Who's gonna be at Nationals?

[skidawg]

The water came down a few inches wed am for the boys events, rollers were ther but skiable at 20-30 mph, nice tailwind off the dock to bust the chop down a bit also

[KB]

The site report I got yesterday "the tide is receding slowly, and the head tail is stiff"

[Boody]

The rollers are much better. Looking at the shoreline all it takes is a couple inches to go from a 1/10 slope to a 90 degree wall. The drivers are doing a great job of taking time to let it settle too. No wind today either.

 

I wanna ski bad!

[matthewbrown]

My 2 cents worth since I was there, and did ski(and of course Horton twisted my arm to get on his website and check out how cool he is)...but first let me digress and say that the highlight of my nationals trip was when I decided to spend $20 to get a massage by the lovely lady at the end of the lake, as we waited for the lighting break to be lifted at the end of OM slalom. Almost as if scripted, as soon as that Andrew Jackson hit her hand there was a simultaneous lighting strike, monsoon rain and a 50mph wind gust that completely uplifted her canopy and blew it down the lake shore. So, there I am chasing a 10’ tall metal structure down the shore line in an epic Hurricane rain, trying to help this poor lady out..and all the while I’m thinking…shit…I’ve got to ski tomorrow I need my rest, damn I can’t believe I haven’t got struck by lightning yet, and then the strong painful reminder came that I definitely put the wrong sunscreen on, the kind that burns your eyes so badly that you can’t even see where the 55’s are on your first pass. Now I’m basically worthless standing there acting like I’m helping her with this metal heap and all I can think about is, I wonder if I’ll get my $20 back!!

So, anyway the skiing….the skiing was definitely difficult, I do acknowledge that, however I will also say that mentally preparing for my ride, scouting the conditions and talking with some of the other skiers was the most fun I’ve had at a tourney in a long time. It was a challenge, something different where everyone has to adapt and everyone has to push themselves in a different way. It was great seeing those not normally in the hunt, right in the thick of the scores. It’s kinda cool to see those who embrace the challenge of competition, and those who didn’t like it or made excuses. Too many excuses these days out there---the boat did this and the driver did that or this water is too fast or you hit a roller, my ski sucks, my fin moved, how about just working with the cards you are dealt and if it’s not your day then have the confidence and the belief that someday it will be your day. Look I get it, you drive halfway across the country, pay an extraordinary amount of money to get there only to see the skier before you have very few rollers and little wind, while you get heavy gusts and constant rollers. Maybe what you didn’t see was that the skier before you actually got a shitty pull from the driver and you got a great pull. This is competition, things happen. We all want the same conditions that we practice in everyday so that we can run the same score we always run and everyone can place generally in the same order they always place, matter of fact why don’t we just call our practice scores in?? The unknown is what makes it so challenging and exciting. It feels like this competition mindset is fading away in our sport. I probably fell harder and went down earlier than most people at nationals, but will that deter me from doing a sport I love, not a chance. I tell you what would deter me from coming back, is if I was always chasing a top buoy count and always skied my hometown tourneys, with my hometown driving with my hometown boat…and then I actually had to step out of that bubble and ski somewhere that doesn’t feel like home where I skied well below my average. I think our sport is gravitating toward this train of thought and I can even catch myself thinking like this at times. Maybe it’s not our fault, with the technology now it’s so easy to get spoiled. I even get pissed off when someone pulls me with the wrong ZO setting for my first pass. There is a time to chase buoys on wonderful pristine lakes, and there is a time to roll your sleeves up and compete…either way maybe we could focus a little more on enjoying the process. How am I doing for my first post Ham?

 

[disland]

Mathew Brown. We dont know each other but I would love to meet you. Come ski at Princeton Texas with us. Guys with that kind of attitude are the ones I want to be around. I am 48 years old, I am not that good of a skier but I love being out there. Just being at Nationals and getting to ski with and against a lot of great skiers, and hanging with my buddies on the Princeton lakes Jump team, was humbling and inspiring for me. I will be back next year trying like hell just to get a little better.

 

Dave Island

[jwr]

@jdarwin Those guys are million times better skiers then me, just compare our averages. They were not the best that day. If having the highest average garauntees you the win then why would anyone bother to ski Nationals. I would be more then happy to lay down my money and ski in these exact conditions at Nationals, because it was absolutely fair for everyone. I would train differently for it, maybe ski public courses on weekends. To me it is more of a fun challenge. I understand my score is not going to be great, I just wanted to do the best I can do with whatever circumstances there are. Nature has always been a big part of our sport, and always will. You can't control it. That being said, I would not be happy if I was at a tournament trying to qualify for nationals and conditions were like that. Like I said before, to me Nationals is a totaly different tournament then any other. Your score doesn't matter. The only thing that does is that you out ski the other guy. To the Mens 3 that ran 35 at Nationals, great skiing. It was fun to watch. It was also fun to participate, and great to see that even though it was a competition everyone was trying to give the next guy an idea what to expect out there. Great sportsmanship

[bxroads]

Sometimes the Superbowl is played in a dome and sometimes its played outside in sub-zero temps with ice and snow......just saying......

[jdarwin]

Sorry - I was wrong to assume there would be some sense of expectation on the part of the participants. And yes, when the Super Bowl is played outside in ice and snow (can't remember the last time that occured because the NFL likes to showcase their premier event where the opportunity for optimal performance will occur - novel concept), the host anticipates that occurence and takes steps in advance to mitigate the impact to the participants. That's thrust of my point. Shit happens - no denying that. It's competition - suck it up. Agree. But when steps could have been taken to minimize the impact of heavy rainfall (i.e. Lago 2002), that "should" cause a certain level of frustration among those who paid $160 (plus travel) for one round (in some cases, one pass). If not, then I guess I'm in the minority. Sorry for raining on your parade (no pun intended).

[jwr]

Really I thought I would ne in the minority

Not raining on anyones parade. Just different expectations and different opinions. I can completely understand feeling that way. I like to ski in good conditions, but it did make the tournament very entertaining. It was also fair for everyone, which isn't always the case.cased

[jdarwin]

@jwr - I don't believe it was fair for everyone. Rain and wind are somewhat predictable and not influenced by a boat going up and down the lake. Rollers hit different areas at different times depending on how long the boat sits at each end, how many passes the prior skier skied, boat path, etc. Explain why they went to 60 sec waittime for MM when they used 40 sec for M3? Perhaps, because another 20 seconds allowed the rollers to clear. Not sure. I just never think of our National tournament as a contest of survival. Again, simply a matter of opinion. If you're comfortable with the outcome, then we have no disagreement.

[jwr]

@jdarwin Skiing in it, and watching everyone else ski I do believe it was fair for all the Men 3 skiers. Did the rollers hit different skiers at different spots, sure. But everyone had rollers at some point. They were fairly consistent with wait times for Mens 3, there were some small exceptions but no big deal. I find it hard to believe that the 20 extra seconds for MM helped that much. You should have been there, hard to explain how the water was, you just had to ski it to believe it.

 

I thought about asking the boat judge for a rough water reride, just to see what he would say. I was kidding of course.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Wow, Joe, you need to get out on the public lakes sometime! I've been at many Nationals where the conditions were much less than ideal - its part of the sport. You might as well try to stop Global Warming as build a site that can handle anything Mother Nature can dish out and still be perfect. Ok, build an indoor stadium and the entry fee will be $1600 instead of $160....how many will show up? We are already an "elitist" sport. Let's stop the whining.

 

Regardless if the conditions were not what many skiers are use to at their pristine home sites, the conditions were the same for all competitors - that makes it a fair competition. So what if most skiers were down a pass or more? The tournament still determines the best in the nation at the National Championship. Isn't that the idea to begin with?

 

PS, the wait times made no difference. It was a bathtub. We were sitting for 50 sec on one and end and they gave the option of doing a quick turn on the starting end (drop, shorten and go), that almost all of MM used. The wait times would have needed to be 2-3 minutes to let it settle out. It was all rough.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Joe, sorry, but this one gets a burr in my butt:

 

jdarwin August 10 Permalink Flag

@jwr - so you're saying that Chad Scott, Chet Raley, etc. are not the best? Really?

 

Yes, Really. Not on that day in those conditions they aren't. That's why we have tournaments. If they really were "the best", they would have been on the podium.

 

I've skied in conditons MUCH worse than what we had this week and Andy still smoked everyone.

 

So, it gets back to the question if the Nationals is to determine who is the best skier in perfect conditions, or who is the best skier under the conditions that Mother Nature has in mind for that particular day?

 

Matt put it very well. 'Bout time you quit lurking!

[Dirt]

I understand what Joe was saying. He is a very considerate guy who puts on the best and most organized tournament I have skied in. They could have brought in Ag pumps and delayed the start until conditions were good but they did not. It does not help the sport to have people travel across the US to ski in bad conditions. JMHO

Bruce, I don't know you but I respect your reputation. I have seen Andy get an undeserved re-ride at Moomba and take the title from Jason Paredes because he is Andy and demanded it. Everyone had the same conditions and Andy got a re-ride for a roller or a fish or some BS because he is Andy.

[jdarwin]

Again - it was my opinion - sorry if it offended anyone. Thanks, Bruce. Next time you wish to lecture me, call me. You have my number.

[bxroads]

It seems Joe would break his back to have perfect conditions at his lake. Without personalities like that the world would be even more chaotic than it is now. It's okay for Joe to be very disappointed in the conditions and its okay for him to express it. Without balance there's chaos. Keep them straight Joe!

[bmiller3536]

"Sometimes the Superbowl is played in a dome and sometimes its played outside in sub-zero temps with ice and snow"

 

Not Really, think of all the places the superbowl has been lately. Nice Weather or domes the only reason they are going to N.Y in two years is because they spent over a Billion dollars on a new stadium.

[LeonL]

Same conditions for everyone? Just heard from a M3 competitor that the winner skied just after a stop to refuel the boat. Can anyone confirm that? If so then not necessarily same conditions.

[jwr]

@jdarwin you didn't offend me and I hope I didn't you. We just have differing opinions. Sound like you have an awesome site and I would love to ski it sometime.

 

@LeonL I only saw one time where the boat stopped for any significant amount of time that they did not run a simulation pass. That was when the sticks stuck in the prop. That wasn't that big a deal because it was still on an early pass.

[Than_Bogan]

@jwr -- Oh man I wish I had thought of asking for a reride for rollers. That would have been completely hilarous!! And I have a history of not being afraid to pull a joke that I am the only person to find funny, so I'm pretty sure I would have done it!

 

Fwiw, I think different people are using the word "fair" to mean different things. At some point, "equal" is not the same thing as "fair." At least the way I use the word, "fair" has to relate to the expectations of the game (using the term broadly). If I randomly moved the buoys around before the start of the event, supplied a tanker ship as the tow boat, and required all of the skiers to ski blindfolded, this would be equal for everyone. But I would not label this as "fair." (And NO I am not saying the Nationals conditions were in any way equivalent to that. But there's a continuum, and in my opinion these conditions were sufficiently unlike expectations as to lean slightly into "unfair." And I benefitted from this unfairness -- in fact I was the guy with the stick in the prop!)

 

@Bruce I'm bummed you and I didn't cross paths at Nationals. I really wanted to thank you in person. I've been reading and re-reading your handle control article this season and it has been a big part of the most successful season of my life. So I guess an e-thank-you will have to suffice:

 

THANK YOU BRUCE!

[davemac]

Just musing....If the IOC ever were to consider adding h20skiing as an olympic sport....reading the points made this thread would quickly help with them render a decision.

[Tuney]

I've only skimmed the thread - and I wasn't at the tournament... but I feel my time at work would be too productive if I didn't respond to such an active discussion :).

 

"Sometimes the Superbowl is played in a dome and sometimes its played outside in sub-zero temps with ice and snow"

 

"Not Really, think of all the places the superbowl has been lately. Nice Weather or domes the only reason they are going to N.Y in two years is because they spent over a Billion dollars on a new stadium."

 

You know what he meant... perhaps golf is a better example some players get out early when it is not windy, some players get rained on, some players have to play with Tiger Woods (huge galleries, more TV time, pressure)... Unfortunately that is how it is and there isn't much that can be done about it.

[unksskis]

One of the best golfers I know says his secret is to practice on a windy/sprinkly day. First, the course will be less busy, second it better exposes weaknesses one can then identify and work on. Also says the adversity and change up keeps it fun.

[Chet]

Heard you guys have been talking about the Nats.

I skied there last year and the place skied great. This year might be the most difficult conditions I have skied in yet. The day before we skied the open guys rocked the place with great performances. As you all know overnight and the next day things got a bit crazy. First I would like to congratulate Greg,Todd,and Seth. They skied amazing. I am proud of my fried Bruce and all the other warriors who took their time, spent their money, dawned their boots stepped on the water. It is a tough sport and the sudden death nature of slalom makes it unappealing to some. I have been hurt before and had to sit on the sidelines wishing I could play. This week I got to play and not only do I have no regrets but I feel blessed to have had the opportunity. As has been said on that day in that moment some will shine and others will fall but I loved being with the family of waterskiing and would not trade the experience. Chet

[Than_Bogan]

Yep, there's always one thing WAY worse than skiing poorly: Not skiing. I was there in much of 2008, and I'll take 1.5 @ -35 any day of the week over THAT.

 

Thanks for your thoughts, Chet. Always good to hear from the legends of the sport! (Hopefully you don't mind me declaring you to be legendary, but really no one could deny that.)

[MarcusBrown]

The majority of the comments on this thread exemplify a basic problem with our sport today, the reason why its been "dying" for the past (x) years.

 

Folks have come to expect 14 to 1 shorelines, no bounce back, no wind,.....i.e. perfection. Why? Because USA Water Ski has structured competition such that its not competition....its choreography. If we are going to spend $400/wknd per tournament or $1000/week for nationals, we all want the best scores, at every lake, all the time. The system pushes us to strive for good scores. That pushes us to the best lakes. The best lakes are private & hidden...

 

....meanwhile normal folks are out on public lakes looking for things to do. No ski clubs anymore, no tournament skiers, no free skiers....folks do what they see. Wakeboard, tube, kneeboard, etc...

 

Until we have a system based on TRUE COMPETITION where scores don't matter, only how you stack up against everyone else....our sport will have little chance to grow.

 

Tournaments at private sites where skiers can get top scores and set records do absolutely nothing for the sport.

 

We need competition again, and a system that rewards competition,...not highest score. The only Pro list anyone looks at anymore is the Elite World Ranking List....because its based off points accumulated at events skied against other pros. Its not based on score, but rather placement.

 

Did the crappy conditions and TRUE COMPETITION at Nationals grow our sport? Not really, cuz it happened to be at another private/manmade lake in the middle of nowhere.

 

But it did highlight a self defeating mentality the exists across the board within our sport. Its time to rethink the future, realize we need to let go of old thinking and demand something different.

 

Sorry, but hosting tournaments at $2,000,000 dream lakes is unsustainable. Time to go back to where we came from before all the "we's" are folks who ONLY know private ski lakes..

 

 

[ForrestGump]

This is why tournaments in public view such as the Malibu Open are so important to our sport.

[Than_Bogan]

This thread is getting awesome fast!!

 

Firstly, Marcus: MAN did I enjoy watching you ski. Not just for the pure awesomeness of it, but also because of some your unique style elements that are just fascinating to me. GREAT STUFF.

 

But more to the meat of your post: I strongly agree with a lot of your sentiments here. I ski on a public lake, and usually I'm really happy that I do. But I also see a conflict that I find hard to resolve. Personally, I'm not really all that competitive. Most of the time, I barely care how anybody else skis except to root for folks to do their best. But I am drawn by the opportunity to measure myself and to strive to keep doing it better. This seems to almost inevitably lead to chasing the best conditions around, regardless of how AWSA structures things.

 

Can you see a way to accomplish some of what you're talking about in spite of some (I think most?) tournament skiers having a similar personality to me?

 

Also, it's tough for non-pros to directly compete against each other, because the travel becomes unrealistic. But it's so much fun to have a way to compare yourself to everyone else -- as imperfect as it may be. This seems to lead toward score-based lists, which are indeed antithetical to some of your goals. I have some grossly over-engineered ideas where we could do statistically-based site normalization, but perhaps there is a more elegant solution.

 

Put down to one question: How do we get there from here?

[Horton]

Most of us think of our sport as one of exacting tolerances. We have grown to expect, perfect boat path, perfect water conditions, exact rope length, perfect cruise control, 14 to 1 shore lines…. This is the expectation. Expectation is the key concept.

 

I think MB and Chet and many of you (including Darwin) make some intellectually honest points. I think this really parallels the ZO problems. We spend the time and money to train under one spec and then we do not get the same spec when we compete.

 

The argument could be made for events held with random boat speeds or rope lengths or ZO settings. If we knew were going to compete in this way we would know what to expect. When we showed up and the boat was going 35 mph, everyone skis A3 or AccuSki and the line lengths were 30 off, 33 off, 37 off and whatever. It would be cool because we would understand that we were entering the “random spec event”. Or do it MB’s way, we know going in that the water will not be smooth. The point is change the expectation.

 

What sucks is spending a ton of cash thinking (expecting) you are going to get one thing and getting another.

 

A few other thoughts:

 

For better or worse, a lot of skiers are competing against themselves when they enter an event. I do. I have no freak’n chance against Ward or Chet Or Badal. All I want is a score that I can free good about. My two proudest moments in skiing were PBs at Nationals. One year I scored every trick I knew and one year I beat my jump PB by 4 feet.

 

The site owners worked their asses off and should be thanked. It is hard to find lakes to run this event. It is huge endeavor. I have to assume the volume of rain was unforeseeable. (I have not seen it here but if you have something bad to say about the lake owner take it somewhere else)

 

If I had spent the money to be there, I do not think I would have been a good sport about it. At least privately, I would be very pissed (Skis cost too much to throw these days). I would have had an expectation of something different. Perhaps I need a different expectation.

 

Those of you who can put a happy face on it … I guess the rest of us should learn from you. It seems like a healthy attitude. No explanation of how my brain works but the Judge Smails poem seems fitting

 

[bxroads]

"why grow the sport?"

 

To have someone to ski with! A ski partner is hard to come by in these parts (Southeast AL).

[Horton]

Keep sport alive

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Joe,

 

My apologies if I came across as lecturing. Some of your comments came across as whining and I strongly disagree with many of them. We have honest disagreements and the tone gets lost on the message board. All better discussed over beer, but in the meantime, we have this forum.

 

 

[unksskis]

do you want to manufacture you're own skis? the wakeboard companies will slowly start to quit putting any money into 3 event, especially if growth is not desired or a potential.

[MAD11]

Worst conditions I have ever skied in for a tournament. Still had a lot of fun seeing everyone and will laugh about it for years. I rode in the boat for boys 2 the next day. The driver had his hands full keeping it in the middle due to the rollers. When the boat is bouncing all the way down imagine what the skiing is like. Was glad they gave the MM group more time on the ends than us in M3. Made it a little better, but still was brutal for them too. S happens sometimes. I knew when Lyman picked me up at the dock and was shaking his head it was going to be fun.

Frankly, the practice line situation was much more aggravating than the bad conditions. There was nothing they could do about the water level, but the silly line everyday could have been helped.

[lakeo]

I'd like to see what the place looked like. Did anybody get pictures or video of m3 or mm?

[jwr]

Maybe someone has something good, but I don't think pictures or video could do it justice.

[LeonL]

As far as competition, my ski partner and I were talking the other day and a post by someone came up. Someone posed the question as to why some skiers flip-flop between MM and their respective age divisions. I would suggest that if a skier skis in and qualifies for the Big Dawg finals, he would have to ski MM instead of age division. Or perhaps if your AWSA 12 month rolling average is, say 104, you would have to ski MM. Just a suggestion that may be a competition improvement. However I'm prepared to get stoned for this though.

[Chad_Scott]

As a person that skied the Mens 3 Division, it was certainly not the conditions I expected. I really enjoyed the site last year thought it skied great. Competition is competition good or bad conditions. Hats off to Jason for enduring these conditions. I skied like a "p#ss" and got beat. Was not the best skier on that day and as they say thats why we play the game. That why we do what we do, I will be back and ready for WPB next year. I always enjoy the opportunity to compete and will look forward to next year.

[skidawg]

@LeonL-As far as competition, my ski partner and I were talking the other day and a post by someone came up. Someone posed the question as to why some skiers flip-flop between MM and their respective age divisions. I would suggest that if a skier skis in and qualifies for the Big Dawg finals, he would have to ski MM instead of age division. Or perhaps if your AWSA 12 month rolling average is, say 104, you would have to ski MM. Just a suggestion that may be a competition improvement. However I'm prepared to get stoned for this though.

 

This is also a hot topic, but one of the main road blocks for a mandatory move in to MM is the overall picture, How does one handle

[Chef23]

Aren't overall scores determined by NOPS scores not placements. I guess there is the issue that conditions could be different if MM was run at a different time but if you ran MM, M3 and M4 slalom on the same day you would likely have most of the MM skiers skiing on the same day as their overall competitors that slalomed in M3 and M4.

[Ham_Wallace]

I got a massage from the girl at the lake too. Good $20 spent. Damn jump crashes.It is about competition and hanging out with your buddies. Some you only see once a year.

[eleeski]

unksskis, I do want to build my own skis! I also built my own lakes. Perfect conditions but nobody to pull me. I used to have an active club but the interest faded. And none of the remaining skiers are 20somethings. I'm doing something wrong now.

 

Conditions were great for my slalom and trick run. But that was a day earlier. The dock was flooded for my jump set and it was washing the soap out of the bindings when I tried to get my skis on. How was I expected to jump well after that?!!

 

Regarding MM getting different conditions than age divisions, too bad! MM earned any advantage the different day might offer. In this case, MM got worse conditions than M4 and M5. MM should be good enough to handle the tougher conditions. MM (or Open) should count towards overall.

 

At least, let the MM or Open skiers ski age division for no placement but for an overall score so they can play for the overall. They earned it! The current system of penalizing skiing up is ridiculous.

 

Eric