New ski vs. Coaching

[S_L]

I was wondering what others have experienced for an increase in ball count with a new ski? It may be the first time out or within skiing a few sets. Is our money better spent on coaching to achive the same/similar results? I understand the benefits of new equipment with technology and the wear and tear on our old equipment. Our skis definitely have a life and when they are done our skiing performance will change. Any thoughts on what your best increased bouy count is with a new ski? Best bouy count with a few sets and a coach? This may be better as a click survey but this is all that I can do.

[Horton]

I can set up a poll but .... coaching unless your gear is really beat

[S_L]

Ok. The refined question would be what is number of bouys picked up with a new ski?

[Chuck_Dickey]

Poll is a good idea.

[Horton]

Depends on how bad the old ski is and your skills.....

[Horton]

I will look at the poll thing...

[Ed_Obermeier]

May not address the question directly but I think it may be pertinent. I got a new Strada at the beginning of last season; struggled getting through 32 off consistantly despite being in mid 35 the season before on a 3 year old MPD. Went down to Matt Rini's in early August after struggling with the Strada all season. Matt watched me run 3 passes and nailed my problem. A week later I was right back in mid 35.

 

IMO good coaching is the best money I've spent on skiing, and God knows I've spent a bunch...

 

Ed

[MattP]

I agree with Ed Coaching is the best way to spend money in this sport.

[Horton]

You could pay me a lot for coaching and not learn a thing

[MattP]

You have to pay the right amount to the right person...

[Horton]

Matt may be right....

 

Send a lot of money to

 

Horton

2412 Lomita Verde

Bako Ca

[MattP]

Looks like I found a new coach! See ya aroud Jodi!

[Ed_Obermeier]

I wrote "IMO good coaching is the best money I've spent on skiing, and God knows I've spent a bunch..."

 

To clarify, I meant that I've spent a bunch of money on SKIING (haven't we all?), not specifically on coaching. I've spent some there too, and I intend to spend a bunch more. On coaching. Soon. Though I'm not sure that sending any of it to Horton is gonna gain me anything. BTW lovin' the Strada, thanks Matt.

 

Ed

 

 

[Bud Man]

I don’t think your question can be answered as posed. I believe it would have to depend on the skier and their equipment. You have to know the problem before you can come up with a solution. Just like you can’t ask what is the best length ski. The answer will be different for different people.

 

If your question was [should an average type skier just buy newer equipment in an attempt to ski better or visit a coach?] I think the answer has already been said, that a good coach should be able to diagnose the equipment and you to come up with an answer. Why throw away money on different equipment in an attempt to get more buoys if that is not the problem. The coach might help you ski better and save you money.

 

Think about it this way: Should you switch your mutual fund or consult a good investment advisor in an attempt to make more money? The advisor might say stick with what you have because it is just as good as any out there. Or he might say switch and you gain a lot of money because of it.

 

[9400]

Or you can stay on your old ski, figure it out on your own (with help from a cast of thousands, read everything, try many things, think about it far to often, watch every good skier, watch every bad skier, ski every chance you get, in every condition known to man)

 

The truth is until you people start buying more houses, apartments, condos, factories, land, pipelines and other engineering related stuff, I can't pay for a new ski or coaching. But I can still afford to ski.

[ral]

As per what I see around me (we can do a poll for this) most skiers that spend money in coaching on a regular basis spend money in skis on a regular basis as well. Then there are some that spend on sticks but not on coaching. Have yet to find some that do not spend anything on gear but do spend on coaching...

[Bud Man]

That is interesting ral. Results from a poll on that could be interesting as well. How would you structure the questions?

[MattP]

How often do you buy a new ski?

How much do you spend on skis a year?

How often do you pay for coaching?

How much do you spend on coaching a year?

 

Something like that?

[Bud Man]

Those are good MattP. I would like to see results from that poll.

 

Even though for me, the first two questions would be hard for me to answer because the ski I bought in 2000, I skied on through 2006. I did try a Monza in 2005, but did not like or keep. I stayed off the water from middle of 2006 through the end of 2009. I tried a bunch of skies in 2010 and settled on a Strada. I am not opposed to trying something else, but I can’t imagine liking something better than this ski.

 

As for coaching that is easy to answer. Never and zero. I realize it is good and I should, but I always manage to talk myself out of it. But I sure am having fun and enjoying skiing.

 

[Bud Man]

OB,

I’m not sure if there are 6 or 7 people around here that would come to ski with a professional coach. There is a small group of enthusiastic slalom skiers a bit up the interstate form here on the other side of Lake Murray that have courses on public water. No ZO boats in that group though. I believe at least two of them are like I am; capable of running 11.25m but can’t bank on it every time off the dock.

 

Then in the other direction about 2 hours is Trophy Lakes and H2oz. Both have nice people and ski schools and of course ZO boats. I’m sort of in no man’s land. Very close to the airport and there used to be a site at the airport leased by The Columbia Water Ski Club, but I don’t think any of them ski any more. I don’t believe there is even a competition ski boat dealer in the Columbia area. Charlotte, NC might be the closest. I am trying to get a volunteer to supply a boat for the areal videoing I am going to be doing.

 

Lake Murray is not too far and is full of wake boards and jet skis. Even though most of the time it is just me skiing and my wife driving, I enjoy if as much as probably a thousand skiers put together.

 

When RJM came here, he wanted to help as many as he could, so I called about everyone that I could think of, and only one person came. He actually came twice and said he was really glad he did. I think I said this before, but the main thing RJM opened my eyes to was realizing that it took less of what I was already doing to get out to the buoys. Nothing really different from what I was doing, just less of it. Light on the line and low load.

 

[Bud Man]

OB,

Both paragraphs make good points.

[6balls]

Budman...no man's land 2 hours from great coaching??? Go ski w/them. Some very good skiers in the midwest became much better w/opportunity and funding for good coaching. At one time I took pride in competing level w/them, but eventually they shot forward. Looking to even the score soon. Have not had as much opportunity as they have, but this forum and skiing w/some first class skiers helps, too.

[Bud Man]

I guess it is perspective. To some that would sound like a short drive, but to me it sounds almost unbearable. The quickest way to get me to drive any where is to help someone. I generally would not do it for me. A while back I made a seven hour round trip in one day just to help out someone.

 

From the other point of view, I wouldn’t think twice about hiking, biking or walking with my wife for two or more hours straight, but that might seem like a long time to others.

 

It is nothing for me to drive in circles around the ski lake cutting grass for five or six hours or walk around the shore for several hours straight, running a string trimmer stopping only to refill the gas tank, but a I will put off taking a short drive to the grocery store.

 

I don’t know why I am that way, but I am.

 

[hogexpress]

For me, 'new' skies made more of difference at the longer line lengths -15-32 off b/c i think they did a good job of 'masking' my poor form by being more forgiving or easier to ski on.

 

At the shorter lengths 35 and 38, coaching and adapting my style/form has been more productive. IMO you are forced to adapt to a more efficient style or form or pull or lean (however you like to think of it) in order to run those passes. A new ski is not going to do it for me.

 

 

[Chef23]

OB, if you set Chet up for some coaching with some advance notice I could schedule a trip to Atlanta for a couple of sets with him. A couple of meetings one day and some skiing the next. I can't believe people wouldn't pay $200 for some coaching at a nice private site.

[Jim Neely]

Ok @Hogexpress, how many new skis have you purchased in the last year and a half?

[lpskier]

@Brent: Ouch!

[hogexpress]

Two, but one was just same ski different length - does that count?

[Jim Neely]

Hog, Sorry you couldn't join us yesterday

[hogexpress]

Thanks, I was being Mr. Mom. Hopefully will get to ski with OB on Sat. Will catch up with you next week when I get back.

[ForrestGump]

Let me throw something out there. For the most part, most of us "know" how to ski. But we don't train our body to do it correctly. Instead, we go out there and run buoys. What improvement would you see, regardless of the ski or coach, if you put together a true training plan that focused you on correcting those mechanics needed to improve your buoy count. I know I give in my left shoulder to the buoy off the 2nd wake into 2/4/6. So why would it make sense for me to shorten the rope into 32 and 35 where that will really start to bite me. Yet, we do that all the time. No amount of coaching is going to fix that for me. I have to choose a training path that fixes it for me.

[Bud Man]

Exhalent point ShaneH,

 

I believe I catch myself saying; I know I am obviously doing “this thing” wrong. I will fix it then think about coaching. I will latter find another “this thing” to fix, and then think about getting some coaching latter. Maybe if I got to the point in watching my videos and saying; I have no clue what is stopping me from skiing better. Then I would get to a coach maybe the next day.

 

I can find so much that I am doing wrong just by comparing my videos to others.

 

My biggest problem is thinking WHILE skiing.

 

[ski6jones]

If you're already on a decent ski then I think good coaching provides more bang for the buck.

 

But what Shane says is true. You can't just go to a coach, then go back to chasing buoys. For me I practice the principles through repetition at a line length I can run with some regularity. My biggest improvements skiing have come from getting coaching followed by repetitive practice. If you don't take time to make the techniques the coach presents a habit then you're probably wasting your money.

 

I can't always break down what I'm doing wrong so I value a good coach.

 

A good ski partner can often tell you what you're doing wrong, but often can't tell you the best way to fix it.

 

A good coach can usually do both.

 

 

[Klinger]

Good coaching is way more than someone telling you what your doing wrong.... A good coach will be able to see what you are doing wrong and also tell you the root cause of that. Most of the time something else is causing the obvious bad action. For basic example, many people have a bad offside turn because they let off the pull too early and don't keep their direction going out. Its easy to see that the turn sucked but harder to see why. Good coaching is worth its weight in gold!!!

[ski6jones]

The best coaches I've had tell me what to do differently and why so I can internalize the change. I also think different people respond to different styles of coaching. I've had people recommend someone they think is a great coach and find I don't click with them at all.

 

My ski buddies (self included) say "Don't do this" and "Don't do that", a good coach says "Do it like this and here is why", or "Think about it like this". They engage your mind in the process and tell you something to DO rather than something NOT to do.

 

 

 

[ForrestGump]

I agree. But only if you are willing and able to put what the good coach tells you into a training plan that builds the muscle memory. That was my point. Too many times, what the coach says goes out the window in an effort to chase buoys.

[Bud Man]

@OB, It seems I remember you getting the mid ride about the same time you started getting coaching from Chet, but I could easily be wrong. I think I remember you posting your first full 11.25m pass and you were at Chet’s on your new mid ride.

 

1) Do you think you would have accomplished that on your previous ski being coached by Chet?

2) Do you think you would have accomplished that with the switch to the mid even without coaching?

3) Do you think it took the new ski and coaching together?

 

I think Chet is a great coach. I think the mid is a great ski. And, I think you are a great skier. So, the answer is not of great importance, but I thought your experience would fit this thread well.

 

[ral]

After reading some of the comments, I would like to make a distinction, in my opinion, about two different things: have a coach/being coached and take lessons from a professional instructor.

 

I think that the original question on coaching was more related to taking lessons from a professional instructor. Like taking ski lessons in a snow ski resort. You will get in general good advice and things that, if done in practice, might increase your buoy count.

 

On the other side, having a coach is something I guess that fewer can afford/commit to. A coach implies permanent presence, and working on a longer term plan. Great coaching would not be about things like what to do and not to do, but about changing the way of thinking/performing to achieve a goal. Change the foundation if needed. Great coaching might take your skiing to another level.

 

 

 

 

[Bud Man]

@ral,

I have been thinking and using the two terms synonymously, but I can see your point. There is also a third word often used, and that is training.

 

What you say makes sense but also raises a question.

 

If someone like Chris Parish were to visit Chet for a couple of sets, would you say he was receiving; lessons, training or coaching?

 

[ral]

It is a good question. In that specific case, I would say that it would be more like when a doctor/psychologist consults a colleague.

[T-fromTO]

I agree with Ral. Lessons are what we get when we go to ski school once or twice a year or attend a clinic.

 

Coaching is what Whitney gets from Matt Rini when she skis there every day for months on end.

 

As for "training", I guess we can all call our skiing "training" if we want to. But that term is probably a little intense for what the majority of us do.

[Bud Man]

After I went to bed last night, I thought of another word we all use and went to post it this morning, and lo and behold, OB used it in his thread. The word is instruction.

 

So we have at least four: instructions, lessons, training and coaching. Even if there is professional courtesy (doctor/physiologist) and no money is involved someone still receives something like diagnosis/treatment.

 

So it could still be pondered; does a pro helping a pro on a one time basis mean they got instructions, lessons, coaching or training. If you asked me, I would have to say without a doubt; maybe he just got a skiing tip. D’oh, now we have five words to choose from!

 

_____________

 

OB, my thoughts as well; short line motivates short line. I would like to have some regular guest that ski short line because I feel everyone would benefit. I’m sure you get the same rewarding feeling that I do when you can help anyone at any line length though.

 

[Old MS Accout]

Post video here and you can get some good feedback. Skiing with people better then you are is also a good way to get tips. Always run video and look at it yourself. You can see what you are doing wrong.

OB, its not the ski, its the skier. If you can put down 38 with a mid, you can do it on a CDX. It may help you be more consistant doing it but buying a mid will not get you 38.

[Old MS Accout]

Practice and more experience at the line will get you over the hump. I have seen the mid help people but it is all in the skier. Of coarse I am not a black and orange guy but I will ride one at some point.

[Razorskier1]

I don't think a new ski has ever made me either better, or worse. Every major improvement in my buoy count has come from coaching by pros, suggestions from other skiers, and the time it took me to put all of it together into a few concepts that make sense to me. Different skis may make it somewhat easier/harder to implement a particular style of skiing, but more than anything if you can figure out the technique, you can get there on just about anything.

[Old MS Accout]

No dice on the white top. I guess I stand corrected but I did see Tyler Scott tear it up on the white nomad.

I just dont want to see someone drop 2k on a ski thinking they will run 38 just by buying it.

Dont sell yourself short, I have seen you ski and you can run 38 on most skis that are out there.

[Razorskier1]

Can't speak to the white top -- I've been on KD, Obrien, Fisher, now Razor. Never been on the black and orange, although I was told when I rode the Fish that others thought it skied a lot like one of those.