Should I speed up the boat or shorten the rope?

[escmanaze]

Hi Guys,

Here is my situation: I'm 5'11" 171 pounds. I ride a 97 SNOB and a 2012 Senate 69". I rode Saturday and ran several comfortable passes at 28 mph and full line length. I also ran one last pass at 30 mph and it felt fairly comfortable as well, and then the sun went down and we were out of time. For the next step to progress past where I'm at, should I stay at 30 MPH and take the rope to 15 and then 22 off? Or should I keep moving up to 32 and then 34 mph before shortening the rope at all? Or a mixture of the two?

 

Also same question for my friend. He is riding my same ski, but he is 5'10" and 160 pounds. He ran the course comfortably at 26 mph on the Jr. Buoys. Where should he go from here? Stay at 26 mph and full length and work on getting to the real buoys? Or should he get up to 28 or 30 and then work on moving out to the real buoys?

 

Obviously, neither of us are super pros yet, but we would like to advance and get better and would love your input on which direction to take.

 

thanks

 

Scott

[aswinter05]

@escmanaze , solid question. One that I too asked a little while back. Here is the thread on that same topic: Speed up first, or cut rope first? Hopefully this is helpful.

 

http://ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/7358/what-s-the-best-way-to-progress-in-the-course

 

[Killer]

get the 15off loop on there and start bumping the speed up to max until you start going shorter than 15off. ditch the full rope for good.

[Texas6]

Good advice above. If you are over 35yrs old, work the boat up slowly until you can complete 15 off consistantly at 34mph. If you're under 35, work the boat speed up slowly until you can complete 36mph consistently at 15 off, and then shorten the rope. Don't be afraid to raise the boat speed in 1 mph increments if you are having trouble getting through faster speeds. As a note, and this really isn't a big deal for you right now, but 69 seems a bit large for you and particularly your friend. If you have a 67" around, its worth checking to see how it skis for you. Good luck!

[Joeprunc]

Take 15' off and run at 28 mph. Keeping it at 15' off bump your speed up to 30, 32, 34. I wouldn't bump up in speed until you can ski all 6 buoys consistently.

I've also cheated a bit for people and gone 31 mph to help bridge to 32 mph pass.

 

For your friend, how comfortable does he feel, how old is he? Tell him to shadow the real buoys (in other words ski between the two but closer to the real ones). See if he can run the real buoys with the full length rope at 26 mph. Then take 15' off at 26 mph. If 15' off and real buoys are too hard again have him shadow the buoys.

 

And again don't be in a rush to bump up speed, everything happens a lot quicker, I found I developed bad habits just to get to the next level. This summer I plan on not bumping the speed or taking line off until I get all 6 buoys every time, I feel like my form is really getting better this year by holding back.

[PatRe]

You're running passes and I agree with @Killer saying "ditch the full rope for good." While I've never attempted skiing with a 75' line at any speed, I am thankful as I hear skiing 36 MPH (a long time ago for me) with the full line is a "hard" pass. Ski at -15; you've earned it!

 

You came to the right forum for help! If you post a video I'm sure you'll get excellent feedback and immediately improve your skills. Keep it safe and fun. Good luck!

[LeonL]

I agree with above. Get rid of the long line and work on getting up to speed. As for your friend, as suggested above, have him begin to shadow. Then start adding buoys from the 6 back. That way he gets five turns before going for a buoy and less falls and failures. Add 6 then 5, 4, etc. Somewhat unique idea for some, but I've seen good success with that approach.

[Waternut]

Go to 15 off immediately and then definitely speed up. Last year I was struggling to run 34mph. My 28 and 30mph passes were automatic, 32mph was challenging but I could make it regularly, and 34mph I couldn't get at all. After a few weeks, my ski partner recommended shortening the rope to 22 off at 32mph which was the fastest speed I could run the course at the time. A few tries at 22 off and I ran that followed by 3-4 buoys at 28 off before I got tired.

 

I will say that running 22 off and 28 off showed me a different perspective. I don't think it necessarily helped my skiing directly but it helped me understand skiing a little better and why people running faster speeds and shorter line lengths talk about the things they talk about. There is so much information out there to help skiers that I was getting lost in the weeds. When I realized that a lot of the information didn't apply (more like much less critical) to my level of skiing, I was able to bring things back to reality and focus on the basics or the things that really matter to my level.

[gregy]

I agree with @waternut about cutting at slower speeds to give you different perspective. My skiing partner likes to ski at 30mph and cut line, he has no desire to ski tournaments. If you want to ski tournaments you will need to be able to ski at your top speed for your age eventually. At your level I'd say go have fun and do what works best. Some people will respond to increasing speed other shortening line.

[6balls]

Get rid of longline muy pronto...start training at 15 off and work with speeds there.

[escmanaze]

wow, thatnks everybody for the input and please keep it coming. I have a couple followup questions then. It seems almost unanimous that everybody hates the 75 foot rope and says to go to a max line length of -15. Why is that? What is so different from 60 to 75 feet. With the verdict being nearly unanimous, I'll probably go that direction regardless of reason, but I definitely am curious as to why.

 

Here is a bit of further explanation on a few of the questions posed. I'm really not sure how dead set I am on doing tournaments. I really enjoy skiing behind my boat on my lake with my peeps, so I may never do a tournament. Would this change your advice to maybe match more closely with @waternut and @gregy such that maybe I should just get to 30 or 32 and start reducing rope length even though I'm only 32 years old? Maybe especially since I'm on a ski that's slightly too large?

 

The ski is indeed currently a bit large. I bought it at a time when I was 185 and not super confident that I wasn't headed straight to 200. I also wasn't skiing well at the time on my old smaller ski, so I wanted something that wasn't going to be dragging like crazy if I could only run the course at 28 and was sitting at 200 pounds. I figure if I can get my weight back down to 160 where it should be and if I'm consistently running 34 mph, maybe that will be my perfect excuse to reward myself with a new smaller, maybe even more aggressive ski. I understand that I'm still in the age group for 36 mph, but honestly, I think I'm over it. I don't really plan on skiing at 36 mph ever again. If that means I have to wait 3 years before participating in tournaments, then so be it.

 

I'll get video up as well for sure. It was just me and him last week, and I don't have a rig for the pylon or anything, but as soon as we can get an observer in the boat, I'll post that as well as a picture is worth a thousand words and a video is worth a million. Thanks also for help with him. He won't be buying his own smaller ski any time soon, I'm sure, but we'll leave him on mine, and shorten his rope, and then have him start shadowing in reverse order like you mentioned. That seems like a decent way to progress from Jr. buoys to real buoys.

 

Thanks again everybody and please keep the suggestions coming.

 

 

[Waternut]

I do want to clarify my intentions... I'm all for increasing speed over shortening the line too 22 off and beyond. However, I do think it's worth shortening the rope for a couple sets as a way to experience something different. My reasoning is that sometimes I get stuck in a rut and don't really know what to do next. When shortening the rope, it really highlights our weaknesses and with that knowledge, you can work on the things that are preventing you from progressing.

 

Regardless of whether you want to go ski tournaments or not, stopping at a slow speed takes some of the fun and challenge out of it. I would at least recommend getting to 34mph before ultimately throwing in the towel on speed increases.

[nam1975]

Agree with above posts about your ski buddy doing the shadow until 5 or 6. I started with the entrance gates, but would shadow 1-4 and tried to make good turns and get out to 5 and or 6 ball.

 

I'll still do this early in the year or if I'm skiing crummy, but I will add 1 ball in, shadow 2-5, and get back to 6.

 

Sounds like you guys are on your way....have fun

[GOODESkier]

escmanaze I was in your shoes not long ago! Here are my words of wisdom in no particular order........

 

1. Start @ 15' OFF and work up in speed by .5 MPH (if you have a speed control) or 50 RPM's if you don't.

3. Try to get up to 34 MPH @ 15' OFF then cut rope

4. Being only 3 years away from the 34 MPH Club........ my motto became "I don't necessarily have to ski better at 36 MPH, I just have to get old enough!"

5. Cut rope on days you want to just have fun! Build speed on the days you want to work!

6. Your already behind a good boat. Add speed control with some form of course timing if you want to do tournaments (Look into INT League Tournaments - FUN STUFF - GREAT WAY TO GET BETTER FASTER - Wish I had done it earlier!)

7. Get on the right ski as soon as possible. Right ski will be determined somewhat by what you want to spend and how far you want to take this hobby. We could all chime in on what we think is the best.

 

My story:

I waited until I was 35 yrs. old (currently 36 years old) to enter into a tournament because I wasn't interested in the 36 MPH club or just didn't feel like I was accomplished enough to do that. When in reality, I should have been skiing in every tournament I could find. It is a GREAT way to get better, even just watching and being part of the experience, especially INT.

 

5 years ago, I was struggling to ski full passes at about 30 MPH and 15' OFF. This past Saturday, I matched my PB from last year with 2 Balls @ 38' OFF 34.2 MPH. SO............. I contribute my progression to skiing nearly everyday from May 1 - Nov 1, 2003 Nautique 196 with SG Zbox, 65.25" GOODE Nano One with Power Shell 5's. And I look forward to getting better every set!

[Moggie]

I've never seen anyone run the course on a 75' line; I was always told to shorten to 15off then work through the speeds spending most time on the pass you can run 90% of the time. Mix it up with 22off when you start getting close to your max speed.

Tournaments are good fun and a great way to motivate yourself to get better. Don't even think about being crap, every starts somewhere. My first was 5@28mph about 6 months ago and can't wait for the next one. It gives your progression a proper milestone.

[walleye]

Stay on the long line till you reach max speed. The long line will teach you to ski wider and connected to the boat. If the rope is dropping in the water you are skiing narrow and at the ball. I feel if you shorten the rope it will increase bad habits of skiing narrow. Also causing load out of the ball breaking your form crossing the wake which is the most important.

[GaryWilkinson]

Respectfully disagree with @walleye. I think shoreline rules were developed after the 75' rope was deemed the length of waterskiing. (Obvious?).

 

Full length seems to me, a wrong length for the rhythm of slalom. IMHO -22 is a great length to ski at. Perfect length combining the challenge of a shorter line and long enough to reach the buoys without developing bad habits. I coach my students to start at -15 and progress as far as they can there, sometimes maxing out at 30 mph or 32 mph, then sometimes, (not for everyone), go to -22 to feel the rhythm and timing of -22. The ski moves quicker, the pull seems lighter, shorter and you move through the course getting more speed and glide outside the wakes. (Casting out)

 

While I don't claim this is for everyone, I do believe that skiing at full length will slow your progress and be less enjoyable. I've had many a student say "wow!, so that what slalom is all about!" When they go to -15 and -22 !

 

Whatever you do, keep skiing"

 

GW

[A_B]

A few times a week: Run 28 off at however slow you need to go on that big ski to run the pass. You will learn how to hold edge better and have fun in the process.

[19skier]

For a different perspective; when i was introduced to course skiing at age 50 it was instant passion for buoys. I got through -35 a handful of times and was having more fun than should be allowed when i learned that old men ski 34mph and my 30 mph skiing didn't mean much. I collected some injuries stepping up to 34 and had to learn some important lessons to ski higher speeds - hard to hurt yourself crashing at 30mph, easy at 34! I sometimes wonder if slow speed n short lines is the most fun and safest way for me to ski. Guess it depends on what your goals n age are. I do think cutting rope at slow speed was so much fun n low risk that it was a good for my learning curve, commitment to skiing and to staying fit.

matt grimshaw flathead lake mt.

 

[A_B]

Amen to that.

Our egos have a way of getting in the way with progress in this sport.

If you can run 28 off at any speed, you are reinforcing the proper techniques of shoreline.

You will find it physically challenging and fun as well.

[escmanaze]

Thanks again everybody. I do have zbox on my boat, so I should be able to go in 0.5 mph increments without too much trouble. Thanks again for all the input.

 

Scott