I can't stop going over the front...and I'm desparate.

[justcuz]

and it's freakin me out. :)

 

Just got a new ski; 67" Radar Senate C. I'm right at the weight threshhold...I'm 200# and could be on either a 67 or 69. Chose the 67 beacuse another baller gave me a heluva a deal on it. I got pounded tonight, went over the bars twice and slid out once. After the over the bars thing I really laid off the ski because I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong.

 

Every time I went over the bars it was coming down the second wake. I'm sure I was in terrible position, but I wasn't with people who could help with that issue....they couldn't stop laughing anyway ;). I was skiing at 32 tonight.

 

Is there any one thing that seems to cause people to go over the front.....constantly? I'm coming from a Connelly F3 that I thought was a 67, but after skiing this ski the Connelly felt like a 75" ski. But I never went over the front.

 

Turn initiation felt incredibly good compared to my F3 and I was ready to give 'er, but after the ego got tromped I sallied out.

 

Supposed to be cold and windy for several days so I won't be able to get any video or any sets for a few...just looking for some "generally speaking" comments.

 

Highly doubting its the equipment. My only excuse would be that maybe I should've gone with the 69".

 

Any thoughts would be awesome!

 

[GAJ0004]

Are you coming over the front on your offside, or onside turn?

Check to make sure your fin and bindings are all at factory specs. Then you have a place to start to set up your ski. A longer ski is always more forgiving than a shorter ski. If you can describe how you are falling I may be able to help you set up your ski. You will need an 8'' dial caliper to measure your fin. When your finish the turn does you ski feel like it stalls or stops suddenly before you get yanked over the front?

 

[justcuz]

You raise a good point. These are the settings that I was trying to ensure:

 

2.495 D

6.845 L

.785 DFT

8 degree wing

29 5/16 to rear of front binding

 

That said, I do not have calipers. I got the ski from another baller, so I literally went on the faith that he set it up like this. With my very amatuer measurements, they looked awfully close to the above. The only measurement I wasn't sure of is "DFT". Maybe this ski is over my head becaues I don't even know what that is..

 

Top two are fin depth and lenght, right? Wing is obvious, and rear of front binding is measured from the rear of ski near as I could tell.

 

I'm just a little concerned that I maybe took too big of step from the F3 to the Senate...but let's face it, you gotta go sometime.

[thager]

Move your binding back one hole and try it assuming you're set up like above.

[justcuz]

I think I can get some calipers from work...I'll get that checked.

[GAJ0004]

There are 3 measurements. Depth, distance from tail, and the length, so you are correct. If you increase the depth of the fin it will make it harder to make it roll on to its edge, but it will have more holding power. For now, don't mess with the depth. Moving the fin forward or backward affects how the ski behaves on your ONSIDE turn. Moving the fin backwards will lower the tip of the ski and raise the tail, or moving the fin forward lowers the tail and raises the tip. The length of the fin (diagonal) adjustment affects how your ski behaves on the OFFSIDE turn. If you make the fin longer that drives the tip of the ski into the water on your OFFSIDE turn. If you make the fin shorter it will raise the tip of your ski on the OFFSIDE turn. Harbor FReight tools has a basic 8'' dial caliper which is cheaper than you could find at a water ski shop. H20proshop has angle guages for the wing. If you can describe exactly where in the turn you are getting yanked over the front, I should be able to point you in the right direction.

[zplol]

I got a regular senate mid season last year and got 2 OTF, one ending my season with a concussion. It was free skiing, pretty much exactly as you described, crossing the second wake. The way I was analysing it, I was crossing the wakes with too much tip out of the water, so when I was going down that 2nd wake it was grabbing the tip and sending me over the bars.

 

I have then moved my binding to 30" from the tail, and took one degree out of the wing. The ski ride a lot more level to the water and its noticeably faster than before.

 

 

[SkiJay]

Radar skis have their flat section (the most stable part of the ski to stand/cut on) further back on the ski than any other ski on the market. The load you may be used to putting on the front of your Connelly will make any Radar's tip dig-in for more turn or more cutting-angle than would have been the case on your Connelly. I suspect that the technique you are used to on the Connelly may have come close to sending you out the front on occasion, and now that you are on a Radar, it's OTF you go. If your fin settings are pretty close to stock, then OTF's should not be happening. Get some video of your skiing from in the boat. Look to see that your ski and hips are at least under if not ahead of the rope by the time you pass the prop wash. If your ski or hips are not yet under the rope as you pass beyond the prop wash, if you are still firmly on your cutting edge into the second wake, and especially if your handle is nowhere near your hips, the front of your ski will dig in and your body will get yanked further forward. In short, if your setup is close, you will find your solution by addressing these technique issues.

[justcuz]

Thanks guys. Yes, I have no doubt it's technique. I developed way too many bad habits on a forgiving ski over the past 10 years. I probably waited too long to upgrade.

 

This OTF action happens on my on-side turn as I'm coming over the second wake. Sounds like one thing I need to do for sure is ensure that ski is in front of me.

[jhughes]

You may be pulling too hard, too quickly off the turn which is building too much tension too quickly. By the time you get to the wake, the rope is already starting to recoil and you can't retain a good position at that point, causing a dangerous position by the 2nd wake. Perhaps try a more progressive lean out of the turn so that you're peaking later in the cut.

[Horton]

I am sorry to hear are getting beat up but that is a really solid ski. Not the skis fault.

[baja]

Get cheap 8 inch digital calipers from Harbor Freight for about $30, at least you'll know what the actual settings are and can set it to stock. Cheap tool is better than none, that said I've got the Slot Caliper and it's awesome. I borrowed a 67 senate from a promo driver buddy and the fin was way different from factory in all 3 measures. Set it bone stock and it felt very similar to my senate C. Measure the binding placement and get it to stock. At least then the ski is set up as designed. Try it again, and only move binding back if you're still stuffing the tip all the time. I would also take the wing off unless you're at 32 off instead of 32mph. With halfway decent body position you should not be going OTF on that ski. Drive your knees forward, and relax your arms through both wakes.

[justcuz]

I had to hear all of the above. Thanks so much and keep the comments and criticism rolling. I was somewhat shaken last night, maybe bummed a bit....and worried that I "shoulda" bought the 69" at my weight, but I really bought that ski to progress and I didn't want anything like my F3. Got what I asked for.

[Than_Bogan]

OTFs at second wake are almost certainly from body position errors. In my "article" about the Leverage Position, I have a section on symptoms, and list several keys to self-diagnosing and avoiding OTFs. I think it's worth a read. Lemme know if you have any trouble searching it up.

 

But if you just wanna do one thing right away to increase your safety, face your shoulders toward the boat. It's really hard to go out the front with your shoulders fully square to the boat. I actually don't recommend skiing dead-square to the boat as the best possible practice, but start there until your OTFs go away and then consider allowing yourself to deviate just a touch from fully square to get a little more angle.

[HO 410]

Completely agree with Than, you shouldn't be crashing after the second wake.

 

Dial it back a bit and get to know the ski.

 

[MrBrown]

You are probably "leading with the shoulders" and "trailing with the hips", with the arms seperated from your body. This means that you are taking most of the pull through your shoulders (high anchor point) and are "not connected" through your core.

 

"Stand tall" and "Lock the Elbows" to the vest with "straight arms",..to maintain a low anchor point!!! This will help you to get your shoulders back and will help you to bring your hips forward/up to "connect the handle to your hip".

 

http://waterskimag.com/how-to/2001/06/14/smooth-between-the-wakes/

 

http://waterskimag.com/features/2010/04/19/how-to-maximize-cross-course-direction/

 

http://waterskimag.com/features/2012/07/12/position-your-arms-for-effortless-water-skiing/

[boarditup]

On the Senate, the only time I have an OTF fall is when I break at the waist and move my hips back. The ski then stops in the trough of the wake.

[Skoot1123]

@justcuz - I have been having some of the same symptoms the past couple weeks. Last night I diagnosed it. First, get stacked. That will improve acceleration and improve angle during/after the turn. Second, keep your head up in the turn.

 

What I was doing to cause the problem was actually "getting forward on my ski" for a great turn. Turns out I was bending forward at the waist to get weight on the front of the ski. As I was bending forward I was looking at the ball. I would end up getting a ton of angle and being in a bad position for the hook up and wake crossing. To compensate I'd have to "sit down" (like in a chair position) and bend even MORE at the waist to take the hit and stay on the ski.

 

Was so thankful I "figured" it out last night.....it felt great!!!! Hope this helps!

[justcuz]

Just thought I'd give an update. I spent yesterday working on form, not worrying about speed, cuts, etc. I did move the front binding back one hole and double checked all measurements with a caliper. Indeed I am not stacked moving through the wake, which I'm betting is by far my biggest issue. I worked hard at pushing my hips forward and keeping my arms at my hips. I have a ton of bad habits to break I think.

 

I also realized, even though I wasn't worrying about speed, I have to ski at 34 for this ski to work right at my weight (just a touch over 200 this AM), otherwise I get some pretty good tip spray. Makes me wonder if I shoulda gone with the 69 but the 67's price was much better. My hope is I will ski into this ski, rather than outskiing a 69. I have no issues getting up (in fact it's easier than my ol' F3), and am enjoying the challenge.

 

Couple times I felt that "oh crap" feeling, but no slide outs and no OTF's!

 

Thanks for the help all, looking forward to working on this for a while. It's safe to say I'm re-learning to slalom ski.

[jipster43]

I've found it's much easier to get stacked behind the boat if I get tall and proud before I start my turn. I typically turn into my preferred position.