Baller Brewski Posted September 16, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 16, 2013 Thought I would give these a place of their own vs under the page on Why I love Stealths (NOT) . Unfortunately due to the $$$ and time involved in each pair or each boot and plate these are not currently available but maybe with the help of BALL OF SPRAY and all of us slalom junkies maybe someone in the industry will want to go forward with some kind of production. There are a few comments on their/my history under the Stealth page on them also so look at what is out there also. Kohen Kustoms are custom made to each skiers feet using the same manufacturing process I use to make my world famous SpeedSkating boots. Thanks for taking a look and pushing one of these companies forward. NOTHING SKIS OR SKATES LIKE A CUSTOM. The following pix are of Short Track Speedskating boots but gives you an idea of the thousands of colors and styles that can be made to each of your CUSTOMS: My SS BOOTS website is kohensports.com and you can see more products on FacePuke https://facebook.com/pages/SS-BOOTS/72501291188?ref=hl Any one super interested in talking to me give me a shout: Bruce Kohen 573-392-7432 Thanks for looking...... Brewski* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Waternut Posted September 16, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 16, 2013 Looks good. I have seriously considered doing something like that for myself but ultimately decided I'd rather ski than manufacture stuff. I do believe our sport needs something like this but unfortunately feel that it would be very slow to get off the ground. Best of luck to you and your business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klundell Posted September 16, 2013 Share Posted September 16, 2013 Those are unbelievably awesome! I would love to attach some of those to a powershell set up and give them a rip. I'm sure they are crazy expensive though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted September 16, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted September 16, 2013 Yeah I really never tried to get this off the ground due to all the Speedskating boots I have to build. Crazy long hours to make. Carbon Fiber, Kevlar, Spectra, Synthetic Leathers You can hear the cash register ringing $$$$$ Cha Ching..... Then the plates are 7000series aircraft aluminum Cha Ching.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klundell Posted September 16, 2013 Share Posted September 16, 2013 How much would you have to retail just the boot for to turn a profit? You could easily connect that to a G10 plate and velcro it to the ski. I'm a fan of the interlock set up. I think it releases as good as any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted September 16, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted September 16, 2013 I have not got into it that far yet as it has all been a side project to the skate boots. If we look at it like this the whole project does not make much sense: Lets say we sold a single boot for 500.00 and I have around 40-50 hours in a boot. that is $10-12.50 an hour before materials come out. Then there is a lot of trash materials (casting plaster tape, plaster to fill negatives, build up plaster, bleader, peal ply, bagging film, seal tape) that go into the carbon production, then glues, resins, boxing/shipping materials, then the shop has to stay open, heat&A/C electricity and so on.....can you see I am going broke fast...BUT if a shop is already up and running and making skis or whatever it only take around 500 sq. ft. of space to do these at not much added expense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted September 16, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted September 16, 2013 Klundell do you have any idea why is G10 being used so much in water skiing it is really not that good of a composite material. Strength to weight ratio is out the roof compared to high end fiberglass or even low end carbon.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted September 16, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted September 16, 2013 If I was a speed skater, what would I pay for a pair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Jordan Posted September 16, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 16, 2013 @Brewski. Good looking product. As is often the case commercialization can be the most difficult part of product devopment. There have been a couple of examples from your world of people who have tried to adapt and market speedskating technology to another sport. You probably already know these guys from speedskating. Dave Cruickshank and Scott Van Horne designed and developed the MLX hockey skate and made inroads. Even had about 20 or so NHL player wearing them. I think the lack of distribution was a problem. Ultimately, Dave Cruickshank sold the company to Easton Sports and they are making a version of the MLX skate that thay have called the Mako. Van Horne continued making speed skates but has recently launched a hockey skate called the VH. See VH Footwear. Anyhow, they are both trying to sell a speedskating technology into another market. It might be worth getting in touch with those guys and see what they have to say. I think that you have a great product with a ton of potential. I hope that you get it going for us waterkiers!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klundell Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 @brewski I'm not sure why G10 is being used. My guess is that it doesn't matter so much and it's not terribly expensive? Have you talked with Dave Goode about it? The guy loves Carbon Fiber. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted September 17, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted September 17, 2013 Yup I know all about VH and Cruickshanks deal with the hockey skates. I have been approached by a hockey company also but really not interested in their deal. Tried several times to talk to Dave Goode at Nationals 2009, that guy would not give me the time of day, but Jamie Beauchenes foot is real similar to mine and he got his feet in my boots, several pix, and viola STEALTHS...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted September 17, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 17, 2013 Love the detail in your molds, do you do alginate impressions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted September 17, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted September 17, 2013 @Wish, Short Track ice boots are $2150 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MattP Posted September 17, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 17, 2013 and I thought paying 2k for a waterski was a tad crazy.. Custom bindings do peak my intrest though.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted September 17, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted September 17, 2013 BraceMaker Thanks for the compliment on the castings, and those are not my best molds as I was casting my own feet. Alginate gives great detail and when I first started I was using it but it was very expensive, heavy to drag around through airports, made a huge mess and took lots of extra equipment to get the casts done + there are lots of issues on feet size when the alginate pushes away or collapses into the plaster due to its own weight. I now us standard casting tape from Gypsona and do a clam shell mold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Waternut Posted September 17, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 17, 2013 Just an idea... What about just using a stiff two piece boot with expanding foam or even a very thick heat moldable liner and pull a mold from that? Or is that kinda what you're doing already? There were a lot of big words in your last post that I don't understand... That was my basic concept when I got bored at work one day. Then reality hit and I realized I'm not at a level where I need that kind of thing and it's a lot of work for one boot for myself especially since running 28 off is a good day for me right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted September 17, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 17, 2013 @brewski - gotcha - that's still good detail for Gypsona - I hate the creamy mess that makes. Oddly with that amount of detail I usually end up rectifying it all out anyhow if I'm making a last form. I've done some with STS socks and vacuum over the casting sock - pretty nice with low effort - but I'd like to see you cast someone sometime - you have it down pat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted September 17, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted September 17, 2013 BraceMaker: I've literately done thousands of feet, I'v got lots of tricks that make the Gypsona quick easy and not messy at all and like you when its all done the last covers all the detail but the detail is what I need to insure I am making everything perfect. Just so folks know waterskis take around an hour from start to putting it in the box for shipping, I know I made skis before. ST Speedskating boots are around 80-100 hrs in a pair I don't make good money but my products are the best bar none. Waternut: all those big word are just stuff that it takes to make a true aerospace composite carbonfiber shell. I also worked with Intuition (the same folks that make FM liners) on some prototypes in the early 2000s but found the thick liners and even some thinner ones are just no good after heat molding (AM and KLP will tell you the same) when you heat mold them they do not make customs but semi customs and that the pad goes thin in places and thick in others not giving the proper support of the bottom of the foot needs to transfer into the ski. KLP and AM cut the bottoms out of their liners and have thin stuff of some kind sewn or glued on so their foot is as close to the bottom of the boot as possible (direct connet). On my customs there is NO padding in the bottom so you feel everything and the response to the ski is amazing so much less effort. *****And after reading your post a second time I think you are talking about something to do the original casts. I built casting boxes and used alginate which is made from sea weed and is used for Dental impressions it comes in a powder form you add water then pour it into the casting boxes around the feet it turns to a semi firm gel. Then you slit the back of the box and pull the foot out and fill it with plaster another powder you mix with water and you got to do that right away or the alginate starts to shrink. Whereas the Gypsona is the same plaster bandages they use to make a cast if you break you leg, arm or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted September 17, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 17, 2013 Do you add the liner after you laminate the shell or is the shell laminated over the liner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted September 17, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted September 17, 2013 Secret there Brace, sorry. Lets get together and make these. The whole problem is I am 1 person trying to do the work of 20........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted September 17, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 17, 2013 That's not the issue - 1 off laminated sports products take a lot of time to make - and you need clients who assign enough value to what you do. Comparing what you make to your reimbursement, and knowing that lots of the components that you are using are similar to what I use. I'd also imagine you have more rework than you'd like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted September 17, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted September 17, 2013 Brace, YOU UNDERSTAND COMPLETELY WHERE I AM COMING FROM. Yes, we use very similar materials, from the same supply houses I am sure. I am not being cocky when I say this" I am the best at what I do". I get re-work about once every couple of years if that, usually when the skaters foot has grown before I get them shipped out. Young skaters are a real problem but their parents insist so I tell them up front that I add room for growth but sometimes it is not enough for a growing child but if I have to re-make a boot due to growth it is coming out of their pockets. I have built some prosthesis parts also using my techniques. For the most part they fit extremely well and like anything that is custom made they need a little tweaking here and there. Most skate manufacturers do LOTS of re-work because they just throw shit at the wall to get the almighty credit card and hope some of that shit sticks. They do have 20 people building them and 19 of them are not any kind of professional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted September 17, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 17, 2013 Yaaaa... as you say, so long as it is just you; there is 100% quality control at every stage in production. Over cooked that EVA? Save yourself 10 hours of remaking a liner down the road by throwing it out now... For others reading, 1 rework in a couple years is huge. If you've ever taken off your fitted downhill boots (intuition liners or not) mid day and bummed around a ski lodge, then tried to cram your foot back in, you'll see that volumetric changes of the feet are LARGE. @brewski's product appears to have very low leniency to volumetric errors, the boot wraps the entirety of the foot and includes toe character in the impressions. His mold rectification appears... minimal. In the photos on his website . I would guess most of the users of this product have a variety of very thin athletic socks to fine tune fit as the boot is very intimate to the foot. Prosthetics for the most part utilize cushioned liners, tolerences are much larger than you find in fitting feet, particularly under the stresses you can imagine a skate can impart onto the foot during speed skating (which I do not do). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted September 17, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted September 17, 2013 @BraceMaker, Thanks for helping folks understand them a little better. When I do castings for skaters with larger feet I try to get them in the morning as the feet get larger all day. I cast my feet in the morning and evening one time there is about 1/2-1 width size different at the end of the day just walking around the shop. Waterski boots need to be a LOT more room than skate boots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted September 17, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted September 17, 2013 @efw good one~! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted September 17, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted September 17, 2013 @efw find me a company that wants to run with this and I'll throw boots at you~! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller baja Posted September 17, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 17, 2013 @Brewski, you may be underestimating the crazy amount of money some of the BOS addicts are willing to invest in their passion. Audiophiles can spend $20k on a turntable alone while the rest of us use an iPod as the source. Since you are already at max capacity for a one man custom shop with an Olympic Gold medal reputation that does make it hard to add another distraction. However higher demand for the ultimate experience just makes the price go up. One of my musician buddies just took delivery of his second James A. Olson guitar. These guitars are all hand made by Jim Olson and played by the likes of James Taylor etc. About 5 years ago Jim said he needed to take more time off to relax. After 9 months off, his customer base supported him doubleing the price to about $13k and reducing the number he would make annually to 36. My point is that maybe there is a market for a $3000 custom made über-light waterski boot setup. You certainly have the pedigree to offer one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patmaster Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Sure there is. How much would you pay to ski better and not hurt your ankle/s and achilles...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted September 17, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted September 17, 2013 There was a fellow at Nationals at Okeeheelee maybe five years ago. He made custom carbon speed skate boots that he adapted to water ski bindings. He made numerous molds of people's feet and took orders. I don't exactly recall the price, but maybe around $1000 per pair. I saw one pair labelled "K LaPoint" and another labelled "Leachman." There were many others. Not to rain on any parades but I never saw a pair on the water, ever, and he was never seen at Nationals again (at least by me, and I admit to skipping WIlmington). That said, I have no idea if it was him, if he couldn't make them for the price or if they simply didn't work. Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted September 17, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted September 17, 2013 @lpskier that was me. KLP skied a boot of mine for years...1999-2002?. I did 3 casts in WPB. Anna Gay, KLP and his wife. The green boot above was one I built for Anna Gay to trick on but her foot grew too fast. I have KLP and Leachman's feet in the garage still and Kris' original boot that did not fit anymore after he had corrective ankle surgery to fix a huge pronation issue. I had to develop the plate system that cost so much time and $$ that I kept the plates for myself. I axed the project until now. Russell Gay traded me some ropes and handles for the boot set up. No one else mentioned above care to spend anything for the cause... Just saying..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted September 18, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted September 18, 2013 Oh yeah I cast Russell's feet also and his son Ryan. I have the feet out there too.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted September 18, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted September 18, 2013 Sooooo how many feet are actually in your garage? That's kinda creepy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted September 18, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted September 18, 2013 nullKLP's Frankenboot this is the "after" I will try to find the "before" pic @wish what is creepy about plaster feet, its not a foot morgue~! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted September 18, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 18, 2013 What I'm surprised no one has asked about is the offset of the front horseshoe to move the foot centerline axis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted September 18, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 18, 2013 LOL - you never want to throw out something that worked - to avoid having to try to replicate your work. I'd just give the casts back to the client - let them bring them back if they worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted September 18, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted September 18, 2013 @BraceMaker my process the cast is smashed out, it will not come out when finished. I tried methods were you pull the foot out early but the boots never fit right. I do the Duplicasts (copy the cast) before making the boots for some skaters but they have to pay for that option. @ShaneH the offset is to get your foot and weight transfer down the middle of the ski. If you look at all the hardshells on the market most have your foot to the side but nobody realizes it.....Your big toe goes to one side or the other not down the middle of the foot....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted September 18, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted September 18, 2013 @Brewski Now I gotta check my hardshells. I made mine and am sure it's not off center like that. That's interesting. But at the same time I dont think that my big toe is down the center of the ski even though the boot is centered. What would that off center do to performance? on side? off side? Also, what do you think of elevating the heels especially standard roller blade boots considering they are designed to slant down hill when mounted to the blades (they do not sit level on the blade).? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MattP Posted September 18, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 18, 2013 @brewski you are right that hardshell do not sit flat and is one reason I have molded bondo that allows the binding to sit flush onto the plate. Crude but it works. You have really peaked my interest with your custom bindings. I am in the market for a new set up this winter.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted September 18, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 18, 2013 makes sense on the smashing. Once the padding packs out you cannot pour out the old shell and get back to new fit either. About 6 months ago I was looking at a last carving machine out of Colorado - probably not accurate enough for your process, was being used to carve lasts for custom bike shoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted September 18, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted September 18, 2013 @wish with customs they are the shape of the foot so you have to have the hoop adjustable that is why I designed the plates to accommodate right or left foot forward and completely adjustable to any foot. "ALL FEET ARE DIFFERENT": I've done thousands of cast and never seen the same foot 2x so that toe peice need to adjust to each individual foot. In stock boots your big toe does not go to the end of the boot but slightly to the side. When I put on a stock HS boot my pressure is not down the exact center but ever so slightly to the right (right foot forward). Reflex/Quantum hardshells are boot that were originally designed for entry level ice blades and rollers in the Nederlands where people skate on canals and paths that run along side them. They have a 10mm rise front to back. @MattP yes bondo or an epoxy putty will work wonders and also allow it up the sides a ways to hold in place (per KLP) I use the epoxy putty from POR15 it is a little stronger and gives you plenty of time to work with. I am not using it on my front set up this season but the red pair had putty front and back. I am using it to bump up my rear heal for better knee alignment and it helps center your weitht distribution/balance in the turn (per Schnitz via GOODE). This post is really getting me excited about making ski boots. This winter will be my last run at the Olympics I decided that last season and started scaling down the # of orders. I am getting really freed up for this winter and if we can get something going that would rock. I think AM,CP and company are still really interested as AM was training with KLP when he was on my boots and like what he saw transpire in Kris' skiing. @BraceMaker: there is a company out of the Nederlands that uses a laser scan to do their casts that then use plastic to build up a last somehow. May be the same thing. Major $$ and the casts are pathetic at best. They look like the foot but they have lots of RE-Work or returns with super poor fit. They give your money back if you don't like them and that is at least 30 may be 50% of the time per their distributors here in the states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted September 18, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 18, 2013 Not quite the same thing. Scanning/shape acquisition is one step in the process, you can also digitize a physical impression in several ways including mechanical - probe digitizers and via laser scan - scanning a homogenous surface such as a plaster cast is more accurate than a foot - also and I feel like this is the problem that the company you are mentioning has - if you have a foot and scan the surface you are not loading/controlling the surface. I'd imagine when you do your bivalve cast you reinforce areas of the impression and physically correct or align the footplate, perhaps using something like memory foam in a plastic bag for plantar contours, perhaps on top of a casting platform that duplicates the heel over toe height of the skate blade holders. And you likely take the impression with consideration to knee angles, and possibly you consider the nature of the sport in terms of how much time is spent skating flat vs. turning and the directionality of the ice rink. When you scan a physical foot all those alignments are very difficult to duplicate. If you have plaster you can load areas of the foot/leg that you plan on bearing forces, and you can provide loading on the plaster - deforming the soft tissues in a way that a scan does not. Your pictures have me geeked out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted September 18, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted September 18, 2013 @BraceMaker you are DEAD ON EVERYTHING~! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted September 18, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted September 18, 2013 @BraceMaker now your just showing off. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted September 18, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 18, 2013 @wish - I have a physical table of dismantled ski boots, roller blades, and Orthotic parts. It runneth over. If I weren't gainfully employed I would be fiddling with custom ski boots. I even have impressions of my head to fiddle around with custom jump helmets, impressions of my feet laying around that I haven't had time to even fill. Hopefully some day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted September 18, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted September 18, 2013 @BraceMaker been there done that threw it all in the trash and started from scratch....WE need to be gainfully self employed making these..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller JohnCox Posted September 18, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 18, 2013 That is extremely cool...I have thought about a carbon fiber binding. And am interested in one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jipster43 Posted September 18, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 18, 2013 I'm fairly well convinced that there is a market for a binding like this. The main obstacle as @Brewski and @BraceMaker have pointed out is the production side of it. There are a handful of very skilled (snow)ski boot fitters throughout the country that you may be able to bring into the fold. Of course, they are accustom to making quite a bit of money per boot fit, so you may have to follow more of a cooperative business model, but the re-work would be kept to a minimum and the start-up/risk would be spread out a little. I'm not talking about boot fitters who work at a ski shop and have taken a handful of boot fitting clinics. I'm talking about the fellas that do nothing but boot fittings and travel the mountain towns doing just that. Brent Amsbury in Park City, UT comes to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator1 Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 So, my buddy with the machine shop and I are thinking about designing and selling a universal plate with a streamlined gatormod integrated. It would mount to the ski with duallok, and accept most hardshells. In principle, this would allow all the rotational injuries to be covered by the "two feet in" approach, and the rotational release offered by the duallok interface is an added safety margin. The OTF injury mode and the crushing OTF mode are covered by the gatormod, and again the duallok interface is added safety margin. Added benefit is the duallok could be amped up a little bit, providing a little extra retention since the gatormod will always force the OTF release. Also, ballers who want to stay in rubber could mount their boots on the plate, and add a retention feature (basically a snap lock collar) which keeps both feet in the boots, but allows the rubber feel to be unchanged. Again, this fixes the one-foot-out rotational risk of rubbers while adding the protection against crushing OTFs. So far, the streamlined gatormod has a Velcro strap above the knee, and a "caribiner" quick disconnect to the leash to the levers. So you strap on the Velcro as you are sitting in the boat, and leave it on until you go home. Like a very wimpy knee brace. The carabiner allows you to make the connection after you get both feet in the boots, and make the disconnection in the water as you are taking the boots off. So I'm looking for feedback here: do you guys think people would want this thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MattP Posted September 18, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 18, 2013 @gator1 I think I see what you are getting at. I'm a visual person though. I would start another thread/poll with a different title and see what kind of response you get from the ballers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E_T Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 @brewski wouldt laser scanning the foot then 3Dprinting the foot would give you a good posittive to make a mold? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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