How NOT to run 28 off

[MISkier]

I was a bit hesitant to post this, but I'm looking for some answers to my current 28 off challenges. Here is a video of a 28 off pass at 34 mph. It has the regular speed version and then a quarter speed version. Tips and analysis are appreciated.

 

It seems to start well and I think I might be up on the boat enough for 28 off. I would like a little more ski in the water during the glide. The pull through the gates/wakes seems to be a bit jarring and I separate from the handle. I try to regain control of that and stay on it into the edge change. I don't feel particularly narrow at 1 ball and the turn seems to go well. However, I am pulled forward right after one ball. Some recovery and a similar repeat at 2. I try to smooth it out for 3 and 4, but realize I am getting downcourse and revert to scramble mode to eke out the remaining 2 buoys. Finally, it culminates in...wait for it...40 feet of rope laying on the water and a big hit at the gates.

 

My success rate with 28 off this year is a bit better than last year and much better than two years ago. I've run it in two tournaments this year. I've also run it in 3 other tournaments during the pass back to the dock after missing it for the score. In practice, I usually run it once per collection of sets within about 2-4 attempts.

 

If the initial reaction is "take up golf", I do that about the same - flashes of "adequacy" intermingled with baffling exhibitions of poor execution.

 

[gregy]

On the glide I think you need to get your hips up more. Your hips are a little back and then you fall back more causing the ski to initially flatten out with some tip rise. I can't remember where I heard it but what I was told on the turn into the gate to show the top of the ski to the boat. To do this you need to have your COM up more of over the front foot and use the hips moving in the direction you want to travel to initiate the turn. I found this clip of skidawg that you can see what I'm talking about.

 

 

After that work on the over all stack. I wouldn't be so down on yourself, you look athletic, a few adjustments your be way past 28off. I for sure would been wiped out at first hit at one ball.

[A_B]

You are consistent, so a few tweaks to engrain and you should be spanking 28 in no time.

On your gate, look at the handle separation between hip and handle. Need to get your hip and chest up and lean away so the handle drops lower to your hip. You may need to drop your right hip down at turn in to avoid tail loading, but if you are going through the wakes or gates with the handle up and broke at the waist, that is your cue that it is bad position. This will give you more angle,and speed so you can actually ski always for the handle on your 135. Going into 246, I would like to see you pull your left shoulder back as you take your hand off and push your right hip forward over the front foot. Keep your left hand at your left waist and ski your left hip all,the way around to the handle. Hookup on your left hip and lean away, standing tall with chest up, not tail loading.

 

Very close to smoking the pass. Just cleanup the offside lean and entry into the buoy.

[ForrestGump]

In jest, I'll repeat what @Horton yelled at me the first time he saw me from the boat....

 

That was terrible! Who taught you that???

 

hehehe. Seriously, though. Fixing this is easy. From the time you roll out for the pullout, your hips are over your rear heel. Once you enter the course you can draw a line between the center of your feet, through your knees, and through your chest/shoulders. Your hips are nowhere close to being in line where they need to be.

 

Center of ski, Front heel/Rear Toe, hips, shoulders, head. All in line. Beat that into yourself. And then beat it into yourself some more. You get your core tightened up and you'll be spanking 28. And spanking 32.

 

[ToddL]

@ShaneH speaks the truth. No matter how "stacked" you may feel, if you can't get through -28, you probably aren't stacked enough. Video and pics don't lie. (I know from personal experience.)

 

[plubius]

 

While core training might be the best way to ski but it is not the only way. Many skiers ski the 28 off just like you differing only in technique. Let the boat go further thru the gates before you roll on edge at the first wake, immediately come up onto the opposite edge and counter with a strong pre turn edge change AND learn how how to coordinate a reliable extension producing the desired turn and hook up with the boat.

[MISkier]

Thanks to all responding thus far and thanks for the positive comments and prognosis for my improvement. The theme is hips up and improved stack/alignment. The thing about this video is that I captured it specifically to see if I was standing tall into the glide, as well as find my other faults. It was an eye opener to see that, not only was I not as tall as I thought I was making myself, I displayed much more "hips back" than I expected through the entire pass.

 

@gregy, thanks for that video of skidawg. That shows the tallness I need to achieve and the difference in what I actually have now. And, to be fair to myself, I can ski and have skied 28 off much better and without all the hits you see here. But, it seems to be more of a result of fortune that I stumble onto the correct gate to make that happen. When I start without that less optimal gate and the hit at one ball demonstrated in this sample, I can run the pass more smoothly with room to spare at the end. I just haven't figured out the formula to make my glide position and gate the way I need it every time. I also really haven't had a good approach to my turn in for the gate. Perhaps that is a factor of the COM, as you mention.

 

@AB, as I said above, I don't have a good approach for my gate turn in and frequently tail load it. I've never been comfortable with my turn in, it has never felt natural, and just seems to be an awkward action that I hope will at least provide the right timing and angle. So, I'll want to try to drop the right hip and any other suggestions you might have to actually make a real turn (and show the top of the ski as @gregy mentions). I'll also work on the counter rotation at 2,4,6 - which, oddly enough, seems to show up better/more automatically when I get a good stack and pull from 1,3,5 and am already early across the wake. When I'm scrambling, I close off a bit at 2,4,6 and ski defensively/compressed. Maybe foregoing the defensive skiing and working that counter rotation might have put me back on track in that scrambling pass.

-

@ShaneH, I had a question in relation to your point about hips up from the pullout. Is there anything I could/should be doing with the handle, legs/knees/ankles, shoulders, or head to help get the hips forward and in line with everything else? Basically, from the time I plane out and get set for the pullout, what would be some things to visualize or execute to get me set into the right position? It's true that I am not naturally lined up right from the get-go and that is a fundamental change to make. I can try the glute clench, but will that be enough or are there other things to adjust along with that? I agree with you that changing this particular aspect will require focus, focus, and more focus. My muscle memory needs to be reprogrammed. I do know that, when I must have stumbled on reasonable hip alignment in some passes, it has felt awesome and easy. But, since I don't capture much video, I'm not seeing what I did correctly to repeat it.

 

@plubius, it seems like you are suggesting a later turn in for the gates. That is what I was doing a couple years ago with a lot of narrow one ball results and significantly less successful 28 off passes. Some previous video coaching identified the late gate as a problem for me and correcting it made an immediate improvement. It's true that I can get through 28 off by making some changes with my current stack, but I think the shorter line lengths are subsequently eliminated without a change to my core and hip alignment. Plus, as I get older, I think an improved body position will be more kind to my body. My right elbow has been on fire for about a month.

[ChadW]

I was in the same spot as you 1 year ago. Now I run all 28's and 50% of my 32's. Getting stacked is the key. For me "squeeze your butt cheeks" was the phrase that got me stacked.

[ForrestGump]

Squeeze your butt cheeks together and attempt to keep them squeezed from the time you come on top of the water. That's something that Matt Brown told me once.

 

Watch Regina here.........

 

 

Even as she rolls out, she's stacked. She drives her core out by flexing her ankles forward which drives her entire core outbound. And when she rises up she is directly over the center of the ski. This is how we should all try and ski like. :)

[ToddL]

Are her butt cheeks squeezed? (JK)

 

@ShaneH reminded me that I was letting my hips/butt fall back, especially as I rose out of my lean out for the gates. All I needed to think about was to rise my hips up over my front foot as I came out of the lean outbound. Then, stay there as I rotated into the turn. Basically, if you think of rising your hips up and over your front foot, your butt won't be sticking out and your stack will be better. Every time I realize that my stack is degrading, this concept of rising my hips up over my front foot seems to be the fix.

 

Look at the video of Regina from 0:21 to 0:24 seconds in. She rises her hips up and over the front foot. It is pretty clear. Then, into 1-ball, it is more subtle from 0:38-0:40. However, into 2-ball (from 0:48-0:51) you can clearly see the rise and up over move again.

[Deke]

@MISkier‌ you're way better than me but this may help. As others have said, you are in a sort of squat. I would even bet that you feel like you are loading your front foot. However, I think if you straighten your back leg a little and put a little more load on it as you come up, it will move your hips forward where you want them.

[fu_man]

I am about where you are at so take this or leave it. It seems like your head and shoulders are forward. You seem to run the pass hunched over. I'm wondering if you focus on getting your shoulders back (right shoulder going to 1,3,5, left shoulder going to 2.4.6) if that would help get into a better position. Matt Rini suggested this to me and it has helped me make progress.

[ToddL]

"shoulders back (right shoulder going to 1,3,5, left shoulder going to 2.4.6) "

 

Hmmm... Not sure what was intended by "back" in this context. However, you don't want to point your sternum to the shore when headed to 1-ball. You want your sternum pointed more towards the boat/boats' path (i.e. open to the boat, pointed down course) as you start the lean and approach the wakes. For a LFF skier, this is more difficult during our lean towards the 1/3/5 side. It is as if your hips are pointed across course (toward shore) so that your ski is on an early path across, but your shoulders are pointed down course (open). Therefore, your body (waist) is somewhat twisted.

(The above pics are from the video showing Regina's lean out prior to the gate and her lean from 1 to 2. Since she is RFF, these are her "offside" leans. I flipped the images to show how it would look for a LFF skier.)

Part of getting into this position is to think about keeping your left shoulder back as you head to 1/3/5. By keeping your left shoulder back on this offside wake crossing to 1/3/5, you are less likely to have your shoulders ahead of your hips. $0.02, but keep the change.

 

[mwetskier]

@ToddL -this video with cale burdick explains it nicely -

[ToddL]

@mwetskier - thanks for the video! That does clear it up.

 

I think a skier who already has good "stack" can to this closed position with less risk and better results. A skier whos stack is not solid can end up with shoulders in front of the feet and hips trailing and at risk of either crushing off the second wake or going out the front in extreme situations.

 

Clearly the on-side lean allows for the hips to be slightly open and therefore the shoulders can be more open to the boat. Clearly the off-side lean restricts the hips to a more closed position and therefore the shoulders cannot be as open to the boat.

 

I just know that any skier who finishes their off-side turn (or starts their off-side lean) with the shoulders more closed is more likely to have the hips trailing. If the skier finishes the turn with the hips rotating and pointing cross course and the shoulders slightly behind in that rotation (slightly more open, trailing the hips), will be more stacked.

[MISkier]

@mwetskier, I totally agree with what Cale is saying here and thought the exact same thing without really knowing the mechanics behind it. Thanks.

[MISkier]

I skied tonight and applied a couple of the tips here. The results were very surprising. It helped that we had glass all evening and I could concentrate on some technique.

 

@ShaneH, I did the glute clench for some lower speed and longer line passes first. It felt very, very different. Not bad, just different. I immediately knew I was making some sort of significant change. The very first thing I noticed, other than my improved body position, was a quantum increase in speed with the same or less effort. It began right at the pullout and the ski seemed to ride different - with less drag, almost slippery. I had to learn how to temper it a bit, as I was over-running the boat before the gates. In the course, I was much faster from buoy to buoy and was not pulled forward - except for a couple of one ball turns where I had to jam my turn in for the gate a bit later when I was first learning how to control the glide of the new speed at pullout. I applied it to my regular passes and my first attempt at 28 off got me around 5 ball without any of the gymnastics you saw in my video sample. I probably could have even gotten 6, but I was not comfortable pushing it yet. It was beginning to feel easier with more control. My position through the wakes was so much improved that they were not jarring at all and I felt much less flatness in the ski. Much better edge. Early in the set, when I did find myself losing the hip position, I was able to restore it by thinking about and applying the glute clench. I also paid attention the full alignment as I exited the course. I also really noticed the stack right after I planed out and I felt much taller into the glide as a natural outcome. So, I was able to automatically incorporate the tall glide that @gregy was mentioning without doing much extra to make it happen. I didn't have to focus much on straightening my back leg - it just happened.

 

@AB, I added in some counter rotation in my second set (at some longer line lengths) and finally gave 28 off another try. Other than a slight hiccup at one ball, I completely smoked the 28 off pass. Wide, early, backsiding every ball. The ski was finishing beautifully with good angle and cross course acceleration even before the hookups, which had no slack. Body position was very comfortable and I felt stacked and away right though the wakes. I probably could have two-handed ball 6. I had a lot of time to spare at the end. The boat driver had a big grin at the end and said, "that was unbelievably smooth". He said he barely had to touch the wheel. I wish I had video. Best 28 off ever and probably the best pass I've ever run at any line length. It even seemed easier than 22 off. I hear some people say they prefer 28 off to 22 off and say it is easier - this is the first time I understood why they say that.

 

I still don't like my turn in for the gate. When I tried to work on that, I didn't have very good success. Perhaps changing too many variables in a short span of time.

 

If it wouldn't be uncomfortably misinterpreted, I would have a T shirt made with the words "Glute Clench" printed on it. That kind of sounds like a band name....probably punk rock.

 

I can't wait to solidify the hips and counter-rotation and work in some of the other tips.

 

I've got a lot to do to make this automatic and consistent, but...holy crap!

[Skoot1123]

@miskier - doesn't it feel great to put things in practice and it work out so well! Good job and keep up the work!!

[MISkier]

@Skoot1123, it really was a dramatic improvement. I wish I could have learned this 35 years ago.

 

More importantly, it was a ton of fun to totally crush that pass. The ride itself was a blast.

[A_B]

@MISkier‌ glad you are back on track. I thought you were knocking down 28 last time you came down to ski with us. It goes to show you need constant reinforcement and it takes a whole lot to erase muscle memory. Old habits die hard! Finish this season running it until your sick of it, and when you bobble, you recover the pass with the new form vs old. Of course you are welcome to drop down and ski any time. We have lots of closet ski coaches down here that are not bashful about letting you know what you are doing wrong.

 

Regarding your gate, the issue last time was not enough width and sitting back on the turn in. Focus on getting wide, standing tall over the front foot, and keep the handle low on right hip, then rotate your left hip around and to the handle. Sometimes initially dropping the right hip down helps gain angle if you can keep your arms straight and lean away with chest up, not bent at the waist.

 

 

 

[MISkier]

@AB, even when I ran 28 back then and thought it went well (which it was pretty good), it was nothing like the pass I just ran tonight. A whole other level. If I can make this work for me on a continued basis, it is the cornerstone of my next progression.

 

I'll work on that turn in. Width and/or gate timing is no longer my problem. I'm up enough on the boat and I'm turning in earlier for the gate. I didn't ride the tail tonight, but it still didn't feel like I dropped the hip or rotated around on that turn in....at least not like I think I should.

 

And, you are right about reinforcement. I see things in videos from 20+ years ago that I was doing right but have forgotten or allowed to be suppressed by other bad habits.

 

Thanks a bunch. The value of the video coaching here cannot be underestimated.

[gregy]

@MIskier glade it helped. I thought a better gate shot would really set you up for a better pass.

[MISkier]

Update:

 

In the last two days, I have run 6 out of 9 attempts at 28 off. There were 3 in practice (back-to-back-to-back) and 3 in today's tournament. Unfortunately, only one of the completed 28 off tournament passes counted for a score. The other two tournament complete 28 off passes were the free ride back to the dock after missing the first, scored attempt at 28 off.

 

5 of the 6 completed 28 off passes were basically smoked. The 6th pass (the one valid tournament score) was a bit of a scramble - nerves.

 

The glute clench and standing tall in the glide is working. My hips are much more up where they need to be and I feel my body position through the wakes is helping me slice through effortlessly to get good cast out - I am really early to 2 and 4 a lot of the time. The counter rotation is working and is required. I am not running the pass well without the counter. The two tournament passes I missed today were due to skiing tentatively with closed body position and little to no counter rotation on 2 and 4.

 

The one practice pass I missed was due to a bad/late gate, which brings me to the one item I adjusted recently. I had changed my 28 off pull out timing back in the beginning of this season to be when the nose of the boat reached the 55s and my turn in remained when the nose of the boat was about 4 feet before the gates. This was causing my turn in to be rushed and my gates were just not comfortable all season. So, I adjusted my pull out back to where it was before - when the nose of the boat is a couple feet before the 55s. What a difference! I know some will say the pull out should remain the same while the turn in becomes earlier. I was not getting good one-ball results that way. Moving the pull out slightly earlier in tandem with the earlier turn in worked much better. I believe I am doing less tail turning on the turn in and fixing that last piece (to be showing the top of the ski to the boat, drop the hip, and actually turning on the edge for the turn in) when I move the pull out slightly earlier. May not work for all, but I needed it.

 

Thanks to all that helped with my video coaching. I'm back on track and getting much closer to the consistency that I want with more passes being wide, early, and smooth with good body position and no slack.

[MISkier]

OK. Here we are one year later. My 28 off completion percentage is 80%+ and I'm getting around 4 ball at 32 off occasionally.

 

Here is a split screen comparison of the original video from August 2014 (bottom) and this season (top)

 

 

 

One thing I noticed is that I am so much earlier at every buoy and faster cross course this year. I think my body position is better, but not what it needs to be to nail 32 off. I am using a different ski (my backup 9500), as my primary ski is undergoing some refurbishing. The 9500 is working for me and, really, any issues are me.

 

If the split video is too busy, here is just the August 2015 video:

 

 

I don't like my hookup after 1, 3, and 5. I believe this is now the roadblock at 32 off, as I spend a little time recovering and really don't get as good as stack as I should for my onside pull. Not sure what to fix here next.

 

Comments are appreciated, including reminders like "you aren't doing x like I told you last year".

[Chef23]

@MISkier great improvement over the previous video. A couple of thoughts although I am not as good at coaching from video as many on the site. First you need more width on your gate to run 32. You don't get wide enough to begin with and you drift in before you start the turn in. More width will set you up earlier for 1 ball and make the whole pass easier.

 

The second is your stack needs to continue to improve particularly your offside. I think your exit from your onside turn is due to the fact that you aren't in good enough position on your offside pull. You are a little narrow and aiming at the buoy instead of carrying more speed and width cross course. This makes the ski head down course in the pre turn instead of setting up and starting the turn. If you can focus on standing taller in your offside lean and closing the gap between your hands and body I think you will generate more speed, be earlier into 1, 3, 5 and the ski will finish much better.

[gregy]

@MISkier Congrats on the improvement! Everything Chef says but I think one thing that will help is that going into 1,3, 5 you get the handle in with inside elbow bent and in. But as you come of the second wake going to 2,4,6 side you need to get that inside elbow tucked in and handle closer. I think that will help get you wider.

[gregy]

This what I've been working on this summer. Handle low and close. Skiing from the top up.

 

[mwetskier]

just to be clear brooks wilson in that video contrasts skiing ' from the top down ' vs skiing ' from the bottom up '. he recommends the latter but i dont think he ever mentions the idea of skiing ' from the top up ' . in fact i dont even know how that could be done.

[MISkier]

I did notice what the video said. Must have just been a typo by gregy.

 

Maybe skiing from the top up means using your brain....or invoking some divine intervention from above. Either of those couldn't hurt.

[andjules]

Lots of—probably too much—advice in this thread, but I want to re-emphasize what @Deke said. A couple of years ago, struggling for consistency at -28 myself, I saw @Horton mentioning straightening the back leg through the wakes. I didn't think much of it at first, but watching my own video in slow motion, I saw how much my knees were absorbing at the wakes... much like your initial video, @MISkier. I personally believe that 'crush' gives up a ton of energy. When I concentrated on a straighter, stiffer back leg through the wakes (not the turn!), I found myself wider and earlier and calmer.

[DaveD]

@andjules, I find that easier said than done. When I try to do that, my front leg locks and I end up riding the tail of the ski.

[mwetskier]

@MISkier -maybe if you wear a hat?

[gregy]

Yes Bottom up, typo. Too me is about using hips to initiate turns. Which is another way of saying moving your COM in the direction you want to travel. When I concentrate on this my should stay level and upper body counter rotates without thinking. There's a article by Seth Stisher in the lastest Water Skier magazine where he talks about doing this. Basically if you have pressure on front foot then add some hip movement to give a cross coarse component.

[6balls]

I agree better but stack not there yet hips still trailing. Try this in addition to the glutes: as pull out for your gates think about where your handle is located. Put it more rearward and on your lateral right hip low with arms straight. When you turn in and accept load from the boat think about where your handle is located. Try instead of having it at your anterior pelvis put it more rearward on your left lateral hip through the gates...round one ball, let the ski finish, arms straight and think about handle more rearward on your right lateral hip. Look at the stills of Regina above and where that handle goes.

Buddy of mine called me out on that earlier in the year and it really helped.

[gregy]

I almost don't like watching videos of myself. My hips and stack always seem to be back compared to what I feel.

[MISkier]

I am on my way to the lake now to work on the latest tips. I won't be shooting any video this time, just concentrating on the handle, hip, and gate issues.

[drewski32]

What I see is that you are using your upper body to steer the ski instead of your COM

[MISkier]

Here is the latest checkpoint since this thread began. The video is a side-by-side of this September (left) and the original video from 2014 (right). My consistency at 28 off is vastly improved and I am able to continue to work on things and refine, rather than just scramble to make the pass. The key changes I made this year were:

 

 

1. Standing tall in the glide before the gate. The water is breaking just where I want it to and my legs are just about the way I want. I've changed my pullout a bit as well to help facilitate a transition into that glide.

2. Turn in for the gate. I have been working on really making a progressive angle and waiting to take load from the boat. Trying to avoid turning the ski on the tail and overloading immediately. This is keeping more of the ski on edge - at least I think so.

3. Concentrated on form in my pull from my offside through the gate or from offside turns to onside. Working on stack here and making sure the ski does not get behind me.

4. Through the wake, I am focusing on maintaining connection to the handle while the transition and edge change occurs.

5. Into the turns, I am thinking about reaching upward a bit more and ensuring the ski is out in front and leading me into the turn. This is so that I don't reach down, get pulled forward, etc. I am also trying to avoid turning the ski with my upper body and let my hips dominate.

6. What I have done in #3, #4, and #5 has reduced how much I have been crushing into the ski at one ball or other onside turns. That keeps me in better position to go to two ball and beyond.

7. I have been able to apply the load after each ball a little more optimally so that I am getting more from the boat at the right time and when I am in a better position.

 

I still don't like how I am finishing my offside and still need more form/stack improvement on the offside pull. Much more work to do, but the difference in how I finished at the gates tells me I am probably headed in the right direction.

 

Comments and additional observations are most appreciated.

 

[gregy]

Looking much smoother. Love the gate, however maybe a little more up on the boat (I try to get at least even with the back of the boat at 28off, near the pole for 32off). Body position much improved. Your finish of the turns look good I think too, the problem is that your giving up too much of the upper body to the boat which causing you to ski narrow and get a little slack out of the turn. I see some outside elbow bend on 135 but on the offside your outside arm is straight which gives a separation with the handle causing to to ski narrow. I try to keep my elbows tight against my ribs through the transition. Any luck at 32off. I keep having good starts but haven't been able to get past 4 ball. Ran it back to back at 32mph but 34mph is still eluding me.

 

Check out the GUT Gate discussion, specifically like the Reverse-C stuff about how the transition is a result of building angle into the CL. There's some really good information there. Stuff I've been working on myself and I've gain some more insight on how to accomplish it. Look for some Adam Caldwell videos for LFF perspective.

[MISkier]

Thanks @gregy. Good point on the elbows. That is a constant battle and you're not the only one to notice. As for the gate, just about everything I heard in the GUT gate video narration is something I am trying to do. Same with the reverse C. When I don't get it right, I load the ski too long and I'm skiing right at the ball.

 

Regarding your question, I've run 32 off a few times each year over the last 3 years - usually in September and October. In fact, I ran it on the same day as the left side video - in my second set without the camera on. I see 4 ball quite frequently and that is my 34 mph tournament PB.

 

Here is 32 off. It was the very next pass after that 28. I lose angle and body position out of 4 ball and have to abort the turn at 5 ball. I am certain I would have either had to fling myself around that ball or I would have nailed it hard.

 

Comments and analysis on this also welcome.

 

 

 

[gregy]

That looks good. Nice rhythm. I like to get more up on the boat. Rich here on the BOS had a suggestion I've tried and like - Go about 20 feet in front of the Gates, Turn early at one ball, try to stay early, usually by 3 or 4 ball I'm going around balls again. Seems like it will help learning new rope lengths.

[gregy]

Found this video of Nate. Check out how far up on the boat he is.