My Impressions of the Ventral Wing

[jdarwin]

 

Although it’s early in the season and I’m not cutting the rope past 32, I did feel a few differences using the ventral wing.

 

1. The tip engages quicker on the glide for the gates. This makes sense because the wing is supposed to raise the back of the ski and lower the tip. I had to change my position on the ski in the glide. Not a bad thing – just different.

2. The tip stays down thru my on-side turns (1,3,5). The turns are “snappier” due to the tip engaging better.

3. Again, I did not experience the same tip rise on my off-side turns and found I could “push” at the backside of the turn without the tip of the ski rising.

 

The above became evident when I found myself having to scrap-out an off-side turn. Typically, I overturn the ski, the tip comes up and I’m in the water. Not the case with the ventral wing. The ski moved the turn in spite of my actions and moved across course. If I am in good shape and running an early line, it may have positive benefits that I’m unaware of. But when I resort to my old back foot ways, it does compensate for my lack of skill.

 

Overall, I felt the wing kept the ski more stable and allowed me to “back-foot” my turns without the usual tip rise. The ski felt more engaged during the entire pass. No downside I can see using the wing. I’m certain that as I get stronger and begin to cut the rope past 32, the benefits of the ventral wing will become more evident. That’s about all I remember since MS made me drink way too much beer this weekend and my memory is a bit foggy.

 

[Jim Neely]

Joe,

 

Are you using only the ventral wing or in addition to the normal wing?

[jdarwin]

In addition to the stock wing. Ventral wing is positioned 5/8" from the bottom of the ski and 3.5" from the back edge of the fin.

[block]

Would you mind taking a pic of your setup at your convenience? I have had my ventral all over the place ; I would like to see how yours looks.

Thanks

[MattP]

Now I want to try one of these things....

[jdarwin]

I forgot I took a picture w/ my phone of the wing on my ski. Pic attached.

[KM]

Is the 3.5" from the back edge of the ski to the back edge of the ventral wing?

[Bud Man]

I wonder how a combination wing would work. The blades could be bent down like the ventral wing and you could adjust the forward angle as done now with a typical wing.

 

Is there someone out there that can explain the dynamics of the ventral wing better than what I read about? I don't understand jet talk. It was over my head. (in more ways than one)

 

Schnitz, are you reading this? You have probably experimented with ski stuff as much if not more than anyone. Can you chime in?

[DanE]

Obrien did just that some 10 years ago.

The Mapple came with that kind of wing from the factory and fwiw I always felt that ski worked better with the bent wing.

[Schnitz]

OK Bud Man,

 

About 1983, WaterSki magazine ran a photo of one of my fins with dual tubes rather than dual wings. I found that the upper tubes/wings controlled deceleration and the lower wings controlled the turn so dual wings/tubes go way back to the beginning. As for the philosophy behind the Ventral’s, I have no idea. To me, they just look like more drag that will allow you to pull too long! As for Joe Darwin testing something at 32 off, I don't feel it's a real test. Whenever I would test anything on my ski, I always went "upstairs" to my hardest passes to see if the change was better or worse. I really don't care how a ski feels on a warm up pass. It needs to perform at the top! I'll gladly test one if someone will send it to me along with the mounting and tuning instructions. To do this, I will have to destroy a $70.00 fin!

[jdarwin]

KM - yes, the 3.5" is from the back of the fin to the back of the ventral wing.

 

Schnitz - thanks for clarifying that my "first impression" was not a "real test". I feel much better now.

[JC McCavit]

One more time. Where do I get one of these Ventral Wings? I am not good enough to test such a devise, but I would like to play with it.

[Horton]

They have disappeared... will be for sale again soon.... I assume

[Schnitz]

Joe,

 

I meant to praise your skiing abilities! I know you are capable of running 39 off. Smart ass comments are why you don't see me on these boards any more! See ya!

[skidawg]

JD is just putting out first impressions, don't get upset, you threw out the first smart comment. That's why this forum is here to share info, not tell someone they don't know what they are doing.

[Old MS Accout]

Richard,

Get one and try it on your Strada and get back to me on how it works.

[Ed_Johnson]

I would like someone to try this fin on a Schnitz Speed Slot Fin and post the results. I have found this to be the best fin I have ever used and currently have it on the Goode Mid-Ride.

 

Thanks, ED

[Horton]

I am looking forward to try the smaller version.

[DW]

JD, how wide is the wing (by length I mean distance from fin to tip)?

[jdarwin]

DW - not sure, but the smaller version is the one I'm using. I was told it performed better than the larger version.

[skiep]

Going to try my Ventral today. Chet said mount it 4" forward from rear of fin and 7/16" from bottom of ski and flat.

JD send me his location but I decided to use Chet"s #'s Keith Albritton

[Bud Man]

jdarwin,

The picture looks like a large wing was cut down to a small one. And, the front edge looks kind of jagged. Does it look like that to you in person?

 

[jdarwin]

Bud Man - not sure if my wing was cut from larger stock but the edges are clean - the camera on my phone is not the best at capturing detail. I used one of my wife's emery boards (5/8" wide) as a spacer. Probably not the most accurate but it worked out well.

 

My wing is mounted 3.5" from the rear of the fin and 5/8" from the bottom of the ski (per Chad Scott via Chet Raley). Scoke's is 4" from rear and 5/8" from bottom (per Chet Raley). I'm uncertain as to why the numbers are inconsistent but I'm not convinced that it really matters.

[MAD11]

They both look like Schnitz wings either cut down for the front and bent down for the rear back wing. (at least probably where the first ones came from.) Have enough of those I can make one here. I can't get OB's pic to open. Anyone else having that problem?

[Bud Man]

I posted this question the other day and don’t see it, so I think I clicked on “Back to Discussion” instead of “Post Comment” after I typed it. So, I will ask it again and try harder to click on the right spot this time.

 

I wonder what would the effect would be on a ski if you just put a bolt and nut through your fin to create drag. Would some drag on the back of your ski cause the front of the ski drop some? Would a thicker fin have a similar effect? Does more length give you more tip pressure? Engaging the tip sounds like it could be a good thing, but is more drag a good thing?

 

I know at times I feel like I create too much speed and need something to kill it. I try to create only what I need to get outside the buoy at the right time, but as the line shortens and the adrenaline increases, and the thinking slows down; what I want to do, and what I do, are sometimes two very different things.

 

Is adding drag compensating for the effect of a problem? If that is the case, then should we instead be better off to fix the problem by just not getting that extra speed in the first place?

 

These are just random thoughts.

 

I’m heading out now to ski my first round in the April Virtual tournament. I will post my results shortly. I have butterflies right now.

 

[GreggyC]

So, having been on the Ventral since the beginning, here are a few things you should know:

 

1.) For the past year they have been machined not chopped from existing stock

2.) It doesn't raise the tail, a traditional wing brings the tail down

3.) The goal was to increase traction and stability without increasing drag (think of bank angle on an airplane, the steeper the bank the less vertical lift a wing can generate, same is true for a fin, the greater the bank/edge under load, the less effective the fin will be, yet the angle of the ventral is such that it is fully engaged when on edge...thus the traction)

4.) Without the drag and the tail being pulled down, the ski rides more on plane (level) thus making it easier to engage the rocker ( no need to press forward) when balanced on the ski when rounding the ball, thus the snappier turns. The other advantage to not having the drag is you don't get as much load ='s speed at Zero off. So the variation in speed (top to bottom) is narrower which ='s predictability and a higher % of a tight line at the ball.

5.) The Ventral turned down creates tracking and stability, the ventral turned up allows for more roll and actually creates drag as the water gets trapped between the base of the ski and the ventral...think of squeezing more volume of water through a hose...it takes pressure to do so. So the closer the inverted ventral is to the base of the ski, the more pressure/drag is felt (without raising the tip).

6.) So, most folks that are using the ventral that I have seen lately are using three (two small & one large). A small ventral mounted forward to plane (level) the ski, a large ventral mounted inverted to trap drag, and a small ventral mounted deeper on the fin for traction. If I were a short line skier 38 or better, I think I would like this a lot...the ski is definitely stickier to the water and felt very stable. I use two ventrals (both down) and love the traction and the freedom of movement.

 

Since I have been on the ventral I have moved up 2 passes in one year...now getting into 38 sometimes skiing twice a week 2-3 sets. It's not for everybody, but having watched many of the top level skiers that come thru Chet's, it's pretty amazing to see how well it works for them.

[Bud Man]

@GregB

Can you post a close up picture of your fin please sir?

And, what is your speed?

Also, is there a chance you could post a picture of a fin with three?

Thank for your post and thank you very much ahead of time for your help.

Bud

 

P.S. Are people taking their standard wings off?

What setup is Chet using?

[GreggyC]

Bud,

 

I won't be at the lake until this weekend, will see what I can do for your picture request.

 

34 MPH

 

The use of a standard wing dropped off about 3 months ago when it was determined that an inverted ventral provided the needed/wanted drag on a short line.

 

Chet now uses three started about 3-4 mos ago.

 

Hope that helps. Keep in mind that although there have been changes, the core principles have not changed. It is more of a function of figuring out how to optimize the positive attributes.

 

I know there are some smarter people than me researching this and will likely post here. I have tried to stay out of the fray as I am close to the process and am biased to the product. With that said, the attributes described independently are an accurate reflection of the benefits of the Ventral. If people are getting better results when they ski well, then they should just focus on skiing well and ski with confidence knowing that the ski will perform better...my two cents.

 

G

[Bud Man]

Thank you Greg,

I will look forward to your pictures, and have a nice weekend.

Bud

[Horton]

The one test I did not work for me but... this is very cool stuff.

[Steven_Haines]

I'm curious as to how it mounts to the fin as it would need to be adjustable to allow it to remain in plane with the bottom of the ski after a fin change/adjustment. Or am I missing the point of the ventral wing? Is this a set it and forget it type of product that once its set, you'll want to leave it alone? Very interesting product! This is proving to be an interesting year for R&D!

 

[DW]

Greg B, nice post, thanks for the info on the Ventral. Looking forward to seeing the pics. Are you indicating that the "inverted" Ventral wing is mounted towards the rear of the fin and close to the ski? Inverted would mean tip closer to ski bottom than the root or fin intersection surface.

[GreggyC]

The Ventrals are mounted parallel to the base of the ski. Once set...you are done. Takes about 5 minutes to drill once you know where you want them. My fin looks like swiss cheese from trying different placements etc...and skis fine.

 

The one thing noticeably absent is calipers. For whatever reason all of the angst over depth and tip is mute. Very little time spent on that with the ventrals.

 

Yes, the "inverted ventral" mounted near the rear of the fin and the tips/wings are bent toward the base of the ski. Think of it this way, under load, the concave of the ski channels the water to the tail which increases pressure. The water is being deflected off the base of the ski, with the ventral it essentially traps that water just enough to increase drag without changing the pitch or plane of the ski. The more the ski is on plane, the easier it is to roll on to edge and engage the rocker. The normal ventrals then provide the needed traction along with the edge of the ski.

[Bud Man]

@GregB

I feel I’ll have a better understanding upon viewing your pictures when available, but in the meantime, how close are the end tips of the inverted vw to the bottom of the ski? I read above that the recommended placement for the front vw was 7/16”. I take it that as the top edge of the base plate.

 

I am interested in this and am enjoying your post. Thank you.

 

[thager]

Isn't marketing wonderful? P.T Barnum would be proud!

[GreggyC]

Bud,

 

I don't have the measurements, will look this weekend. Since I don't run an inverted, I didn't really bother to check. With that said, the narrower the spacing the higher the drag. There is a boundary layer of flow that conforms to the base of the ski and the bottom of the inverted ventral, when they converge, they increase drag. It is something akin to what pilots refer to as "ground effect". As a plane approaches the surface, part of the deflection from the wings reflect back to the wings and creates a cushion that creates a little extra lift in that zone...I am sure there fluid dynamics folks out there that can explain this better than me. Unfortunately we don't have wind tunnels and the ability to test pressures under load and different angles of attack to model this out, but the principles apply.

 

Chet really spent an inordinate amount of time testing and proving these things out, different shapes, sizes and placements. Since i was willing to play with these things along the way, I had an interest in trying to understand what was happening and relate it to things I had some knowledge about in aviation. It has been a fun experience.

 

G

 

 

[Steven_Haines]

Very cool! Thank you for your explanations.

[acmx]

I'm sure that when it becomes the "Power Wing" it will cost twice what Chet was charging

[skidawg]

"got mine-not painted black and orange yet"

[CsSkis]

I've tried to stay out of this one, but I can't take it any longer.

 

Water is an incompressible fluid (unless you have a lot of cantaminates). Therefore, there isn't any "ground effect". Sorry.

 

It is my opinion that the ventral wing provides additional lift at the tail. As it is fully immersed, it is acting as a (small) hydrofoil. Bear in mind, I'm not saying that it isn't helping some people in their skiing. Plus, I have a lot of respect for Chet Raley.

[Bud Man]

Is this the big or the small vw.

/vanilla2/uploads/FileUpload/17/677.jpg

[Wish]

What's the angle of the wing itself?? We know it's not 90 degrees.

[Horton]

closer to 45

[GreggyC]

Have photos will post later today. Bud, your photo is a large Ventral. The small is about 1/3rd the size. Chet's inverted and small forward ventral are about 7/8" froom the base of the ski, the small ventral deeper on the fin is 1-7/8" from the base...0 Degreee angle. The inverted ventral is 1'2" from the back of the fin. I think the other postings on positioning are correct....seems I just conffirmed what Chet has told others.

 

 

[Steven_Haines]

Are these going to be available for purchase soon? My concern is that the only way to get one is if it's attached to a new Goode. I guess time will tell.

[GreggyC]

Photos as promised...two of Chet's one of mine.

 

I think part of the reason Chet worked with Goode was so that all could access...easier for Goode to stock and distribute.

[Ed_Johnson]

Greg,

 

Thanks for the photos. Do you know if Chet is using the wings added to a Goode Fin or is that a special fin? Also, is Chet on the Nano Mid and how does he compare it to the 9900 Mid he was on before?

 

Thanks, ED

[GreggyC]

I am pretty sure it was a stock fin...likely a Goode.

 

He is now on the Nano. Watched him run 39 this morning. The ski is faster than his other, he likes the symmetry of the ski. He is still dialing it in, but says he won't go back.

 

Greg

[Bud Man]

Thank you for the great pictures and information @GregB.

 

Which Nano is Chet on? Mid would be my guess. But there is traditional and wide to choose from.

 

Also, what length and flex?

 

Thank you Greg

[Steven_Haines]

Where do I find the photos that Greg posted? I'm not seeing anything here on my phone???

Thanks,

Steve