Hard shell releasable

[SBFL]

Can anyone help shed some light on the difference between the FM revo toe clamp, the FM revo toe block and a reflex?

[BraceMaker]

Reflex currently offers a few options. They use an updated silvretta style release, and the toe of the boot is held to the plate by a metal horseshoe loop. Their boot is developed off an Italian inline skate shell.

 

FM boots use a shell from USD classic Throne aggressive online skates. The FM system can have either a toe plate which is a plastic tongue that slips into a receiver on the plate or a toe clamp which is a ratchet buckle to hold the boot down.

 

Functionally they are similar, FM is a bit more secure to the plate than reflex and by using a soleplate the boot is pretty secure with out a lot of release pressure. The toeclamp is a way to really lock the boot in for flips.

[OKSkier]

Go Reflex. Just got front Reflex. Awesome quality and great customer support.

[Chuck_Dickey]

Reflex front with R-Style rear has been really good for me.

[SBFL]

so reflex is the way to go then...

[BlueSki]

If you are left foot forward and size 12, I have a set for sale.

[SBFL]

right...

[BraceMaker]

What are you going to use it for?

 

Reflex has the new release - of course this is by necessity as stock of the old 404 silvrettas is dry. Don't know how many FM has bought/stocked.

 

You could also debate getting an OB4 release plate and whatever boot you want.

 

You could do a powershell.

 

Lots of variety.

[SBFL]

i would only use it for slalom

i was thinking FM because i could buy them in shop opposed to online, and reflex because it seems most people have them,

[MattP]

@SBFL‌ I would take a look at the OB4 System like @BraceMaker‌ suggested. I have found it to be much safer than the Reflex system.

[Than_Bogan]

For safety, either an OB4 release plate or a single plate pin release with a Gatormod. In my opinion these two options are non trivially ahead in ability to save your ankles or Achilles. I've been a rubber guy through and through, but seeing the safety advance of the OB4 I just had to make the change.

[SBFL]

@Than_Bogan‌ i am also on a rubber binding and the main reason i want to change is because i hurt my ankle in an OTF early in the season, how did u find the change to the hard shell?

[Than_Bogan]

@SBFL Firstly, I'd call it a "soft shell" -- it's quite different from a "traditional" hard-plastic boot.

 

As far as the feel of the boot, the OB4 "soft shell" (the Rollerblade P80 boot) is actually similar to rubber. I had issues getting set up properly (please read my Idiots Guide to avoid being as dumb as I was), but the transition to the soft shell was relatively easy with the one very important realization (from somebody here!) that the tightness of the top buckle is critical and should be fairly loose. [That, too, is discussed in my guide.]

 

Years ago I tried going to a true hard shell and spent an entire season on them but never got comfortable. So I'm a good example of someone who was addicted to rubber but got the OB4s to work.

 

Yet another reason to use my guide: The "chart" that ships with the system recommends too tight of a release tension. I believe that will be corrected soon and perhaps already has been. But an important advantage of OB4s is that the release tension can be fairly loose: I can pop mine out standing on the platform but can also run deep -38 with no pre-releasing. And meanwhile the boot itself can be however tight you like it.

 

I really feel like a salesman for the system. While I accept that someday people will get hurt with this system (this sport ain't 100% safe -- hope that's not news to anyone!), I truly feel it's going to give some people extra seasons where they avoid a season-ending injury.

 

Expensive as hell, but ultimately worth it in my opinion.

[SBFL]

@Than_Bogan‌ have you herd anything (good or bad) about their hard shell option,

 

http://www.ob4systems.com/shop/ob4-hardshell-boot

 

im only asking cause u have pretty much sold me the system, but im not really liking the idea of laces and velcro on a boot, i find they wear out very quickly.

[lakeaustinskier]

I'm not nearly the quality of skier as @ Than_Bogan, however, at Nationals I spent some time examining the OB4 system and came away thoroughly impressed with not only the engineering concept but the quality of construction and the "feel" of the product. As a skier who has never been seriously hurt (but has lots of friends that have broken ankles and other things) I really like how the OB4 potentially reduces the number of variables that I have to worry about. Things like how old the Velcro is, how tight the bungee cords are, how worn the rubber bindings are etc. Sure there's still some variables - just not as many. Here in Texas it's still warm and I don't want to mess with my skiing but at the close of the season I'll probably pull the trigger and try them out.

[BlueSki]

@SBFL‌, I have one of the hard shell boots and it is very well made. The buckles are from the same supplier Reflex uses and the plastic shell is stout, sturdier than a Reflex. The only thing that is missing vs. a Reflex would be the ankle strap on the white cuff boot. The liner is actually a full version of the low liner Reflex uses in their r-style rear. I have also used soft shell, and the hard shell is stronger. I believe OB4 will do well with them.

[Than_Bogan]

I personally never considered the hard shell option due to my problems with the hyper-responsiveness of Fogmans. They look great though. And I definitely think they will be more durable than the soft shells.

 

Also, you can really put anything onto the OB4 plates with sufficient effort.

[BraceMaker]

@than_bogan - you can probably hybridize the hardshell to your liking. Just seeing it in pictures - I'd first use a belt sander and remove that ridge around the shell, Then I'd drill a hole in front and just below the ankle pivot and cut a slot up to the instep by the first buckle, be fun to play around with.

 

I'm fairly convinced that the component of the binding that is useful is the heel Cup/Ankle Cuff, and that the rest is mainly there to keep the boot on your foot.

[SBFL]

iv done a bit of research and i like everything i have found about the OB4 but to get it to my house it would cost 800$ at my ability its hard to justify that much money...

[BraceMaker]

You mention in store - are you in Canada? Particularly western canada?

 

If so, FM is a really solid choice, when you import them to the US they get pricey, I have a revo toe block on my trickski - which works out pretty well, it uses the older silvretta 404, but I've never had issues with it. On my slalom I use a split plate dual boot FM66, which is the older version of their current double boot quattro - at the time I think it was only ~700 for the dual boot system - its well over 1200 now. But it has a lot of the functionality that is presented by the OB4 system, separate boot plates, releases if either ankle tries to lift. Will release on blow out and non-perfect/rotary crashes.

 

There is some talk that by using a fixed tongue and groove at the toe that the boot cannot lift if the toe is being lifted up. But the tongue of the plastic could be bevelled and would do that if you wanted.

 

I would atleast give FM a call if you're in that part of the world.

[giddyup]

i know shushwap ski in calgary carrys all the reflex stuff

[SBFL]

@BraceMaker‌ I could take a day trip to the FM factory

[Than_Bogan]

(Sorry if you've already seen me say this, but) $800 seems like a silly amount of money until you ask yourself "How much is a season worth?"

 

At my age, and arguably at any age, investing money toward being able to ski is even more important than investing money toward skiing more buoys.

 

That said, you may be able to rig up a Gatormod at a much lower price, and with a single rigid plate a case can be made that that is even safer than OB4. (It depends on which particular crash types you are most concerned about.) I believe @gator1 is essentially giving them away?

[SBFL]

@Than_Bogan‌ what is / where can I find a gatormode?

[Than_Bogan]

A Gatormod is essentially a string connecting your front knee to the rear of the rear plate. @gator1 just posted a series of videos that includes the special Powershell version, but the middle of the three videos is the one that explains the basic Gatormod.

 

http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/11687/v3-0-gatormod-videos

 

View them (in order) to understand the motivation and the problem that it solves. In a pure crushing case, it is the only system that has even a chance to save your Achilles. OB4 can save you in a lot of mostly-crushing cases, but in a pure straight-into-the-ski compression, only something that actually creates a force somewhere else can save you. I personally believe that "perfect storm" is relatively more rare than twisting cases, so I lean toward OB4 as the safest option. But a VERY strong case can be made for the Gatormod w/ Single Rigid Plate as the safest. Depends on your skiing style and your guesses about most likely and most dangerous crash types.

[SBFL]

i ski with a kicker

 

[SBFL]

could it still work?

 

[BraceMaker]

@SBFL - nope.

 

Ignore the gator mod stuff then.

 

So far that development is relegated to releasing the rear end of a double boot single plate system.

 

My flow sheet of binding requirements:

 

Single boot/RTP - must release torsionally, must release in OTF. Can have relatively low release settings so long as no pre-releases.

 

Double Hardshell - Must only release torsionally if it releases both boots, must release in OTF, should permit front heel to rise independently of rear toe) If prerelease must release both.

 

Single hardshell rear rubber boot - must not release torsionally, must release in OTF, must not prerelease - must release at slightly higher resistance than rear boot or at worst equal resistance, but certainly not easier.

 

This flow sheet is based on all the slalom crash related fractures I have ever witnessed or been a part of, and each segment has its challenges. I think the OB4 single front is probably the most promising front hardshell/RTP combo on the market. I have reservations as to the fact that if you prereleased one of the boots from the system you could be in a world of hurt, and would like to see some sort of interconnecting link between the front and rear bindings which dropped tension on the system if one came off.

 

Lots of opinions. Would be interesting to check out Jager's lair, I know he does car stuff/engineering of other forms.

[mmosley899]

@BraceMaker‌ @SBFL‌ if one boot of the OB4 system releases, it is because of a force sufficient to cause release, that same force is applied to the other boot also causing release. If there is no force acting on the second boot, then there can be no injury. I have never had only one boot release in a fall.

 

As for crushing OTF falls, the OB4 does release, based on first hand experience. It takes an extremely high force to tear your Achilles, and the OB4 will release in every direction at a lesser force.

[SBFL]

@mmosley899‌ its not that i dont like the OB4 its just that its alot of money for some one my age