Width -- my revelations from last ski season

[Razorskier1]

Had a short back and forth with Horton under a different thread. Figured I'd start this one to share my experience on the Razor last season and hear some others thoughts. I used to work hard for width, keeping on the edge longer and "staying away from the boat" after the second wake. It made sense to me at the time. Now I think it is dead wrong.

 

Last year I started edge changing quicker off the second wake and found that I was getting wider, earlier, with less effort. Why??? I think it goes like this. You can only get so wide. What happens off the second wake isn't getting wide, it is following the arc of the handle. I can't get wider staying on my edge longer, because the rope is only so long, and I can only get so wide. What I discovered is that if I am carrying speed at the second wake, then I need to change edges sooner and follow the path of the handle in its natural arc (keeping the line tight but light) up alongside the boat. Assuming that I have developed the correct speed, this will put me at maximum width (all I need to do is stay faster than the boat) before I get to the next ball. The ski then carves a natural arc back the other direction, gets on edge, I hook up and do it again.

 

Both on my Fisher (through August) and my Razor (September through ice in) I found this strategy to work exceptionally well. I am going outbound on the inside edge in almost the same path as the handle (just slightly wider arc, as that is how you get to the reach point). It is light, easy, and it feels like the ski maintains near constant speed into and out of the turns.

 

So . . . I don't know a better way to describe it than that. Generate speed to the second wake, change edges and keep a tight and light line, ride up (and out) to full width, let the ski come around and do it again. I realize there are lots of theories here and perhaps each fits a particular type of skier. I ran better and more consistent last year with less effort than I ever have in my life. As those who ski with me can attest, I often ran 20 passes of 32s and 35s in a set and never felt tired. I quit because I felt sorry for the driver! I'd love to hear what people think.

[Old MS Accout]

Its all vision. See and do things earlier then you used to. I agree with what you are doing and it should help you stay light also. Good stuff.

[Andre]

"20 passes at 32-35..."

Wow!!!

Gotta try this way of doing it!

[davemac]

on this topic, but first digressing a bit....has it been established... say you are late around 2 and absolutely need to get around 3 ball (but have no intention on trying to make 4, is there anything to gain holding the same edge through and after the wakes almost all the way out to the ball?

I think it was Regina J that did this last year to win a tourney. She made the buoy and had an epic wipeout, even losing her gloves. I wondered if there was any benefit to this...or if it was just instinctive at a moment of desperation (similar to how on a close play, a baseball player occasionally slides into first base, though it is known to be faster to continue running through the bag)

[6balls]

Davemac, I would say desperation.

For Razor1...yeah 20 consecutive passes is a regular occurrence. Part is due to lighter skiing, part due to ridiculous physical endurance.

I might define the release a little differently...as for me I don't mean release my hand...I mean release the lean, edge change...carry outbound w/2 hands until such time as two hands might begin to limit width, then release the hand and obtain the extra width that the reach affords. Running two hands to the approach of buoy line really helped me out...but also had to get off the lean early...basically building the energy and speed that I would ride outbound on the way to the mid-wake like a pendulum or swing would.

Found this especially important if I made a mistake and got locked into a big pull...as soon as I feel that big pressure I'm thinking "get off it, get off it" so I don't hold it too long and just kick it outbound.

Much work to do...but that's what's in my head and works well when I execute.

 

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Razor,

 

Good stuff. Backing up a little, what are you doing different off the ball? Another way to think of this is are you doing something between the ball and the wake that is enabling the result after the second wake?

 

Are you doing anything different with the handle between the second wake and your max width?

 

Did you shorten to 38, and did this technique work there as well?

 

If I understand your comments, it seems like you are trading “max width” for “control”? (a good trade IMO)

[ForrestGump]

If you were to plot out the ski path vs the handle path, it's quite apparent that a small delay in changing edges(let's say 1 ski length) can result in a HUGE loss in space at the buoy.

[Razorskier1]

Hmmm. First, for Bruce, I come off the ball with more speed than I used to. I don't know if this makes sense wording wise, but in order to create the right finish to the turn, I feel like I need to create the right start to the turn, which to me starts right off the second wake. By establishing the arc of the ski off the second wake and going out on the inside edge, I find the ski creates a natural finish rather than me having to "force the finish". Second, yes, I have run 38 this way and while I have been making 38 for years on an inconsistent basis, my consistency at that pass has increased dramatically using this technique. I do agree with you that it is a big increase in control. As I noted in the first post, I am trading "consistent speed" for what used to be an effort to generate maximum speed. Rather than speed up, slow down, speed up, slow down -- I feel like the speed is constant with only slight variations as I hook up, accelerate to the center, then release and glide fast up to the ball.

 

ShaneH -- conventional wisdom would suggest that the early edge change (not releasing the handle, as noted by 6balls) would limit width. I always believed this to be true. In the last year in practice I have found this to be false.

 

Width is a combination of moving out and moving up on the boat. I release the edge when I feel the handle starting to load, which occurs right after the centerline of the pull as the handle is now moving forward and out while the ski and skier are moving straight out (in theory). This reduces the load on the ski and allows it to ride higher and faster as it goes out and up. In practice, what I have found is that this to be false. I am, in fact, both wider and earlier than I was when I pulled longer.

 

MS -- yep, if I think about keeping both my vision and my ski moving at all times (never get "locked in" to a position), the whole thing is awesome. Even in the lean I try to ease into it, and ease out of it rather than feeling like I am just holding the lean.

 

Davemac -- I used to do what Regina did and just pull on the line longer to get around a ball after a mistake and try to get one more that way. Essentially the old "beat the boat" technique. It will get you one more, or maybe a half. Oddly, at least through 38 off, I have found that with this technique if I make a mistake let's say at 3 and am late across the wakes to 4, I will be EARLIER to 4 if after the second wake I actually over-emphasize my edge change and still swing the ski out early. IT is a really weird mindset, but like 6balls said, I just keep telling myself to "get off it, get off it" when I am late across the wakes and then similar to what I said before, I am actually both wider and earlier to the ball than I was in the old days when I would essentially pull all the way to the ball. Instead of being super fast and out of control at the ball, I am in my normal position, but probably just a little further downcourse than usual. I am better controlling my speed.

 

As for Regina's epic wipeout, I can't say whether or not this technique will work at lines shorter than 39. I have run 39 (once) using this technique and when I did it right it felt oddly easy (ZO, private lake, surveyed permanent course). I know it works well through 38 for sure.

[Razorskier1]

Bruce -- one other thing about coming out of the ball. First, because I establish the arc early, I am better at letting the ski completely finish before hooking up. Second, I try to put less load on the line at all times than I used to. Instead of load and unload, it is more like soft lean, medium lean, soft lean, edge change.

[Chef23]

Razor I think being able to do this is a function of angle. If you watch good skiers they have excellent angle out of the ball and this allows for good speed and being able to change edges and carry out to the ball. If you don't have that angle you won't have the speed or direction to carry out.

[Boody]

Razorskier, I really like your comments and can relate to what Nate Smith said in last month's WS. He mentioned being light on the line and changing edges in the same spot even if late. You watch Nate Smith and he is amazingly efficient. The way you describe it makes sense. Thanks for posting.

[bmiller3536]

Razor, are you wearing a powervest? 20 passes in a set is pretty incredible. That must take close to an hour for the set. I see why you would feel bad for the driver. Pulling that stuff in TX on a hot summer day may get you run over by the driver.

Based on our calculation for gas that would be nearly 4.5 gallons of gas burned. Wow

[ForrestGump]

Razor, conventional wisdom would be incorrect to a point. It's because the ski has to transition in an arc from an edge that puts it between you and the handle to a line that puts it outside the handle. The later that transition, the farther downcourse the arc is and the closer the arc comes to the buoy PRIOR to it's apogee. It's simple geometry and physics. Of course, this only applies within a certain window. You can make that transition too soon, in which case you are short on velocity and as a byproduct, width.

[rq0013]

Can you post some video of you so I can understand better how you're doing this.

[ral]

@davemac, pulling almost all the way up to the buoy and then casting out the ski might give you a yard sale, 1/4, 1/2 or 1 extra buoy where a traditional edge change will give you zero if you are extremely late.

[jimbrake]

Razor - when you say "get off of it" referring to your edge change, what does that mean to you exactly? To me "get off of it" sounds like a sort of letting up or standing up, which is not a good thing. Do you actually try to push your ski through it's edge change so that you are "off of" your pulling edge and onto your new turning edge early? I don't imagine you are letting the handle away from your body thru the edge change since you can run 38, so I'd really like to understand what "getting off of it" means to you.

thanks,

Jim

[Old MS Accout]

Bmiller,

He does it in November when the temps are in the 40/50s and any normal persons hands would fall off.

He has a built in powervest developed in the gym.

[Chef23]

OB you bring up a good point it sounds like Razor is a very very strong skier. To ski like he is advocating requires generating a ton of angle right out of the buoy which requires a great deal of strength. I am not sure I am strong enough to ski like that.

[Razorskier1]

jimbrake -- when I say get off of it, that is the point where I "let the boat start winning". In other words, where the edge change initiates. My change from edge to edge is pretty fast, but I am keeping the handle until the boat starts to take that away from me, at which point I can reach on a tight and light line and achieve maximum width as the ski swings out away from the handle.

 

OB and Chef23 -- I am probably at the extreme end of what would be considered a "strong skier". I have attached a picture of me at the starting dock in Waterloo as "exhibit A". At 6 feet tall and 195, I spend summer on the water and winter in the gym, and I can deliver the goods against the boat (too much so). That is why you repeatedly hear me say that I want to ski lighter and lighter. When I turn in for the gates I literally quit leaning the minute I feel handle pressure. I used to pull much harder, and it proved counterproductive. For me to get shorter on the line, the key has been to be lighter and lighter and lighter.

 

Coming out of the ball I have become more patient, waiting for the ski to develop all the angle I want before hooking up. Again, my goal is handle pressure only, and nothing more, while maintaining that angle. This seems to result in much more speed with much less load. In essense I am just trying to hold what the ski gives me and not try to take anything more.

 

I do think that as OB points out there are different styles for different skiers. That's why I like having these threads because I learn a lot from what others are doing out there. I experiment a lot with style, and it has definitely improved my skiing.

 

I haven't been in the course yet this year and only have about 8 open water sets in MN. Hoping to get in the course this coming weekend for the first time. After I get a few passes in, I'll try to take some video and post it. Thanks to everyone for the comments. All good stuff!

[6balls]

Historically Razor and I over relied on power, but now skiing lighter. He's a specimen and might use strength in a scramble, but there is no way to ski pulling hard w/tremendous angle for 20 passes straight in a set.

 

Razor is more refined than I at this point, but our goals and theory are pretty much the same...and it's helping us both to be on the same page. He's better, but w/an understanding of what he's trying to do I can coach him and vice-versa.

 

We try to take efficient angle, making sure arms are straight when accepting the line out of the ball (handle pressure only) and ride the line w/out going for more.

 

"Get off it" if stuck in a big pull (a mistake) is get off the pulling edge...meaning don't ride that big pull too long. As soon as I'm in too deep and feel big pressure I'm thinking "get off it" in order to kick that edge change and ride the energy outbound. Avoiding a late in the pull, overloaded situation is key. In my past, I would get stuck in one of those big pulls and think AH YEAH! Work in progress as I still fight my tendencies/bad habits.

 

Picture on the starting dock? I got pieces of guys like you in my stool! (it's probably only ok for a brother to say that)

 

 

[Razorskier1]

Hey! Everybody commented I msut be a strong skier ... figured a picture is worth a thousand words! Its a 4 year old picture, but maybe you like this one better (at least I'm skiing in this one!) As for your stool, I don't want to know what's in there little brother.

[Klinger]

That reminds me that my boat and I will be going to Waterloo this weekend for the collegiate tournament cleverly named "Hawkeye Hypothermia" I have seen frost on the dock in years past. Hopefully the weather is nice. Razor, I may of been at that waterloo tournament 4 years ago... If it was 2008 I probably was there....

 

Back to what you are saying about the edge change, from my time in Florida watching and skiing with a ton of awesome skiers, I feel like the best ones are not overdoing it, and the number one thing they all do well is keep their direction outbound past the 2nd wake. They have switched edges, but they all keep the direction towards shore. I think someone earlier talked about the other said, and that is if your getting off of it too early, and casting out too early, you will apex way before the ball and run out of speed/width to get around it. Its that happy medium we are all looking for!

 

This midwest weather sure has been terrible this year hasn't it!!

[Razorskier1]

That was 2007. I was in the boat when my younger brother ran 4 at 38 in the first round. His best tournament score at the time and, save a small mistake, he should have run it. Pressure was on! I skied later that round and ran my first ever 38 in a tournament. Scored two at 39 behind a Nautique captained by Barry Madden. Weather has absolutley sucked! Surprised they are running a tournament there this weekend -- I went past there about a week ago and the water still looked really high.

[Horton]

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Thinking about similar subjects, I've been thinking for months about a better way to describe skiers movements and the skis movements. I have not yet worked out a vocabulary that I'm happy with but I'll give you guys the first dose.

 

The lateral movement of your shoulders and your hips dictate the lateral movement of your ski. The design and set up of your ski also influences lateral roll of the ski. Lateral roll is the rate at which a ski rolls onto its side. When you are skiing straight and flat behind the boat, lateral roll is zero. When you switch edges the ski travels through 0° role and then continues to roll in as it moves wide of your center of mass.

 

I would propose that if you have sufficient angle and control the handle, slower lateral roll at the edge change means greater width. To state the reverse, the faster the ski rolls onto the inside edge, the shorter its path will be to the buoy.

 

If I understood Trent last year, (Trent I apologize if I screw this up) he is an advocate of getting on and off the handle more gradually. This means not overloading the rope out of the ball line and switching edges somewhat less aggressively. If as Trent suggests, the edge change happens more slowly, the lateral roll rate of the ski will be slower and you travel further outbound.

 

As far as when to switch edges, I agree with Razorskier1. For every foot you are on your outside edge past the centerline, you are shortening your pre-turn.

 

Above is the skier we call "The Candy Man"

[Horton]

One more thing: when I slow down my Lateral Roll I get a feeling I call "Slowing Down Time"

 

It feels like the boat is going slow and pre-turns last for days. In reality is a fractions of seconds but if feels like a long time.