for my canned soapbox speech on the matter. /vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-smile.gif

[Ed_Johnson]

First of all, let me qualify this: My Name is ED and I LOVE ZO !!

MS brings up an important point. While I can't say B-1 Rocks, I definitely would say B-1 is SAFE. For anyone who has not had the opportunity to ski ZO and you are use to PP, feel comfortable that B-1 will NOT do anything BAD to you and will feel very much like PP. I call it the Neutral Point, since every setting after that gets slightly stronger.

I also feel B-1 is the NO Risk, NO Reward setting.

NO RISK: Nothing bad happens. Feels like PP

NO REWARD: Since every setting after B-1 gets stronger, there is potential, that if you have your act together and attain your leveraged position BEFORE ZO knows your there, a setting like C-2 or C-3, has the capability to pick you up, and SHOOT you across like a Rocket. ......Andy Mapple showed me this when I skied with him in April. He had me switch from B-2 to C-2 and the results were amazing. ......"HOWEVER," While skiing with Andy I was at 32 off the whole time working on positioing my Lean and to take advantage of C-2. Later on, practicing at home, at 38 and even sometimes at 35, if there was even any Bow in the line from turning fast at the ball, I would get NAILED and pulled up. Also, C settings kept me at a higher more CONSTANT speed throughout the whole course. I also lost the advantage the Goode WR gave me when slowing slightly at the ball and accelerating out. So right now it is back to B-1 to work on form and switching to the Goode MR to be able to take advantage of the higher sustained speed I feel at the C settings.

Bottom-line, the greater the reward the greater the risk. As MS said, B-1 is a really good setting for all boats and especially the PP guys.

Ski Well,   ED

[bmiller3536]

"Bottom-line, the greater the reward the greater the risk."

I think that may be one of the dumbest things I have ever read.

 

[Than_Bogan]

bmiller --Huh?  It's a standard assumption in many game theory analyses that increased risk must be compensated by increased reward in order to lie upon the optimal frontier.

In less geeky terms, there are many cases where greater risk is required to reach greater reward.

That may or may not be true of any ZO setting, but it's certainly not an absurd concept.

Given all the dumb things printed out there in the world, it's hard to see how Ed's comment could be in the top billion.

 

[bmiller3536]

this topic is about picking the best zero off setting for you, that statement basically says "hey use the setting for ZO that is the least likely to help you out(because that would be the riskiest) and use it because you will get the best reward." great advice I will try it out tonight

[Than_Bogan]

lol (literally)

I think you misunderstand.  Increased risk is not AUTOMATICALLY compensated with increased reward.  Try standing in front of an oncoming train if you want to maximize risk -- that doesn't come with much reward.

But increased risk CAN offer the chance of increased reward in some cases, and when it does it may be rational to take on that additional risk.

[bmiller3536]

"Bottom-line, the greater the reward the greater the risk."

Does it say in some cases in that quote anywhere?

[skibug]

I guess I just don't see any of the ZO settings as a risk.  I mean, for me, going to an A setting is more of a risk of not running a pass as opposed to C; but, on the contrary my 120 lb wife would be the exact opposite.  I don't think that she would ever get a reward out of a C3 setting.  So risk here is really not risk; it is an effort to maximize ones performance based on mutually exclusive choices; not an increased or decreased level of risk.  Style, weight, skiing ability and level all play into the choice; but, i don't think there is any risk / reward relationship involved.

[Than_Bogan]

I guess I suggest everyone re-read Ed's post.  I find it interesting and well-explained.  If it doesn't match your experience, that's fine.  In fact, it doesn't match MY experience -- to me every aspect of B1 just feels better than other settings.  But Ed's is still an interesting experience.

If it still seems like pure idiocy on a re-read, then so be it.

[Ed_Johnson]

Thanks Than,

I was only trying to help. Didn't expect to get villified !!!

Let me explain it in an easier manner so bmiller can get it.

First, you go out and run your opening pass. Was there much risk?   NO  Was there much reward? NO - You do it all the time.

Now you go up the line to 39 off and run it. Was there more risk?  YES   Was there more reward?   Hell yes....Thus the greater the Risk, the greater the Reward.

Now relate this to ZO. At B-1 is there much "risk " that it will pull you out of position?  NO

Will B-1 pick you up and SHOOT you across like C-3? Definitely not. But C-3 has a GREATER RISK of Pulling you out of position but will also REWARD you with making you very early for the next buoy, since it picks you up earlier, adds more power, and releases you earlier. Thus it is riskier to use C-3 because the sudden power increase can punish you for improper body position. However, if your good enough to have consistently GOOD body position, it will REWARD you by aiding you in being earlier for the next buoy.

Thanks,  ED

[Old MS Accout]

I agree with ED. Good post Ed.

[Ed_Johnson]

Thanks MS, since your one of the most knowledgeable posters I consider that a compliment. Now if I could get TW to say that it would make my day. LOL

[Ali]

We will have  a new boat next year with Zero Off, and I will probably be driving quite a bit at the start of the season for a range of skiers who are used to perfect pass and who if they have skied behind zero off will not have any idea what settings they have tried and used. From what I understand I should try the starting point of:

A2 for the slower lighter skier (43/46 kmh)

B2 for the faster skier 52/55 kmh

 I normally ski B2 at 55kmh into 13m, havent really tried anything else.

 cheers

Ali

[h2odawg79]

Man, this thread could have been So much more fun in the middle of winter! Alright everyone, lets practice abstinence and save up all of our ZO Hormones until at least January! -it'll be a real Hoot!!!

[skibug]

Tried B1 tonight behind our 09 MC 197 TT just for grins...not happening, hook up was too late, wasted 2 passes.  Went back to C1 and things were right with the world.

[Chef23]

Ali, I don't know where I fit into this spectrum but I don't fit the light slower skiers as I am 230 lbs and ski at 34 mph and I ski A2 and ski the same behind ZO in tournaments as I do at home in practice behind PP and Stargazer. I haven't skied a ton of different settings because I don't get a lot of ZO practice sets but it works for me.

 

Even though I don't ski super deep shortline (into 35 off on occasion) I have been told that I do have pretty good body position and technique so I don't know if that makes a difference on settings. I have tried B a little and like A better but I haven't skied C at all.

[ForrestGump]

I was an A1 for the last year. But one day in practice in may, I ran a PB. At the end of the lake, Mueller asked me how that felt. He then told me he'd switched me to c3 that entire set.  Since then I've ended up on C1 for the most part. 

[Ed_Obermeier]

Aaaaaggggg!  Too much confusion!!  I want my PP Classic back......

[Than_Bogan]

scotchipman - I feel similarly, although I think the weight ranges overlap a little and you need to factor in pulling style.  A guy who was 5'4" 170 with a lot of muscle would most likely want 2, but a scrawny finesse skier like me (6'2" 170; routinely get out-bench-pressed by women) is probably going to prefer 1.  In fact, I find 2 to be overpowering, and 3 just feels stupid -- like the boat is trying to injure me.

I can't even really tell the difference between A1/B1/C1, although my performances were just a hair better on B1 so I stuck with it.

Anything at 2 or 3 feels completely different (and bad).

[ForrestGump]

The stronger I get techniquie wise, the more I feel I want to go from c1 to c2.

[bmiller3536]

"At B-1 is there much "risk " that it will pull you out of position?  NO "

If you are in good position no, but if your body is in terrible position than yes there is risk to get pulled out of position with any setting, A1, C3 or F29.

I have taken headers using all settings and even with PP classic, trying to say one setting is more 'riskier' than the other is hogwash and to suggest that you have to ski C3 in order to get the best results because you claim that is is more 'riskier' is bologna as well

Do you get more reward running a -28 on C3 than you do B1?....probaly not but the risk was higher according to you and you got the same reward

Do you get more reward running -39 on C3 than you do B1?...probaly not but the risk was higher according to you but you got the same reward

 

 

 

[Marco]

I think you are missing the point Ed is trying to make.  The reward is not running the pass, it is getting early and high on the next buoy.  I completely agree with Ed.  When I am in perfect skiing position, C2 gets me set up for the next buoy better than any other setting I have tried.  That is the reward.  Do I ski C2 at tournaments?? No, because I am not always in good position at the finish of the turn, and I don't want to run the risk of getting pulled out the front when I could use a more forgiving setting like A3.

[Ali]

Aaagghhhhhttp://www.ballofspray.com/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-surprised.gif, I want to drive PP skiers who are not shortline who probably wont be able to feel a difference with cold water and the beginning of the season feelings. Is there 1 setting fits all?

 

Ali

[Than_Bogan]

Non-shortline I've heard a lot of people say A2 feels like PP.

But, at the moment, the answer is a flat "no" -- there is not 1 setting that fits all.

[Horton]

Ahhhaaa Crap. I was wrong again. Boats at Diablo or water at Diablo B2 is way better then A3.

[skibug]

.....maybe go to C1....earlier; but, softer than B2, the softer pick up will offset the earlier pickup.....or just go to A1 for the hell of it :)

[baja]

"I have taken headers using all settings" ......... To the risk/reward denial crowd... apparently all too true.....Not my place to say, but too good a set up to pass on.

[Chef23]

Ali, try A2. I run deep 32 off regularly and into 35 on occasion and find A2 works fine for me. I practice behind PP and ski tournaments behind ZO and have the same performance for both.

[Horton]

OK last idea .....

I am comming around to the fact that if I get a practice ride behind a boat I can adjust. Maybe we just need practice rides behind the exact boat we will get in the event.

I am sick of crying about ZO. I just want us all to ski good and get back what is important.

[Horton]

One more thing. I talked to Will Bush last weekend. He gets it. He knows a lot of skiers are bummed. There are no promises but there is "Stuff" going on in the background.

[Than_Bogan]

It's a relatively new algorithm, so of course it can be better, and it's great to know that it will be better.

I keep forgetting to mention that one silver lining of the ZO Mandate is that with everyone skiing behind it, feedback is generated much faster.  If anybody who didn't like it at first could just ski with PP, then ZO wouldn't improve very fast because only those who already liked it would be using it!

Personally, I still consider the ZO Mandate to have come a little too soon and been a little too drastic, but I do recognize that it HAS had some benefits.  And I can argue that in a few seasons from now we'll be in a better place because of it.

I generally don't think about, but I must admit it crossed my mind when I set a new personal best behind ZO.  That made me feel like I had conquered an additional challenge.

[6balls]

I believe we make too much of ZO once you have a decent setting for ourselves.  First tourney (first time skiing it) I let it in my head and had no idea what to choose.  Now no sweat...I ski PP at home on SN 196, SG on a MC 197TT w/my brother, and ski a tourney puddle w/ZO.  I have similar scores on all...though my only successful 38's this year are on ZO, despite it being the least frequent system I ski. 

[Jody_Seal]

My first experiance with zo was out in bakersfield at the nationals when ZO and Nautique were offering rides over on another lake I went from 2 bouys at 35  one day with PP to being tossed up on the bank twice at 22off  in less than 24 hours with ZO. To me nothing has changed in the four years since, still do not like the ZO feel and prefer to ski with PPclassic or Star Gazer whenever I get the chance. Just now starting to get consistant with 28 off and ZO and have run 32 a couple of times with ZO, can run same times with my buddies Nautique 206 and Star Gazer and get up the line at 35 with out the feeling of getting Zoomed!!!! Still would like the RPM option D for ZO!!!PLEASE!!!!

[Horton]

I did not say there was a new algorithm. Will did not tell me anthing like that. I am not holding some big secret, I just know there is some energy in the background to make things better.

Jody,

Man I am with you... I am just trying to be more calm about my horror. I tried complaining for 3 years. Now I am asking if there are solutions.

[Than_Bogan]

Whoops -- I didn't mean there is a NEW algorithm, I meant the existing algorithm is still relatively new.  (I edited to attempt to clarify.)

That's why I am quite confident it can be made better, and if folks are actually working on it, then it will.

[Jody_Seal]

Horton,

 The sad thing is no one is listening to solutions being brought forth, the guy's that are on top and a can ski with the thing could care less about those that are struggling with the system, Then their are the ones that say I can ski better with Zo and struggled with PP so now thats what you get! But bottom line is that ZO does not do what it is intended to do from boat manufacturer to boat manufacture nor is the system equal for all skiers, an RPM baised option along with the GPS control is a great option D for those that have not been able to adapt to the ZO speed baised type pull or the skiers that do not have access to the ZO system for practice. Doing whats good for the sport is not in the best interest of the manufacturers, they for the most part could give a rats 2cents worth about our sport as whole. Not enough margin on ski boats! They could request a option D RPM baised mode from ZO. I have talked to the ZO engineer /programer many timess about it, They have ability to do it right now but will not until the manufacturers ask for it.. Our orginzation is to afraid of loosing licenseing dollars by demanding another option, I wonder how much $$$ was lost to non re-new of memberships due to this issue? 

Ski Light!!!! How the heck does a 200 pounder ski light????

ZOOM!!!!

[jlittle]

My $.02... I hate the bureaucracy behind Zero Off.  It's total BS how it was forced on us.  Somewhat forced by the boat mfrs & the developers of the system but more so the governing body of our sport telling us they have no control over it and there is nothing they can do.  Total BS.  Or at this point it should be, had no control and nothing we could've done.  It’s here to stay so I hope somebody can figure out how to bring those of us along who rarely ski behind it.  If I could spend $2k and add it to my boat I’d do it in a heart beat.  But I don’t have $50k lying around to play this game.  I’ll stick with my current set up and stay away from tournaments for now.  But that’s a dangerous game as I probably will never return to skiing tournaments.  No biggie right?  Most of you won’t miss me anyway.

[Horton]

No, We miss every skier that does not ski tournements.