looking for input on hardshells

[PT Mike]

Ankle issues (back foot) cut my season short last year. After 2 months of PT produced lousy results I went to a specialist,got an MRI,I'm back in PT,and wearing a custom made Richie Brace which totally supports/encapsulates my ankle. Hardshells seem the best option for ankle support and i have the option of having a custom orthotic made for the hardshell. I'm currently looking into the Fogman set up w/ the G-10 plate. Any input on this set up or on the transition to hardshells would be greatly appreciated. Stats: Currently on a D3 nomad (white top) dbl.leverage bindings, tourney PB is 1@35

 

Thanks

[RichardDoane]

after repeated ankle sprains/breaks, I used Fogmans for a couple of years with good results

[scoke]

 

PT Mike, That's some serious dedication and inspiration man. Very impressive.

 Personally i would take a hard look at Goode Powershells as they are consistent releasers. If you stick the tip (my typical falls), the entire plate peels from the back off the ski to the point of little lateral twisting or pressure on the ankles. Of course, in all bindings, there is a risk on a wildcard type of fall. I rehabbed from a torn ACL and had to choose a new binding system. After quite a bit of watching guys ski and fall, i went with the powershells as i couldnt risk retearing my new cells in the rebuilt ACL.

Unfortunately down here, most of the guys that rode fogmans, now refer to them as fogmanglers and are on powershells while still having long term ankle issues from the old bindings.

[Wish]

I am sceptical of low cuff hard shells. Seems to me that the higher the cuff, the better protection as the load would be transferred to a stronger portion of the leg. Not just slightly above the ankle. I've seen several companies going to this low cuff approach over the years. Some even cutting down the cuff and then selling them. And at the same time coming up with various release systems. Don't see any snow ski boots with low or thin ankle support material. If it is a double boot, higher/thicker/stiffer cuff with good forwaed flex (not beyond ankle crush) and does not release, what body part takes the load? My thought is your legs stay together as one unlike snow skiing. Twisting and torqueing is transferred higher where there are much larger muscle groups, ligaments and bones. IMHO. Snow boarders do not release. I know skiers that put enough Interlock on their Goode plate that they never release. I believe there are significant advantages to hard shells in performance. I build my own.

[Not_The_Pug]

Take a look at the Fluid Motion boots.  www.jagersports.com  They have a bunch of different options and different release types.  I switch to their boot for my trick ski and was very impressed with the quality and performance over my Reflex boot.

 There are a lot of options out there, check them all out.

 Kevin

[PT Mike]

Thanks guys. I was on the Reflex site, is this something new? I thought the rear boot was permantly attached to the ski?

[ForrestGump]

The problem with the double release Reflex is that the front Silveretta release does not allow the back boot to get very close to the front.  If you get it too close, the release won't work correctly. Someone that's really tall might be ok with that.

[MattP]

PT Mike you can get a reflex system with the rear binding permanently attached to the plate. I think it is called the R-Style on their website

[eleeski]

Interesting brace. Mount that directly to an interlocked plate and you might have a pretty cool rear foot binding.

Hardshells really help tricks. I'm not sure I've ever seen a jumper on hardshells. Slalom is an interesting application.

I use double hardshells. I believe that I pay a bit of a performance penalty over rubber due to excessive stiffness - but that is offset by the comfort factor. Loads in slalom waterskiing are transferred through the bottom of the foot to the whole ski - not angulated to an edge like snow skis. So ankle support is not a critical issue for slalom performance. However as a response to an injury, they may help a lot.

One performance issue with hardshells for me is that the rear foot doesn't move enough. I used to run the cuff of the rear hardshell clipped in loosely to allow movement. A fall with a partial release from the rear foot hurt (but didn't damage) my ankle. So now I  remove the clip and rubber band the rear cuff. This allows ankle flexibility and allows a release when needed. Note that I build my own hardshells and use a sacrificial gatorade lid release that blows up in a big fall - or around 2 ball for no good reason at Regionals.

Powershells are Goode (ha ha) and lots of skiers use them in double boots effectively. They offer good support and the rear spring thingy adresses some of my rear foot movement needs. They might work very well for a damaged ankle. Kirk solved his interlock pre release problem (on rubber boots using interlock to attach the plate to his Goode ski) with a hybrid gatorade/interlock system. For his new ski (Z7 with inserts) he is on Radar boots and loves the performance, comfort and safety. I don't know if Radars are appropriate for your specific ankle issues as they are not true hardshells. Reflex boots offer good support and are great for a skier using a rear kicker but I don't see too many double Reflexes (scary potential release characteristics?). FM makes a great trick binding but I haven't seen a double slalom setup from them (check their website?). I haven't seen Fogmans recently. Early adopters loved them but the early ones I saw were heavy and had release issues. Still, my first ride on Fogmans convinced me to switch to hardshells. A surprising number of hardshells are custom setups - and many have no release capacity (note that the shells are not that strong and might break before injuring you in energetic falls - I can't tell you how many shells I've broken).

You have an interesting situation. I'd definitely get off tight rubber boots with a damaged ankle. But be ready to spend time and money to find a good replacement. And nothing will be perfect. Good luck.

Eric

[Horton]

Darn what happened. Now Eric is giving good advise (Not the part but the gatorade top). I am lost.

[RichardDoane]

JTH - remember one of the most important BOH covenants, "no bashing", when referring to Eric's love of the homegrown waterski..

[lpskier]

As a 10 plus year Fogman user, I can attest to their performance. I have never had a safety issue, but then again I keep them properly adjusted and replace parts when they seem worn. It seems to me your issue may be fitting your device in the binding. I'm sure it will fit, but the question is will you need a front binding of one size and a rear binding of another in order to get a proper fit on both feet. You'll need to try some on to see. And I would think about wearing a leg condom over the brace to reduce drag. Good luck!

[vtjc]

PT Mike, Sorry to hear about your injury. I hope you’re able to have a great season this year.

I skied in Fogman’s for three season, prior to that I had HO Animals and Goode Hardshells. My PB is 6 @ 32’ at 36mph. I sprained my ankle badly in them during the summer of 07, and in 08 I broke the talus in my right ankle in them, I ski RFF. In 09 after losing the release mechanism further, had already loosed them in 08 following sprain in 07, I sprained my ankle again and vowed to find new bindings. I have been skiing in Radar Strada boot every since and have been very happy. I am a former alpine ski racer, so I do miss the tight fit of the Fogman Hardshells.  But I feel I have a better chance of releasing from the Strada’s when needed. Another ski partner who broke his ankle in Animal’s has liked the Strada’s as well. Out of my group of ski partners many have broken or injured there ankles.  One broke in rubber boots and now skis with Goode Powershells while another broke his ankle in Powershells and now skis in Whiley’s…

If you decide to go with the Fogman’s I have a plate and release units for sale:
http://www.ski-it-again.com/php/skiitagain.php?topic=Search&postid=11824 This have minimal use.

I am encouraged companies seem to be dedicating more energy to binding development, and I hope safer and better skiing systems are in our future.

Jamie

[KM]

Forgive me if this sounds stupid, but what exactly is a hybrid Gatorade/Interlock system?

[ForrestGump]

KM, Thats eleeski-speak for his jerry-rigged, redneckesque binding clamping system. LOL

[ral]

PT Mike,

that setup is a double Reflex, has been in the market for some time, but right now is is starting to be used more and more. I guess that you would want is a hardshell that is higher cut rather than lower, as they will transfer the load higher into the leg and not to the ankle.

[eleeski]

Interlock holds the plate down over the length of the plate. But there are stress concentrations at the ends of the plate which can start peeling up the plate. Some skiers use extra interlock or grippier combinations of interlock at the ends. I never got that figured out and the pure Interlock system pre released all the time.

My trick ski bindings are held down by multiple sacrificial washers covering oversize holes (~1/2") for the #8 screws. When I fall needing a release, the washers break and the binding is free to depart the ski. Unscrew the screw from the inserts in the ski and reinstall the binding using new breakable washers. The best material (for me) for the sacrificial washers is from old Gatorade lids (when Kirk was little he used rubber faucet washers). My trick ski bindings work very well.

Kirk's hybrid Gatorade/Interlock plate used a minimal amount of interlock and the extra hold down force at the ends was from a couple of gatorade washers over screws. He had rubber boots so the plate never came off - ever. The Goode ski ended up with only 4 holes total. Adjustments would have been easy (make the oversized holes oversized slots) but we didn't play with too much as the ski worked well for him until he outgrew it.

I have not used the Hybrid Gatorade/Interlock system for Powershells. I cannot reccommend what materials to use for washers nor how much Interlock to use. While the idea might have merit, a lot of trial and error will go into figuring out safe and optimal combinations. I took countless falls with some pre releases and some no releases to dial in my trick ski parameters. Cold water still messes things up for the trick release.

If you do try to make this work, hold Horton harmless (and me too). R&D is risky and binding releases especially so. Maybe this is why he bans me?!

Eric

[Bdecker]

I am not an interlock fan because it is a very unpredictable release. Because it is the only attachment of the binding to the ski, you're forced to err on the side of pre-release or no release. I've gone through 2 years of rehab on my left (front) ankle after a nasty crash in 09 where it released late because I used too much. I'm now the FM Quattro single plate and have been very happy so far because I don't have any fear of pre-release and thus don't need to run the spring crazy tight. You can test release them on dry land because the tension of the spring really isn't even a factor until you are out of skiing position. A bit of a pain to adjust and the mounting wasn't quite as clean as I expected for the money, but overall I have been happy and have tested the release plenty...

[PT Mike]

Thanks for all the input. I don't have any first hand experience W/hardshells so all the info is helpful. I'm tossed between the Fogmans & FM Quattro. Not looking foward to spending all this money just to see if i can ski this spring but i don't have to many options. I'm in the NYC area, not excactly the waterski meca of the world.

I thought about putting something together from used stuff but like I said no firsthand experiance whatsoever. I'm also under the gun a little.

I need to purchase something soon and get the new smaller orthotic made before mid April when we head down to Okeeheelee for a week of skiing. I plan on making some calls today & checking on return policies for unused stuff. Like lpskier pointed out i might need a larger size boot for the orthotic.

Wait a sec, lpskier? I saw this somewhere on here, John W?   Rui?

Could be just a brain fart.

[rfa]

PT Mike????   Mike who/where?

yes Rui here...like LPskier  (JW), I too, have been on Fogmans for about 8 years...first the blue ultra-wheels, now the red diablos...100% satisfaction to date! No pre-releases and zero "no-releases" when needed. (I think i posted once before that in all my realeases i did not even realize the ski was gone until lookin down at my feet)  Yes, I keep hardware lubricated and check release spring tension (position) from time to time.

I suspect (but have no experience) that all hardshells are comparable in confort and may be skiability...for me, the fogmans release system is the key factor, only because I "understand it" mechanically, whereas i don't velcro (nothing negative about velcro, just not for me)

lastly, i have had fogmans screwed directly into the ski (eight new holes on the ski - "mean" thing to do to anew ski...), and  with an adapter plate, which screws into the standard inserts. I cannot tell the difference from a skiability perspective (but then, i am not good enough to detect subtlel changes)

Most important (which I should have said up front) best of luck with your injury!

rui

[Steven]

PT Mike

Have you looked at the FM Z Series? They have the same type of release as the Radar boot but its a hard shell not a hybrid. If you're coming from a rubber boot it would probably be easier to get used to. I've owned the Quatro's since 2005 and they have worked flawlessly! Theyre kind of a pain to set up though. The Z Series just screws into your existing holes. If you want more ankle support without changing the release characteristics. Just replace the 1" strap that's provided with a larger more rigid strap.. These things are simple durable and are priced right!

[Steven]

Also I forgot to mention that you can get replacement shells for $85.00 in case you needed to use a larger shell to accommodate your brace. Just a thought. Good luck with your search and I hope you get to ski this year!

[PT Mike]

Rui, I met you at regionals @ Twim Lakes in 07? Also  last  year @ the Wolfboro tourney in August. I was helping you on the dock W/ handle changes.

Iv'e been pretty busy looking into all of the products everyone been suggesting. Still leaning towards the Fogmans.

Mike

[rfa]

Of course I remember you Mike!

Good luck with the ankle and choosing the bindings

 Hope to see you again this summer

 rui

[lpskier]

PT Mike, ah, Pony Tail Mike, of course! Life is funny. I was thinking of you this evening as I was driving home from court in the central Adirondacks and passed the road to Daggett Lake. Sorry to hear about the ankle.

Email me and I will give you Terence Fogarty's contact information. He can help you out on the sizing question and answer any other questions you may have about the binding. wilkins at northnet dot org

You can mount directly to the ski, or you can mount to an aluminum or G10  plate and attach the plate to the ski using the normal insets.

Rui and other Fogman users: You also want to watch the nylon blocks for wear. The circular indent can become oval or chip, resulting in the release pin no longer fitting snugly in place. If they get worn, replace them. Depending on how much you ski, replacing them every year or two  is to be expected. You can get parts from Fogman or any Fogman dealer, such as H2Osmosis.

I am planning on being at the July 9 ELR at Twin Lakes, and maybe the June 19 C. Hope to see you then!

 John