Real scores and false scores and BS scores

[LeonL]

I just can't bring myself to have my name on the record for a tournament that the "shore" judges can't make a reasonable call on either gate. As we know there are among us those who would take advantage of the situation. All said person would have to do is work as judge in that scenario and then say "well I know I won't have to make the gates as I know they can't be called".

[Horton]

@LeonL‌ I respect that. Nice to meet someone less tolerate than myself (that is a compliment)

[Horton]

@gsm_peter‌ stop making me feel dumb!

[LeonL]

@Horton , less tolerant than you sounded OK until I went back and saw the post mentioning the deer rifle. You're scaring me!! LOL

[Horton]

@LeonL‌ not worry. I would shoot show skiers and barefooters first

[Bulldog]

@Horton - I thought trick skiers would be first on your list...or maybe PWC riders.

[Horton]

Wakeboarders

[lakeo]

This is certainly going to be off topic but here goes. How do people feel about wind assisted performances? In certain other sports you can not set a record under certain God given weather conditions. Does water skiing need a wind rule? Just asking no opinion.

[IheartJump]

when i was in the midwest C's we always had judges on opposing sides so each judge had a good look at one set of gates + the boat judge obviously. down in FL i've been to C's where both judges sit at 3-4 ball side by side and share a walkie talkie. usually one person calls in scores for both tower judges to avoid passing it / feedback.

 

personally i'd like to see separate walkie talkies for the 3 judges so the scores are blind. i.e. the third judge doesn't know if his vote is going to cut someone's gates or not.

 

also i'm not a huge fan of this for class C's

Our ropes are right, we obviously use ZO, utilize only the best drivers on site, if possible only use reg or sr boat judges.

 

i made an attempt to get into driving and judging at tournaments but was pretty much shunned as an assistant. i was an assistant driver and judge in all 3 events but could never get any discount for helping out, and had to beg just to get credit for judging... it just wasn't worth it to maintain and i've even let USAWS membership lapse since then. tournaments are too expensive and exclusive

[crashman]

Speaking as a tournament virgin- after reading these threads recently I'm amazed regarding this aspect of the tournament scene. You can get to a pretty high level tennis tournament and call your own shots, or golf tournament and count your own strokes.

[LeonL]

@IheartJump‌, I'm sorry to hear that you were shunned, and this at a "C"? Most TD's and CJ's will gladly use assistants on towers and if necessary in the boat. Driving is a bit different, we want to use the best available, BUT rating is not what we go by. We have an assistant who just hasn't sought to move up for 10 years or so now, and he's GOOD! I've never seen a difficulty with a new person getting judging credit at a "C". Again with driving if you really want to drive, sometimes you have to prove yourself by seeking out the opportunity to drive on a weekday with/for a driver who has some clout in the area. I know it's tough, but I prevailed and made senior.

@lakeo, who's to say that a head or tail is most beneficial to a given skier on a given pass?

[Horton]

@lakeo‌ acts of God are allowed. Every headwind pass is followed by a tailwind pass.

[skihard]

Cheating is cheating. If putting 4 on your golf score card makes you feel better then so be it! But I damn straight can tell you it doesn't make you a better golfer!

The only one you're truly cheating in the end is yourself!

[lakeo]

Horton, yes I know acts of god are currently allowed, what I am wondering are people concerned if someones say; runs 43 off because they were aided by a significant headwind. Certain running events do not allow for world records to be set when the setting of that record is a direct result of weather conditions.

[Horton]

@lakeo‌ I don't think it is an issue

[ntx]

@lakeo running a 43 head wind means that a 41 or a 39 with a opt up (or 43 off the dock) had to happen with a tail. Not a easy feat in any condtion.

[Horton]

I am not sure a light headwind is even an advantage at 43. I an pretty sure a strong head wind is not.

[kfennell]

-41 skiiers that I know say that they would rather have a light tail at that pass.

[MattP]

@MillerTime38‌

As far as weaving, does not bother me. I prefer my driving to be straight, but if someone else is getting the weave because they need a score for nationals, I have no problem with that. I know I know, someone else may get bumped from going to nationals. Just part of it

 

You have got to be kidding me! If some one is getting a weave for a score to make nationals that is flat out cheating. Someone will more than likely get bumped out. That is not "part of it". It is cheating.

 

Ok, so what if the person that was getting the "weave" did not qualify for Nationals and did not displace another skier, what if the driver was just trying to help the skier get through a couple passes to keep him coming back to tournaments to help "Grow the Sport"?

 

I am not condoning the weave, but maybe it is not as evil as everyone is making it out to be.

The "IF" game should be no where near this conversation. Giving a weave to grow the sport in a tournament is completely the wrong way about doing it. You just taught that skier that cheating is ok and that they are not as good as they actually are. Invite that skier over to ski with you swerve them, take video, let them ski for free, encourage them to get involved, take video at tournaments and give the constructive criticism on their skiing. That will keep brining the skier back.

 

I guess that I just don't worry about what is happening everywhere else, I try to only worry about myself and control what I can control. Besides, when Nationals comes around it all levels itself out

 

When you are judging slalom do you regularly give buoys that are not skied around? If you had a driving rating would you be swerving for skiers? If you are doing this for skiers you might as well write your name down next to Dr. Jim. Cheating is cheating no matter how you look at it. We have a structure of driving and judging ratings to eliminate this from happening. I hope those around you are not turning a blind eye to this culture. You should be worried about it. What if you were the skier that got bumped out? How would you feel? It would not level it self out at Nationals because you would not be there.

[gjohnson]

And last I checked, the boat is going 16.08 no matter the wind speed.

[lakeo]

Years ago re-rides for bad boat times were common place but with the advent of new technologies they have been all but eliminated. One thing is certain water skiing like all other sports will continue to evolve. How long is it before you will be able to adjust your ski between passes? (remember the HO power stick) and rules will have to keep up with that evolution.

[LeonL]

@MattP, you da man. Said what I wanted to say.

[eleeski]

Allegations are one thing - and may not be a reflection of reality. I have never seen overt cheating - I would certainly report it. Mistakes are part of any sport - but rarely do they go in the favor of a skier. And are a long way from cheating.

 

I do agree that a skier who is certain that a wrong call has been made in their favor should be able to adjust the score honestly. I'm not sure exactly how to do this. Ideas?

 

Eric

[Drago]

@lakeo head winds are not an advantage at short line (-39 on)

[LeonL]

@Razorskier1‌, back to your tournament experience of being shorted a buoy due to a scoring entry error. For many years, after most sites had abandoned the use of judges scoring sheets and "going paperless", we continued to use them. For exactly what happened to you. The scorer would have these sheets and be able to compare and double check what was entered. Also the skiers protest could be confirmed. I eventually had to give up, as I was getting sheets turned back in that were blank. Frustrated, but just couldn't quit using many of the judges we needed.

[9400]

There are tolerances established for driving path. What if there was a driver that you skied behind regularly in tournaments that you often skied 1 or 2 buoys better than any other driver. Let's say that driver pulled 5 national records behind him or her (so the path has been reviewed numerous times and approved path is very tight). If you knew that driver was so good that they could make the boat mini-weave 2" in the skiers favor at each buoy (effectively a 4" whip from buoy to buoy) would you have a problem with that driver? Let's say that for the sake of this argument the driver would never admit to anyone what he/she was doing.

Spare me the pattern driving is illegal stuff, I already know that.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Eric, it's already in the rules that the judges may change their call up to 30 minutes after the results are posted. The honest skier still has to convince the judges of the correct call and the judges can agree or not. Giving the skier the ability to adjust his own score without the judges agreement is a bad idea.

[MillerTime38]

Everyone must have missed the part in my statement where I said "I do not condone weaving"

 

@MattP "The "IF" game should be no where near this conversation" then you say "What if you were the skier that got bumped out?". I guess only you can bring the "if" into the conversation. If I were a driver, no I would not weave, once again going back to what I said about not condoning the weave. Cheating is part of every sport, unfortunately, PED's, Steroids, movable courses, etc it is just reality. All I am saying is that why waste the time worrying about it and blasting people on the internet about it? Take that time and go ski. I am not sure how me saying that it does not bother me when people weave turned into accusations that I give people buoys while judging and weave myself. Actually, I am a very strict judge on the tower and when driving I would consider myself a "skier friendly" driver that does not weave. No I have never found myself "on the bubble" but if I did I would practice more :)

 

 

[Deke]

I don't think it would be a problem in adjusting down or forfeiting the pass. Don't you have to sign your scorecard in golf? Could do something like that.

[klindy]

@MillerTime38‌ if you saw someone grab a handful of candy bars in a convenience store would you tell the clerk? Or is that just the cost of doing business? What if they grabbed your gas pump and filled their tank on your credit card? Or pulled a weapon on the clerk and took the cash? All ok because you didn't do it??

 

It's all stealing and it's all wrong. Perhaps each situation is handled differently. But a blind eye is usually the wrong answer.

[MillerTime38]

Since I do not care if people swerve means that I give people buoys while judging, swerve myself, condone stealing and would watch an armed robbery and not care. This is hilarious. Keep them coming

[klindy]

@MillerTime38 I didnt say you don't care. In fact, I know you do. My point is when is it "OK" (swerving) vs. not OK (something else)? I contend, as others have said, that cheating is cheating is cheating and just because you don't do it doesn't make it ok.

[Horton]

@9400‌ I think that may require a whole other thread. Then a skier like @skidawg‌ or even a little dog like me skis the boat is going to move right to left. I think the very best drivers flow with the skiers.I really don't think this is an issue but perhaps I am naive. as long as the pylon movement is within tight tolerance I think I'm satisfied.

 

@Jody_Seal‌ @jdarwin what do you say?

@skimom‌

[jdarwin]

I can honestly say I've "helped" skiers from time to time in some backyard tournaments (Horton benefited from my generosity on one occasion) - most often out the gates. It has an element of self preservation added also. But, I don't condone intentionally weaving to assist the skier. And, if you try to weave at 39/41, you are most likely making it MORE difficult on the skier.

[Horton]

And @jdarwin if I recall I was unhappy with the assistance. Still love you like a long lost step brother.

[eleeski]

A skier will pull the boat around. It is just as bad (maybe worse) for a driver to make inputs that rip the rope out of the skier's hands seeking an impeccable path as it is to allow the boat to weave out of tolerance. Tolerances are needed to allow for reasonable real world challenges.

 

The boat judge must call for a reride when the boat path goes awry. I'll also call for a reride if the driver is noticeably yanking the skier around in an effort to correct a path. No cheating, just humans. Certainly not an ethical crisis in the sport that I see.

 

Bruce, I do seek a skier's input on close calls and have changed my judging accordingly. But that is more a real time decision process. Horton maybe should have talked to the judges right away. But distractions or work assignments or poor communication to the skier can easily eat the time window. As a judge, outside that time window voids my memory. Late score modification gets problematic without excellent video.

 

Eric

[LeonL]

Since we've moved on slightly to include boat path, how often have any of you judges and drivers (with "L" or "R" experience and thus subject to IWWF rules) have seen the marks or posts on the windshield 20 cm to either side of centerline. This is a "shall be" in rule 14.15. So, the boat/pylon is to stay within that boundary. I never see that.

[Roger]

I've never seen marks on the windshield and I doubt you could do that accurately anyway. The Splasheye end course system does have the lines. Here is a link to a splasheye run, not sure how to embed the player here

 

Fixed your link -MattP

[Ghibli]

From a skier's mental perspective, probably best to keep driving out of your head, but to think it doesn't affect performance is to live in a world in which i am not familiar. If you struggle with 22, 39, and even 41, there are many talented "ski school", hopefully non-tournament, drivers that will get you through the pass. If you are prone to live in a thick bubble, i can guide you to these magic makers. I have seen and felt their skills. I remember the 41 specifically. The gentleman's practice pb stands at 3 if you ask him, but he got all six that pass. It is not only a weave. The truly skilled will adjust based on what the line is doing. Not to this extreme, but a version of it can be done within tolerance. And it's obvious on boat path review and the powers that be are aware.

[Chad_Scott]

I think that end course should be required and submitted for all tournaments no matter what class. The tolerance should be used in the event you get into trouble or out of rhythm with the skier. We as drivers should not be trying to drive just inside of tolerance and aiming for the tolerance at each buoy. Most skiers would prefer a straight boat path with a tight line. We could make all class C's more legit if we required end course video at every tournament. Cause lets face it when the camera is not on the path at Class C tournaments is much looser than when the camera is on. Class C tournament scores are often much higher on average than those obtained on record tournaments where end course video is used. Record all classes and it will clean it up.

[Horton]

@Chad_Scott‌ 100% agree except that it is one freaking more thing required to put on a tournament.

[skidawg]

If end course video is required, then why have different classes of tournaments. break it down to a world record class tournament and another class of tournament. It would simplify everything (except for more end course video)!

[Chef23]

@Chad_Scott in a perfect world having end course video everywhere would be great but I know of at least 1 site we ski tournaments in that it would be almost impossible and it would stink to lose that site.

 

I have never seen end course video of me driving and I would like to to get more feedback and improve as a driver. That said it is expensive to add another video element to a site and in the Northeast there are few enough sites as it is.

[ntx]

@Chad_Scott I disagree about the scores. What I have observed, is that people that ski a low number of rounds in ELR usually have lower scores in that type of tournament. It might be related to nerves and how a skier deals with that in a higher class event. (reg & nats single rd) Skiers that ski a equal number of rounds in Class C as class ELR, you see that the scores are about the same in both class.

 

The class C end course video will only add to the cost and increase entry fees. Let's keep this as simple as we can for the host clubs. No need for end course video in Class C.

[Horton]

@klindy‌ data?

[klindy]

@Horton maybe....gotta take of the day job first.

[MrJones]

I agree with Chad... and John on the last points. I believe end course would not only tighten up driving tolerance, but could provide good feedback to drivers who aspire to be at Chad's level. If I were a driver I would love to get feedback from the skiers, and then look at the video to see how I can improve myself.

 

On the other hand. John is right. Any more added hassle and cost is a negative. As a family of five I don't want to do anything that will drive up entry costs more than what they are.

 

Solution... It's coming. Auto pilot is on its way. I don't know when, but like slow times it won't be an issue at some point in the future.

[Roger]

I agree with @Chad_Scott‌ also. I also agree that for many sites, it would be an added expense they might not already have. For most sites though, they already do ELR tournaments and probably own end course equipment.

 

I take the end course video of every one of our tournaments and constantly strive to improve. I compare my driving with the other top drivers here (drivers like Becky Lathrop and John Shealy) to see how I compare. Toward that end, I also pull as many different skiers as possible in practice and get their feedback on how it feels for them. It's one thing to drive straight, another to drive straight and still feel good to the skier...

 

The only drawback to the Splash Eye system I posted above is that the tolerance lines do not record so I have to put my own lines up for pylon deviation.

[Horton]

 

I was thinking about how to make dropcam work for end course just the other day. Not exactly the right tech and requires wifi at both ends of Lake but it would be crazy cool.

 

You could watch on any smartphone

[MillerTime38]

We used to run a camera on boat path in practice because people thought I was too picky and they wanted to prove they were driving straight, they were driving straight, one foot right of centerline as I expected