Real scores and false scores and BS scores

[Horton]

This last Saturday, I ran 1 @ 39 at a tournament in Newberry. I am pretty darn happy with this score. It is one ball short of my all time tournament PB. The bad news is that 1 ½ @ 39 is what went onto the score book. I clobbered two ball and 2 of the 3 judges really thought I went around it. I know I hit the ski ball with the bottom of my ski.

 

In theory this score will impact my national ranking. It certainly will for the next few weeks. I puts me in a strange position. I want credit for exactly my accomplishments. No more and no less. I would be deeply embarrassed if this score was one of the 3 to make up my average at the end of the 2015 season.

 

I asked the judges to change the score. Everyone was willing to take my word for it but we were not sure what was allowable under the rules and appropriate.

 

Sort of along the same lines => There was a video posted a while back of a skier running some semi short line passes. The skier’s skills did not really look like he should be able to navigate the passes he ran in the video. A closer examination of the video shows that the boat was going at 1 ½ mph less than the skier claimed (17.8 ish times).

 

My first reaction was to assume it was an ego thing and the skier is fill of S**T. After a little consideration I decided to this may not be the case. Not everyone practices with a ZO boat, measured ropes, straight/centered boat paths and a RC certified course. I mean if this is 34 to him and he loves what he is doing I should encourage him. We all struggle to get better in one way or another.

 

I have irritated a lot of Ballers by saying practice scores do not mean as much as tournament scores. I think any score that makes you happy is valid but if you are going to judge yourself against your fellow Ballers certified scores are king.

 

I need to take this chance to confess that I claimed a new practice PB a few months ago. A few weeks later I checked my rope & it was 4 or 5 inches long (thank you US GEAR). So now my practice PB is 3 @ 39 (NOT a real 3 @ 39 ½). Yes is sucks. Next time someone asks my PB, it is legitimately 2 @ 39 1/2. Painfully making my own point.

[LeonL]

This subject came up yesterday in a discussion with my ski partner. I know of no rulebook item allowing a skier to request /demand an adjustment downward to his/her score. There should be. @klindy may be able to shed some light on this. Now as for you specifically, John, I personally would not be so concerned over 1/2 a buoy unless it was in a placement tourney. I know you/most would say I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth after such a self righteous position I took in a recent thread. I also know that at that level 1/2 a buoy may alter rankings by several positions. (Just looked it up---M4 it means 4 spots) The ones that really bother me are missing a buoy and continuing on as if it were made.

Regardless of mfg, I always measure my practice rope the same as our tournament ropes and adjust as necessary. They're never right. Oh, they may within tolerance, but I try to make them as exact as I can.

[ski6jones]

I thought this during the recent threads on this topic but doesn't this point to a problem with the ability of judges to record a correct score more than anything else? Not faulting judges because I are one and have experienced the problem on both sides of the rope. If the current scoring system regularly results in inaccurate scores then shouldn't we fix that instead? Perhaps easier said than done, but it's the scoring that's broken in these cases.

 

 

[Horton]

@ski6jones‌ I do not think it is a common that the skier wants to lower his/her own score and can not.

[ski6jones]

Agreed @Horton, but if the score was accurate you wouldn't need to. Just seems like a rule change to adjust your score downward is fixing the symptom and not the problem. I'n all for recording the correct score.

[LeonL]

@ski6jones‌, it's not the scoring system that has a problem. The program will allow you to make changes, it's just that the "system" is just not set up to change a judges ruling. Not matter if it's downward at the skier's request. I know of no rule that would prevent this, however tradition and "common sense" seems to overrule this. Again, I hope to hear from a nationally known, highly respected judge on this.

[MrJones]

Horton. There are some totally bogus class C scores out there. Much more than a 1/2 buoy. If it was at a placement tournament (ie State, Regional, National) I totally agree with you doing the right thing and calling yourself out. In this case I would move on. As a judge I am going to give the skier the benefit of the doubt. Just run farther down 39 this fall and it'll be moot point.

[Texas6]

This is the best endorsement I've seen to date on your certified score vs practice score debate.

[ski6jones]

@LeonL, I'm referring to judges actually providing a correct score for entry. As Horton said the reported score was incorrect. " I clobbered two ball and 2 of the 3 judges really thought I went around it". My point is if the score were judged/reported correctly in the first place the need/desire to adjust a score would be eliminated. Not sure how to improve judging accuracy but that is the cause of the erroneous score.

[disland]

The term Class C gets a bad rap. The rules are the same except for a few cameras. Why do people think they can cheat in a class C and not a class E

[Bruce_Butterfield]

The judges "should" know the rule book.

 

6.08 Changes in scoring forms

"...... A judge may not change his scoring form more than 30 minutes after the results of the event are posted......."

 

This means that a judge MAY change his score at anytime up to that point. If the judge isn't sure on a close call or can't see, the benefit of the doubt generally goes to the skier. If the skier tells the judge he went clean inside a buoy, the judge has the authority to change his score. Note that he doesn't have to, only that he can.

 

I wouldn't sweat a 1.5 vs. 1.0 score. There a lot more variables and it's only a list. The only score that counts is tournament day.

[klindy]

The rules allow for a couple types of corrections to be made. Nothing in the rules says the correction must be upward. Likewise, nothing prevents a skier from requesting the change. In fact, I would bet that ALL the upward revisions are started by a skier and/or his representative.

 

Rule 6.08 says - "Any changes in scoring forms must be approved by the Chief Judge once the results of that event have been posted. A judge may not change his scoring form more than 30 minutes after the results of the event are posted. The results of a day's last event on each lake may be posted at the beginning of the next day (except for the final day). In this manner, the Chief Judge can comply with the rules while all those concerned have a fair opportunity to verify their results."

 

Rule 7.06B has more specific information - "B. Correcting scoring errors -

1. A correction of an error in the computation of scores will not be considered a protest.

2. Such correction will be made upon the approval of the Chief Judge and the Chief Scorer if requested within two hours after the results of the event have been posted according to 7.06.A.2 above and the judge’s scoring forms made available for inspection.

3. Correction of scores on the Ranking List only:

a. Such changes will be made with the approval of the Chief Scorer and Chief Judge provided the error change was initiated within seven days of inclusion in the Ranking List.

b. This seven day limitation will only apply to changes in the score value. Corrections of errors in competitor identity, age division, or tournament format will be made whenever identified and verified by the Regional Seeding Representative and Executive Vice President.

c. Such a change will not affect the official tournament results or placements."

 

So corrections can be made within two hours of the scores being posted. After that the score is official. Paragraph 3 also allows for the score on the ranking list to be changed with the approval of the CJ and CS. There's a 7 days time limit.

 

So, it seems the score can be corrected on the ranking list anytime this week with the approval of the CJ and CS.

[Horton]

I hear stories about BS class C events but the class C events around here are run by the book. Boat path video is always on at Great Lakes.

[disland]

@horton same here at Princeton Lakes

[Horton]

When I hear about events with alleged snake driving I am embarrassed for the sport.

[LeonL]

We don't use boat path video at class c around here, but we adhere strictly to the rules as applies to class c. In other words except for technical items we're the same as L and tolerate no deviation from said rules. Our ropes are right, we obviously use ZO, utilize only the best drivers on site, if possible only use reg or sr boat judges. So, with regard to bogus class c scores, it doesn't happen here! I do see judging errors made, as all of you do everywhere, even "L" and "R", but to lump that into bogus, I wouldn't.

[MrJones]

I agree with Leon. John's issue is not one of a "bogus" score, but possibly of a judging error. Two totally different things.

[Horton]

@MrJones‌ trying to stoke conversation on both subjects. The judges for my bad score are not at fault.

[Chef23]

I am a judge and driver at Class C events in the east. I have never witnessed anyone doing anything but calling or driving to the best of their abilities. Is the judging and driving at the same level as a record event with video everywhere probably not but it isn't due to the lack of effort or integrity by the judges and drivers involved.

 

I totally get why the judges gave Horton 1.5. In general as a judge unless I am 100% certain that the buoy was missed I would give the call to the skier.

 

The threads about this topic have brought me to change my views on things. In general I have been of the ski the pass and let the judges make the calls and live by the results. In the future I am going to treat things the way I have always treated competitive golf and make the call that I know in my heart is correct.

[9400]

The softer, smaller and safer the turn buoy, the harder it is to judge the score correctly.

[Razorskier1]

I had just the opposite happen back in 2007. I was at a tournament and clearly ran 2 at 39 (my tournament best as well). Because it was clear that I went around the ball, I never checked with the scorer. The following Tuesday I found out they scored it as 1!!! I called and talked to all the judges and they all said they saw 2, so I have no idea where the mistake occurred. Then, because I didn't protest the score within the appropriate window, I had to work with the chief judge and chief scorer for two weeks to get the score recorded. I figured that could be as good as it gets, and I really wanted the score to be correct. Point being, I have been more diligent about checking with the scorer ever since.

[Horton]

Haa a a @Razorskier1‌ I had 2 judges call 5 @38 4 1/2 last year. CLEARLY 5 balls. Judges not watching. Husband and wife.

[MattP]

@Horton 5@38 what a terrible score

[Than_Bogan]

Great skiing either way!! It feels like a million years ago that I was running a lot of -38s late last season. But I think I'm getting dialed back in -- still hoping to get a few with the time that remains.

[Horton]

Off topic but I ran 38 three out of 5 rounds

[klindy]

Again....the rules allow for changes. Up or down. Ranking list scores have 7 days to be corrected.

[Horton]

@klindy‌ ok please explain how. The judges were willing to reset my score but at least one judge said she called what she saw and she saw 1.5. I was just not sure how to handle it.

 

I intended to just ski better. This score should not be a ranking issue long term.

[klindy]

I would suggest that as long as the skier is wanting to lower the score the only approval needed is from the CJ and CS (per rule 7.06B) and is requested within 2 hours of the scores being posted. If you think you should have gotten a higher score then (hopefully obviously) the event judges have to agree. Another scenario may be if you opted up and scoring missed it you have 2 hours to alert scoring and they'll follow up etc.

 

So, you'd go to the CJ or CS and say - I know I was scored 1-1/2 but there's no way I got around 2 and the score should be 1. They may look at you like your from Mars but you certain should be able to do that.

 

Now the question is whether you're right. As an example, look at Regina's 3-1/2 buoy pending record from last summer. It was very, very close. From the backside (one judge was there) it clearly looked like 3-1/2. From the other side it looked like she did hit the buoy but it's debatable whether she significantly displaced it. From the boat the call could have gone either way. Point is you may have hit the ball pretty hard but the ski crossed outside the centerline of the buoy. Maybe 2 of the 3 judges were right? If you skied inside the buoy then that may be different.

 

Judges usually do their best to make the right call. Sometimes mistakes are made. I'd guess that most "errors" are never even realized much less corrected. It's pretty rare when I've seen class c tournament scores actually posted or checked by the skier.

[Razorskier1]

@Horton -- first of all -- nice skiing! 3/5 rounds is awesome! Second, I am glad that I fought to get that corrected -- that 2007 score still stands as my best tournament score! Maybe if I skied more than one or two tournaments a year that would change . . .

[Roger]

@Horton, I know what you think you felt, but I can't believe with the speed and dynamics of 39 1/2 off, that you could really know for sure you didn't slip to the outside of the buoy before your front ankle arrived... The judges (if they're paying attention) are generally in a better position to "judge" than you are at very short line. Which judge gave you 1?

[webbdawg99]

If people are running "bogus" Class C tournaments....they need to be called out! There's no reason or excuse that would ever make it acceptable!

[Horton]

I forget which judge scored what. I would be shocked if it was legit but maybe

[MillerTime38]

@Horton a call is a call. Why have officials if we are going to have the skiers over ride their calls. I would have to agree with @Klindy, they may have the better angle and made the correct call.

Like I said in a different post, skiers ski, judges judge. Besides, you should not be staring at the buoy.

 

As far as weaving, does not bother me. I prefer my driving to be straight, but if someone else is getting the weave because they need a score for nationals, I have no problem with that. I know I know, someone else may get bumped from going to nationals. Just part of it

[Roger]

I asked because I believe the boat judge has the best view. I'd be more inclined to question my score if it was the boat judge who called 1. If it was a tower judge, particularly the one on the side you were turning, I'd be comfortable the other two judges could see better than I could (feel).

[Horton]

@MillerTime38‌ I have a visceral objection to weaving boats. It is literally cheating.

 

If you get the weave to get into nationals you are likely displacing a skier that skied with in the rules and performs better than you.

[Than_Bogan]

Weaving is in fact outright cheating. Why not just enter a made up score directly into the computer?

[Horton]

@MillerTime38‌

I do not know you and this is not personal but the more I think about your above post the angrier I get. This sport has exact rules for rope lengths, boat speed, boat path, course dimensions and everything else. That means that within the power of the officials the conditions at every tournament are the same. We all know and accept that there are water differences and weather and such but besides that it is supposed to be the same for all.

Astounded

 

[MillerTime38]

Ok, so what if the person that was getting the "weave" did not qualify for Nationals and did not displace another skier, what if the driver was just trying to help the skier get through a couple passes to keep him coming back to tournaments to help "Grow the Sport"?

 

I am not condoning the weave, but maybe it is not as evil as everyone is making it out to be.

[Horton]

I am less offended at lower levels but still not crazy about it.

 

If you want class F rules ski class F or INT. Nothing wrong with that but is a different mind set.

[webbdawg99]

@Horton, if you "hear about events with alleged snake driving", I'd suggest doing more than being embarrassed for the sport. The cheaters are the ones that need to be embarrassed....and eradicated.

[Horton]

@webbdawg99‌ tolerance for cheating is not my strong suit

[webbdawg99]

If you know something is happening and you don't do anything about it, you're not only being tolerant....but accepting.

[Chef23]

I don't think the weave helps beginners. They have plenty of rope and the extra foot isn't going to make a difference. I could see it helping someone running -38 or -39 but I don't think I can drive well enough to help them.

[Horton]

@webbdawg99‌ I think you misunderstand. If I see it first hand I will scream bloody F***ING murder.

 

Rumor and innuendo I can not do anything about.

[MillerTime38]

I guess that I just don't worry about what is happening everywhere else, I try to only worry about myself and control what I can control. Besides, when Nationals comes around it all levels itself out

 

@Chef23 the weave can help at all line lengths

[Horton]

The difference between 38 & 39 1/2 is roughly 18 inches. If the boat is my way by 9 inches at one ball the difference could be huge.

[Than_Bogan]

Completely irrelevant to your point (which obviously I completely agree with), but 0.5m is actually very close to 20".

[gsm_peter]

In regards to rope length.

I think I have seen that the rope can be +/- 15 cm for long rope lengths and +/- 7,5 cm for short lengths.

So plus 7,5 cm is approx 3 Inches (US) so if the Handle is just a bit short you might still be with in limits and hence the result counts.

 

 

 

BTW since the sport is defined in metrics rope lengths in feet are only rounded values for simplicity and the manufactures compensate to real values.

 

The used rope is to long if one measure used rope length in feet.

For example a

Neutral color is 10,75 meter and rounded up to be 35,5 feet long.

35,5 feet is equal to 10,82 meter. That is 7 cm or 2,77 Inch (US) to long.

 

When measure the take off part one has to know what that is taken off from!

A 60 feet since that is not equal to 18,25 meter. 60 feet is 4 cm/1,5 Inch (US) to long.

 

For example if one take off 39,5 feet from a 23 meter rope the reminder is not 10,75. It is 11,04 meter (close to one feet to long)

But if one take it of a 75 feet rope / 22,86 meter (start is to short) and take of 39,5 feet the reminder is 10,82 Meters and this is only 7 cm /approx 3 Inch (US) to long.

 

When measure rope length 1 Feet = 0,3048 meter

 

 

 

 

 

[LeonL]

@MillerTime38‌ , we had our disagreements on a previous thread, same subject, and like @Horton's last word on the post..........Astounded!! But nothing personal.

Semi different subject.....I was an appointed judge at a tournament in another state. It was Class C, so there is no requirement for judge towers. The wording of the rule is "judges shall be stationed with the best possible view of the course." The judges were "stationed" sitting at ground level between the 3 and 4 on the same side of the course ( sitting side beside) Well I wasn't the chief, just appointed, so I let it go. I won't be accepting appointment to that site again. No bogus stuff intended, just impossible to call gates and some buoys.

[Horton]

@LeonL‌ towers are better but we judge from shore at some tournaments. You just have to pay attention. No, it is not good above class C but of all the things you can let slide that is one that does not freak me out.

 

Freaking try to be within the rules and I will cut anyone a lot of slack. It is willfully ignoring the rules or the spirit of the rules that makes me want to climb a water tower with a deer rifle.