Fin help.

[Wish]

Feeling like my ski is over turning 246 (on side). And would like more angle outa 135 (off side). Been around the net and this site. Looks like a few ideas repeat. Move fin forward is one possibility but basically looking for a consensus. Will be making that adjustment before my morning sets tomorrow.

[ForrestGump]

You might add .005 depth. This would slow down the tail slide on your on side and the increased drag would engage the tip more on your offside.

[A_B]

If you lengthen your fin, it will give you more angle out of offside at the expense of your onside turn and width.

[Horton]

what Shane said

[A_B]

He may need both, but I haven't had much success helping my offside when adding depth. I'll have to give that another try sometime.

[SkiJay]

@Wish Increasing fin depth will affect both turns similarly. It would definitely tame the over-turning on your on-side but it will hinder your off-side turn too.

 

As @AB said, increasing fin length would tighten up the off-side by making it easier to engage more tip but its effect on the on-side can depend on your technique. If you tend to heal-turn the on-side, it will help; if you ride the front of your ski on the on-side, it will make the tip bite even more. Too much length can reduce the feel and consistency of your ski too.

 

Moving the fin back is probably your best bet for the asymmetric change you are looking for. It will provide more tail support on your on-side to reduce the over-turning, and it will create more angle out of the off-side by engaging more tip off your 1,3,5.

 

If you have your rear binding rotated open, straightening it out will also benefit both turns the way you want.

 

There you go @Wish, now all the conflicting advice you'd encountered has been gathered into one thread.

[Craig]

Anyone want to suggest changing wing angle just to round out the recommendations?

 

<\sillycomment>

[gregy]

@wish you have any video?

[A_B]

All sound advice.

Measure where you are at, then start trying things.

 

We did forget to mention move the bindings forward, didnt we?

[Gloersen]

2nd @Skijay, decrease DFT 1st

[Than_Bogan]

@AB @Wish I was totally gonna say bindings forward -- especially the rear one if you have any separation that would make that move possible. I got that one from Dave Goode when I was having a similar problem and it helped tremendously.

 

Pretty impressive how varying the ideas are on how to address a given symptom!

[A_B]

A lot depends on the skier style as well. I like to watch the ski in the glide for the gates and then behind the boat, respective to the skier's stance and weight distribution on the ski.

[teammalibu]

1 question 3 answers! Do what your momma told you not to and play with it!!

[skihart]

@Wish. I am feeling the same as you in regards to a fin change. Same issues I feel the ski bites really hard on my onside 135 and I am not getting the angle out of 246 and feel I am getting too much tip rise.

I think I am more confused than ever now though after reading all these opinions.

So less DFT then???

 

I don't suppose there is a guide to fin tuning with symptom/result out there is there?

[ForrestGump]

There are a lot of really good skiers and coaches using depth in place of other movements now. We actually employed the reverse movement with Horton after some discussions last week. His offside finished too hard and the onside didn't finish hard enough. So we took .005 depth out to give the onside some more slide at the finish and take tip pressure away from the offside.

[mwetskier]

seanh ' So we took .005 depth out to give the onside some more slide at the finish and take tip pressure away from the offside. ' this confuses me cuz the shnitz fin tuning guide says to much tip pressure off side can be fixed by *adding* fin depth which seems the opposite movement here. are the rules different now with zo?

[Gloersen]

Conventional thought seems to have been that a decrease in DFT will allow the ski to be out front a bit more, which typically adds acuity and angle out of the offside buoy, imo.

 

However after a bad tournament changed M6 (66.75) from 29-5/8 to 29-3/8 (Reflex) and arbitrary fin change from 6.840/2.500/.775/9 to 6.832/2.515/.780/9 Results; smoother lean and onside turns, better width both ways, and offside turns even quicker/sharper. The latter doesn’t make sense based on older assumptions, but corroborates @ShaneH observations.

 

Experiment with a few sets. Fresh battery and keep calipers dry!

 

[ForrestGump]

@mwetskier I don't know what Schnitz is saying, but adding depth while keeping length the same increases drag and fin ratio and therefore tip pressure. The reverse is true, also. removing depth while keeping length the same reduces tip pressure and fin ratio. You have to balance where you run the depth, though, with the feel you want from the ski. Too little depth and the ski will take a shallower angle off the 2nd wake because the downcourse pull overpowers the fins ability to hold it's line. Too much and it won't want to roll out.

 

The thing is, there are a lot of different ways to skin a cat here.

[SkiJay]

@Gloersen While the changes you made worked out well for you, you really can't draw any conclusions when making four changes at the same time other than it might have been a good day to buy a lottery ticket. I feel lucky when I can keep all the effects straight that one change has throughout the pass never mind the interacting effects of two or more changes.

[Wish]

Added depth. Seemed to over turn more at 246. . Then shortened DFT. For some reason I think my fin got jacked cause the DFT was way to much. Pretty sure I didn't put it there. Shortened it to setting I had written down. Better. But the tail wanted to break free at 135 off side. I may have gone to far on the DFT move. Or I may need to put the depth back. Am a back leg pusher for sure at 246. No way to get the hard shells any closer. Feeling like the attitude of the ski is ok but wanting that "just ride the ski through the turn". Have not found that sweet spot for my on side. Seems to be ok on the off side but just need the ski to finish by few more degrees and get that angle. Work in progress. Appreciate suggestion. Consensus is obviously out the window.

[SkiJay]

@ShaneH Semantics perhaps, but for the sake of accuracy, since fin ratio = fin length ÷ fin depth, more depth "reduces" fin ratio. That aside, what you're saying is true, more depth with equal length moves the center of pressure back on the fin with the results you've listed, just not as much as reducing distance from tail and with different affects elsewhere in the pass.

 

So since either more depth or less DFT will improve @Wish's symmetry, which of these two changes will help the most (or harm the least) other segments of his pass? If he wants, in addition to the changes at each ball, a more stable feeling ski that rolls through the edge change more slowly and needs more effort but feels more stable on its cutting edge, then go with more fin depth. If the ski is already stable enough, then try moving the fin back first.

 

Like you said earlier, there's more ways than one to skin this cat. Start with the way that will give you what you want, or can live with, elsewhere in the pass too.

[SkiJay]

@Wish You originally said your ski wouldn't turn on the off-side which likely caused you to get into a habit of riding heavily on the front of the ski around 1,3,5. Now that the fin is more in balance, you may just need to lighten up a little on the front of the ski during off-side turns. A little less fin length can help with this by delivering less ski tip engagement for the same level of skier input.

 

Having said that, it sounds like a bit more depth would help at this point too. Better still, if you will share your current settings and what the factory recommended settings are for your ski, it will help put your feedback into context. Blowing the tail out of off-side turns may need bindings back, less fin length, more depth, less wing, etc. ... or a simple technique tweak.