Bindings, All In or All Out?

[swerveit]

Don’t panic, Im not going to flog a dead horse and ask the question whats the safest binding.

 

To suggest a setup is tried and tested for X months or years or used by “x” pro, I don’t think is a measure of safety.

For example: I have had the same setup as another skier, yet I’ve broken my ankle twice, they haven’t had so much as a sprain.

Some people go through there whole ski life with nothing, and others not so fortunate.

However if you fall into the later category you soon start to read up and are much more aware of your bindings..

 

With that in mind: I believe knowing the mechanics and the variables you can reduce the likelihood of an injury.

I ski double boots, and I’m so adamant that a crash with 1 foot in will lead to an injury – which limits my boot selection to 3 maybe 4 Manufactures.

For me, the injury reduction equation is = All in or All out - am I alone in this thought process?

If not, why are manufactures not producing more products like single plate setups or setups that insure release should one foot come out.

 

 

[Stevie Boy]

@swerveit I agree with your thoughts, in my opinion you either want BOTH Feet to stay in, or Both Feet to release, which ever way your system, should do one or the other, no compromises.

As stated people have had nasty injuries on all types of binding setup, or though not as much control, at least rubber does give a bit, not as comfortable though.

[Chef23]

@swerveit I would venture that there are two issues impacting why there aren't more binding systems like you would like. First is lack of consensus that all in/all out is better. I for one have been skiing in a RTP for 40+ years without a issue and I have friends that have been hurt skiing in a RTP, and with all in/all out systems. You can get hurt on any system.

 

This lack of consensus leads somewhat to what I see as the second issue which is that there just isn't a big enough of a market to drive more manufacturers to produce a 5th or 6th option. If the business was there more options would exist.

[oldjeep]

As a monoskier, my answer is definitely all out. Doing a 1 boot release puts the entire force of that huge lever on your other foot. I realize that it is different on water since you are going from 35ishmph to 0 pretty quickly where on snow you could be tumbling for a while.

[swerveit]

@Chef23‌ I completely understand that we are in a cottage industry, and that we can get hurt what ever we do. its that nature of the beast that you and I love.

 

what I say from here is out of frustration, certainly not aimed at a company('s)

 

I have learnt; that me personally, I'm susceptible to a particular type of crash. Therefor would like option: 4 or 5. having said that: I'm not overlay impressed with 1,2 or 3 I don't think velcro, double rubber, removable liners, 30 year old snow ski tech, garage made binders are good enough. again, its just through my experience.

 

 

The R&D budget within snow ski/snow boards is astronomical compared to ours. why don't they reverse engineer what is already been built? I have to good affect, with very little budget and time. seriously, take the time to go into a snow ski shop and check the kit out! wow!!!

with a little imagination you can easily see the potential of a setup using 2014 materials, technology and design.

 

Why do we drop 2k on carbon, to screw roller blades or a flip flop on it? - it makes no sense to me. Its like removing the spoiler from lewis Hamiltons F1 car and strapping a baking tray on it?!

I would HAPPILY have a 10 year old ski design and a machine, purpose built binders (by design)with a mechanical release.

and I bet you a beer you'd just as good BUT safer.

 

what I'm saying is Dear ski manufactures, I'm happy if you didn't spend so much on skis R&D and spent a little more on binders. They are just as important as the carbon they are strapped to.

How much more can a ski really evolve? - ???

How much more can a Binding evolve? - about 60 years id say.

 

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

I've been a fairly firm believer in all-in/all-out since I came very close to tearing up my knee in a tournament about 15 years ago when my rear foot slipped from the toe and my front foot was still firmly in my rubber boot. I now use two rubber boots (because that's where I get my best scores), but I've felt for some time that single plate systems were the safest.

 

But I'm starting to change my tune, and it's mostly because I've been thinking about the OB4 system. That system offers a degree of safety that I think may be impossible with a single-plate system (maybe even with the Gatormod). The fundamental problem is that you can get some giant and ugly-direction forces on your front foot before that translates to the forces needs to release from the back.

 

The OB4 system cannot guarantee a simultaneous release, but it can release in response to forces in nearly any direction on either foot. IF we could be sure that a given foot would always release when the forces could cause injury, then the all-in/all-out notion would be moot. The reason is that having just one foot in wouldn't be dangerous any more -- we'd know that single foot was going to release if it needed to.

 

I have no clue if the OB4 system has achieved any of this -- I've never even seen one much less tested it. But just looking and thinking about the design has made me consider some "theoretical" points about safety. And I now lean toward the following being the Holy Grail:

 

Always release when any dangerous force is acting on that foot.

[GOODESkier]

I have the opinion that if both feet are in the same plate there is less risk. No data or anything other than my own perception to support that claim.

[Garn]

The question was asked why more manufacturers aren't making more single release systems. HO spent tons of time, R&D, and money developing the EXO releasable bindings. But for whatever reason, they weren't very popular, few people used them, and now they have dropped the product. I don't know why more people didn't even try them out. You were guaranteed a simultaneous release with them. I love mine. Extremely comfortable and they work great.

[swerveit]

I would prefer to take those ugly force directions with my two feet over the one poor foot that didn't release....

 

"energy transferred will always reduce"

throw a rock at 2 sheets of glass, it will get through the first sheet, it may not the second.

 

Ski world application: ok, so both binders set the same tension.

bad OTF - enough energy releases the back foot - The energy that it took to make that mechanism release is now lost by "x" %. what happens when the transferred energy isn't enough to release your remaining foot? - this is exactly what happened to me!

 

I'm not saying independent releases are wrong, they are just wrong for me. They have many safety features over a mono plate solution.

but to design a independent system that guarantees the instant release of the other foot should one detach.... that is the holy grail! - both camps of thought process would want this = £££! or in most of your cases = $$$

 

@Garn‌ I tried on the HO system they were on the right track and I liked them, for me, the boot was to low. means that the majority of the force would be on the ankle (which mine are very week). if it was a higher boot i would have been sold! i just need a little more support.

[gator1]

@swerveit You're on the right path. Just because somebody skied it for years doesn't mean its safe.

 

I get a kick out of all the people bitching about why we can't get bindings like the snow ski industry. They've obviously never seen the stats on knee and ankle injuries for snow ski.

 

In the absence of data, which may not exist and if it did isn't going to be something the manufacturers want to share, what do we do?

 

The only path I can see is to analyze the designed release modes of a given binding against the known types of falls we have.

 

I think it was you that went just a little ways down that path by asking about a simultaneous release on a certain binding. The ballers didn't like that. I find in general that binding manufacturers don't want to answer questions about how their design works, because EVERY binding on the market has a theoretical flaw when its release modes are compared against three basic fall types: crushing OTF, peeling OTF, and twisting. And, lawyers.

 

People who use a given binding don't want to engage in the theoretical discussion, because few want to think about bad stuff happening to them, few have the mechanical aptitude to join the discussion, and when you look for the people who are both willing to talk about bad stuff and have the aptitude to add to the discussion the population is very small.

 

Since you asked the question, my answer is: beyond any shadow of a doubt, ALL IN. Than Bogan is a smart guy, so it'd be interesting to hear his theories. But I had 9 months and two surgeries more motivation to think about it than he has.

 

I can tell you at length why, but I'm very tired of this mortally wounded horse. Most of my buddies are now safe, another batch of gatormods ships this weekend, and once @OB gets done fighting the city of Atlanta we'll get a read on the ultimate answer.

 

 

[skier2788]

I love my Reflex with R style rear. Had a few one foot releases with my strada's and a few falls where I partially came out but not a full release. In my opinion that was the worst kind of fall. Switched to the Reflex and LOVE it. The R style rear gives considerable more support than a rear toe. I don't believe I can ever have a one foot in one foot out crash. I can change the release point to a setting that will easily release without hurting me. You knock the 30 year old ski technology but as a snow skier and waterskier I am extremely happy with my Reflex. Just cause its old doesn't mean it's not safe. There isn't enough money in the world to build a boot or ski that everyone is going to like feel is safe and at a price point it will sell at. There are several options for a single plate release FM, PS5 and exo's come to mind. If you don't want a single plate release there is reflex fogman FM Connolly stealth and many more. The releases I just mentioned aren't total reliant on the liners to release. The sport is dangerous no matter what binding you have you can get hurt. Even if you had bindings with millions of dollars of R&D. My advice is contact @Brewski‌ and then buy an OB4 system. You can ski on my 04 HO Truth. I will ride my 14 A3 with my 30 year old snow ski boots.

[GOODESkier]

@Garn I think you have to look at the people skiing on hardshell releasable bindings. I am going to go out on a limb and say it would be comprised 90% of REFLEX and GOODE. I could be wrong and have no data to support my claim. I never saw anyone ski well on the HO hardshells.................

[Wish]

ALL IN. Been using hard shell boots permanently mounted to the ski (with a plate) since 2001. Spent a couple yrs on a velco release. Never released. After watching Big Dawgs yr after yr take huge crashes without releasing and no injury that I witnessed, I went back to direct mount. My feeling is similar to some comments above. I want that crazy load in a fall to pass right on by my joints and small bones and head to the nearest large mass bone. My boots are tall up on the shin. Boot cuffs are stupid stiff and brutally strong, but have foreword/aft movement. The bad... an OTF off the second wake. Face chest get planted, ski does not release and begins to travel in the same direction only it's above me moving faster then I am as I enter the water. Result... mega tweaked mid back. It does not bend that way. All other falls in the last 14 yrs have seen 0 injury of any serious nature. The back thing did scare the crap out of me though.

 

Also factor in the skier. For me the "go for that half ball" is off the table...ESPECIALLY in practice. In the last 10yrs I have tossed the line away more often then not. I do not take hits or big risks. I stay at a line length until it is dialed and only push the envelope periodically.

 

If you're a "go for it" skier then you may experience more injury. Even ALL IN is not the best option. But it seems to be the best option for me.

[eleeski]

Injuries due to release issues are rare. Performance compromises will be felt every single pass.

 

@swerveit‌ A toe kicker with a rubber heel strap will keep your rear foot in as much as your front foot in most falls. You do have more choices than you think. The R&D that goes into bindings is substantial and quite advanced. Rollerblade shells are pretty optimum for waterskiing demands. The attachment methods are quite creative offering light weight, comfort, usability, safety and performance. Maybe not as slick or polished as you like. Remember, cosmetics don't get you buoys (or trick points).

 

Locked in single plates may protect in certain falls but add a different set of injury possibilities. @Than_Bogan‌ The Holy Grail is still a cup and can spill when tipped. I like my sippy cup.

 

I've actually seen several injuries from trying to get out of rubber bindings after the run is over. Staying "all in" too much?

 

It is a bit hokey when the release system is to rip the bindings out of the ski - but I bring a backup ski for my second pass.

 

Eric

 

@oldjeep‌ We need to snow ski together someday. I need the monoski GNAR points! Wait, how does tomahawking work on a monoski?

[swerveit]

Wish list: Stealth boots with buckles, on a single plate with a OB4 release...

 

 

[Chef23]

@sweveit you could do that but it would be expensive.

[swerveit]

@Chef23‌ - I've tried! I've contacted the right people, completely ignored!

[eleeski]

@swerveit‌ I replaced the shoelace on the foot of my Radar boots with a clip off a Rollerblade. Easy and cheap. Plus I can unclip for easy egress and to let my foot relax between passes. I'm not sure how Stealth boots are built but the Radar mod was simple.

 

Modifying the OB4 system might be more of a challenge.

 

Eric

[Than_Bogan]

Firstly, I forgot to state previously that I think an OB4-like system that can also guarantee to release the other foot whenever one foot releases would almost never make you worse off. I haven't yet heard of how to engineer that, but I'm sure someone will figure it out eventually.

 

@gator1: The example I'm about to give is fairly dumb, because it would take a really goofy crash to make this happen. But it happens to be the easiest one to visualize, so I'll start there.

 

Suppose I am right foot forward -- woah how did I guess that!? Something tries to drive my right knee to the right and my left knee to the left. These two torques on my feet, if summed, cancel out, so a single plate has no cause to release.

 

A system like the OB4 could release both feet.

 

The specific problem that the Gatormod addresses could also be considered an example. The force of only the front heel trying to lift off the boot may not be enough to cancel the downward force still present on the rear foot, so that in net the boot cannot release. The Gatormod manages to move the force to the release point, which I previously stated (and haven't changed my mind) is extremely elegant. However, another option is for that front foot torque to release that boot's heal.

 

I think there's a good chance that the single-plate + Gatormod is (still) the over safest system currently known.

 

BUT I believe that are potential benefits to independent release that I have previously been ignoring. This is relevant whenever the forces acting on each foot "disagree." I'm not sure how frequently such cases arise, but it's damn hard to predict exactly what will get pushed where in a slalom crash.

 

So I am far from claiming any answer. Just getting a little smarter about the possibilities.

[Chef23]

@swerveit I meant you could buy a full set of Stealths. Another option might be to look for a used set of Fogmans. They are the precursor to the Stealths.

[swerveit]

Well I've gone for a set of Stealths, hopefully will get them next week. I had a demo set and tried them on every day for 5 days to be fair they have an exact fit every time, which I wasn't expecting with laces. Think the front strap helps to that effect. I may build a carbon plate for the boots to sit on. il see how stiff/heavy the current plate is. If I can get buckles on them il do it. Might take them to a snow ski shop that have a work shop.

[Brewski]

My new plates are sick. Full front and back Reflex release mechanism's. They don't always release at the same time but they do both release when needed..... Baseless/Weightless/Well Hell there not even there at all.....

Sorry, Not going to show them 'till Nationals (if then) too may spies out here.....LOL.....No really~!!!!

[eleeski]

@Brewski‌ Cover them with tin foil!

[Brewski]

@eleeski Keeps the aliens tune in. Got My favorite martian in the garage grindinga way on 'em with the elves that make the shoes (boots) don't ya know~~!

[BraceMaker]

Brewski you use Barge Glue dont' you...

[Brewski]

@BraceMaker No but it is good. I have not tested in the water but it is rubber based so I can not see it going bad......pain in the but but just do 3 coats......

[A_B]

I wonder how many falls that end up in injury were for that "extra half point" as @Wish stated. IF there was more time, it makes me wonder if the skier would say "watch this", and we all know how those end up. It's just so hard to let go or back off!

 

I prefer to get ejected out of both, or not fall at all!

[Waternut]

I've been injured with double rubber boots, doible hard shells on a single plate, rubber with a rtp, and hard shell with a rtp. Thankfully none were serious but some will nag me for the rest of my life. What I've learned so far... a single plate with double boots didn't work well in a straight otf because your back heel is pushing the bindings into the ski and it's a violent release when you hit the water. Double rubber boots only works if you know the difference between too tight and secure...I don't know the difference. For me reflex front and rtp has been the safest and it's the nicest on my back.

 

Ultimately, exercising caution on when to go for it when you get behind and when to save yourself for the next pass should be the first line of defense...not the bindings. I still go for quite a lot but there are some things that I know are stupid now.

[swerveit]

Interesting points from all, however I see more for All in than All out... would be an interesting Poll. It maybe a different opinion to the perspective of the manufactures.

 

 

[swerveit]

please see exhibit A: - boots by USD, Buckles by Soloman, Release by 3m velcro and Voile plunger, plate by reflex, Liners by Intuition. - none of which are actually made for waterskiing.....cobbled together over the last 2 years.

And weigh about the same as a small planet..

Ironic considering I have one of the lightest skis on the market.

[SkiJay]

I just need to give a shout out to Radar Stradas for releasing me yesterday in one of the riskiest type of falls--jamming the tip and crushing into the ski.

 

I consider double Stradas to be an "all in or all out" binding choice, and it was a grateful moment yesterday when I emerged from this crushing fall with both Achilles tendons intact. I must have crushed straight into the ski in this sudden stop because my toes were still in the bindings but both heels had levered clear of the tops of the boots.

 

I now have a heightened appreciation for the risk presented by single plate systems.

 

Thank you Stradas!

[PatM]

While we are on this subject for those using Reflex, What number do you have the release set at?

[CWiedmer]

@swerveit I have that same setup. And I love it. I came OTF this last weekend and didn't hurt one bit and had a clean release. I am young but have had some bad single foot release crashes in my short life. That is why I went with a mono plate system.

 

On an interesting note, did you screw on ski boot straps? Or are those off a Powershell setup?

[kfennell]

I have the same system too minus the buckles. I keep meaning to bring them with me when I go to a big city with a snowski store to get the buckles.

 

IMO it is the safest system on the market and I have had a bunch of HARD OTF and crushed into the ski falls learning to run 36 22

 

[BraceMaker]

@cwiedmer @swerveit‌

 

The Venerable FM design (as of course I see the carbon plate - but I see the FM plastic boot plate and the FM "powerblock". Although you both choose the single plate...

 

IMO the biggest problem with single plates is that you cannot maneuver with them on, in a fall with release I can be on the platform, ski back on in 10 seconds and back in the water. I can walk around somewhat on docks/platform enter/exit boat.

 

That said - one thing that I think assists the FM plastic plate in safety is that it is so bendy that if your front ankle is pulled up it will bend the plate lowering the rear pin tension and then its a question of how much velcro you have installed and where it is.

[Skier15]

Are the RadaR bindings any good??

[bigtex2011]

Well this thread has become near and dear to me as I broke my ankle last Thursday. I've been skiing with a Reflex/ animal set up for 2 years. Before that maybe 4 or five years on an Approach/ animal set up. I've been skiing for 20 plus years and have never been hurt to bad skiing. I'd probably run 10- 38's last week and felt like i had it going pretty well. I kept my release set at 7 because I believed in the "all in" theory. I didn't take too bad of fall. I was sliding on my back. As I lost momentum, the ski caught an edge and fractured my Fibula. Both feet stayed in. Best case scenario, I can make my comeback around the week of regional s or between regional s and nationals with a medical exception. I'm not sure what direction I will take once I get off the sick. But I am thinking of lightening the release of my front binding and loosening my back binder.

[MattP]

@bigtex2011‌ I'm sorry to hear that. I busted up my ankle last season in a similar fall with a Reflex release. I would suggest looking at the OB4 System when you need to get back on the water. I believe it to be the safest release out there and it will release in the type of fall you had. Also I am a firm believer in not mixing bindings from the front to rear.. as each release in different methods and under different circumstances.

[bigtex2011]

@Mattp thanks.. I looked at the OB4 system earlier in the year. I'll be looking at any and all systems. It's hard to say what I will end up on. The system I use is a very popular set up. I don't really want to abandon it but I will rethink the "all in " theory. thx again. CS

[MattP]

@bigtex2011‌ Sounds good. Popular or not it did not work well apparently.. Meth is popular too but I don't follow the crowd.. but I digress... Heal up soon and get back on the water!

[bigtex2011]

HEHE. meth gets a bad rap.

[Patmaster]

Very interesting comments from all. I'd prefer ALL IN since it is logical that your ankles have a better chance of surviving. That said, ALL IN does not necessarily prevent fractures or Achilles tendon injuries. It will also require a different way of skiing and it will be hard to accept for some. Stealths were supposed to be the best Fogmans ever. With more user-friendly boots they could be just that. I do believe in a one plate systems as well, so if something should release at all, then the whole plate with both feet in. I think OB4 will be a super-interesting alternative to Reflex, for all of the Reflex front people. For double hard-shells...time will tell, but I'd still put my money on some future version of Fogmans/Stealth, with a better and more precise release mechanism (snow-ski like), while keeping the possibility to put whatever we want on the plate - Fogmans, Stealths, Powershells, or Reflex boots. In the meantime, I'll stick to my not-that-old Fogmans, on a custom carbon plate, hoping that the bone-crushing fall will not happen. The issue of pre-release must be tackled also, since it is equally dangerous to a non-release situation. Or, according to some pros - way more dangerous!

[swerveit]

@CWiedmer - the ratchet system (original buckles) on my FM's was week, and i was pulling them open in the pass so went down to my local snow ski shop and raided the spares. cost me like $20 to set both boots up with good buckles. also with proper buckles you can get a consistent fit. the ratchet i found either too tight too loose...

I put a carbon plate on as I kept bending the Aluminium plate that the block was on. FMs are great for safety and comfort however I needed improvement on performance. the velco was hit and miss, i had too much movement in the power block as the peg that goes into it, on the plastic plate was cut too narrow (or the block to wide) the actual mono plate i found was too soft and my leverage was bending/lifting it off the ski. basically I'm just too far out to get replacement pieces for them, shipping costs a fortune. i had them for 2 years and they were great during this time for safety. but every week id have to change or replace something.

 

@BraceMaker- ive skied 6 months and only had 1 release. therefor lack of mobility once that release happens doesn't bother me. rather have 5 minutes lack of movement and climbing on the swim deck than 6 months of a cast and rehab. however i do agree its a bit of a pest once you have released.

 

 

 

However I have now switched to Connelly Stealths. which is the best decision I've ever made in skiing. My old FMs weighed more than my ski and new binders put together! the boot is far narrower (not in fit). I've never thought about it, but watching a number of videos i noticed that the FM boots would catch the water and throw me a little off balance. the control and leverage is far better on the stealths, where the carbon shoe finishes and the leather upper starts is a perfect blend of support/stiffness.

 

i thought it would take me at least month to get on with them. 10 sets in and Ive increased my average count. way more consistent also. don't get me wrong the first week i was in the garage ALOT trying to get them right, it was a ball ache. but once right, i didn't have to worry about pieces bending/breaking slipping etc etc. phenomenal set up!!!

 

on Sunday had a crushing off side tip dig to tail slide, the exact type of crash that broke my ankle.

i maybe have one a year. while it was happening you can think if allot of things you can do while your laid up at home in a cast.....playstation, beer, sleep.

boat span real quick as he could tell it was one of "those" falls.

after a few seconds i was laughing my arse off, ski was off 30 foot from me and ankle not even a ache or a twinge! I'm honestly the happiest chappy at the lake for having that crash!

 

if you are in the "all in" camp check out stealths i swear by them!

 

I've seen OB4's, the finish on the plate system is epic, i mean Audi epic! really precise flawless finish. this is the system you need if you want independent release. if weight doesn't bother you these will last a lifetime and without issue. OB4 has taken a massive leap in the right direction and is a benchmark for quality. they really are that good. however for me, you will have to prise my Stealths out of my cold, dead, blistered hands. love em!

[BraceMaker]

@swerveit - I release my plate everytime I drop. I don't remove my ratchets in the water.

[Rumjahn]

I just asked an orthopedic surgeon this question, and his response was All Out. He cited studies that were done in the '50's and '60's on cadaver ankles using crude methods like putting them in vise grips and applying force in all sorts of directions. The conclusion was that fractures happen more easily and severely if one part of the limb is locked down, as opposed to allowed to move freely. I asked whether this applied to a tight-fitting boot that extends above the ankle, and he said it doesn't matter, the force has to be transmitted somewhere. So either the ankle will break anyway, or you can suffer a knee or hip fracture. He said a sprained ankle is preferable to torn knee.

 

The logic make sense to me, so for now I'm All Out.

[BraceMaker]

@Rumjahn‌

I don't think anyone would disagree that both out is great.

 

My problem is systems that let both out can still trap one in. Unless both can be released fully every time it is an issue.

[mmosley899]

On the OB4 system, once the release pressure is exceeded for one boot, it is also exceeded for the other. Both feet come off. Just last week, i had a rare crushing out the front @'35 off, both boots released as expected. I have never had only one boot release!