The “Reverse C”

[A_B]

Wonder if @matthewbrown‌ would care to comment. I think he routinely gets the ski out in front and knees sucked up in a chair after the wakes - when he is cruising passes. For sure you can't just do a lazy lean and pull this off, but if you get good angle and acceleration before the wakes, this is a byproduct and the best way to ride out the acceleration you built up and get maximum width. A boat goes faster on less wetted surface, as does a ski. You will see them all stand back up and then get the front of the ski in the water to turn. routinely, not scrambling. Stick a fork in me, I'm done.

[Ed_Johnson]

@A_B.....YOU ARE CORRECT !!!!

 

Take the fork out.

 

 

[ozski]

@ A_B Think I'm reading the same page as you are on this one. Going back to read this thread over again, its a good subject.

[Horton]

@A_B‌

"A boat goes faster on less wetted surface, as does a ski."

 

When this happens the boat is lifted out of the water by the prop or some aero. The boat is literally light on the water.

 

I guess at edge change as there is a fraction of a second where the ski would be light in the water because you unweighted it. Sucking your feet up at this point would not be a high drag event.

 

Otherwise the more ski that is in the water the lower the drag. It is really more about how flat the ski is in the water. The flatter that attitude of the ski the less drag. If you want to carry a lot of speed in and out of the ball you need to be as far forward as you can manage.

 

When a skiers weight is on the tail it is like wake board boat. The front may be out of the water but the back is deep and pushing a long of water.

 

Back in like the 80 and 90s we all thought that we were slowing down a ski by getting on the front on the way out to the ball. Something about the dynamics was different. Super slow skis or ZO or I do not know what.

[A_B]

Yea I don't know why I threw boat dynamics into the discussion, it's complicated enough. But, a flat ski brings the wing angle into play, I think. Or else, why use one?

 

http://www.waterskimag.com/how-to/2002/06/06/cut-me-some-slack/

 

Terry Winter: We’ve all heard it time and time again – hold on long with two hands. However, have you ever stopped to think that you could be hanging on long with two hands, but your hands might not be anywhere close to your body? And, as you can imagine, if you have two hands on the handle but the handle is out away from you, the boat is probably pulling you to your inside edge. The optimal position off the second wake requires level shoulders, knees coming up towards your body and a ski that is moving out in front of you. Staying compressed and tight like this off the second wake will pretty much guarantee that your back arm is in close to you. What you don’t want to do, however, is attempt to keep the handle close by pulling in on your arms. Focus instead on moving your hips and midsection towards it. Optimizing this position is a sure way to keep the line tight at the finish of every turn.

[Horton]

@A_B‌ hmmmmm ok. TW said that 12 years ago. That adds a lot to your argument but have you considered that skiing ideas and theories have evolved massively in 12 years?

[A_B]

Good point, I'm old so it still seems relevant to me. However, I think the date of the article may not be that old.

[Horton]

@A_B I could be wrong about the date. It shows @Chris Rossi‌ skiing on a Goode and the URL is hwww.waterskimag.com/how-to/2002/06/06/cut-me-some-slack/ I am making an assumtion that it was published 06/2002.

[A_B]

@horton, I think you are right about the date. The web page I looked at had a 2014 date on it, but the article is probably an older one.

 

The record at 2002 stood at 1@9.75M, and today it is? Evolutionary? Sure ZO may have caused some timing and eliminated pulling the boat down, but I can't see radical changes in fundamental technique, which I think this is a fundamental advanced technique to run shorter lines. Call me stubborn, but I would need to watch a lot of video showing it getting done without it, but many different styles of skiers, as a lot of different style skiers seems to be pulling their knees up and getting the ski out in front of them and behind the handle when running shorter lines.

 

[Horton]

After some calls to (Rat Bastard) Ballers who I respect but who are not chiming in here, I think I have to temper my stance about knees only coming up a lot only when the skier is under duress. I still stand behind my claim that this is something that skiers do not try to do but that happens more and more as the loads increase.

 

Since we are both failing at educating each other let’s start over.

 

Are you telling me a skier needs to try to push the ski forward and pull knees up and forward somewhere during the edge change? When should the skier climb back up and forward over the ski? How long do I stay in this chair position? Why are we doing this?

 

[ForrestGump]

I agree with 90% of what you posted, JTH. Except the part about the RC being when a skier is on the edge of control. I think that it's more plausible that it happens with skiers who take a lot of load into centerline and then release it. Someone like Mapple or Badal are good examples. Not all high end skiers do it. Guys who you don't see it as pronounced from are skiers like Chad Scott, Trent, Rossi, etc. But they're also one who have a much more static and coupled lower/upper body.

 

Regardless, I still maintain it's not something you do or try to achieve. But something that happens.

[A_B]

When you are loaded behind the boat, you have to get unloaded at some point, or can we all agree that if you stay in a "pulling" position, you will get pulled over by the boat and narrow?

The path of the ski is in front of the handle when you are loading into the wakes, all I am suggesting is that the ski path needs to go behind the handle path (when viewed from directly above, like my amateur drawing), and it is at this time that the skier HAS to do something, it is not a result of leaning properly into the wakes. It is a move that is made easier when you unweight the ski by pulling the knees up. If you stayed over the top of the ski, it would be much harder to force the ski out on a wider path. TO ME, I had to make a deliberate move with my ankles and hips to accomplish. If you subscribe to this, then work on it in practice and see if it helps, if not, great. Skiing is an art/science, and there are many different ways to skin the cat. I personally think this is something to aspire to when skiing. You don't, no big deal. I have never been very flexible, so getting my lower body separated from the top was a challenge.

[Horton]

Great @ShaneH agrees with. Now I have to reconsider my position

[Ed_Johnson]

'@Horton...Absolutely correct in your statement, " I still stand behind my claim that this is something that skiers do not try to do but that happens more and more as the loads increase.'

 

My point has been it is not load against the boat, straight down the rope, that causes this...It is Load with forward weight shift, forward COM, that causes this....You have to be forward of the line and forward of the ski at the LOAD...Done properly, you CAN NOT STOP it from happening..The shorter the line, the greater the instantaneous load, and in this case, @Horton is absolutely correct.

 

@A_B is correct in the fact that if you don't get that forward COM at hook-up, your only alternative, is to simulate it by bringing the knees up and swinging the ski through...It is a band aid, however, it may be the second best choice.

 

 

[A_B]

There are a lot of pros skiing with second best technique then.... I just had to..

[Ed_Johnson]

@A_B.....Your not the only one...I try, and try, and try, all the time to do this right...I can only do it right about 30% of the time on my onside pull...Thats the only reason I know it works, because if I do manage to get that forward COM at hookup, you can't stop it, and I have actually felt like my knees were going to come up and hit my chin...My offside is another story..I can clearly see in my videos I am not forward enough at hook-up, and am aligned with the rope, not forward of it...This leaves the only option to force it to happen.

 

I remember seeing videos of Asher getting really forward at hook-up on his offside and the ski just exploding through the edge change..I got a chance about 3 years a go, at a Tounament here in Orlando, to ask him about that...I told him whenever I try to get in the position he does, I feel like I am going to OTF big time..His answer was, "Yes, but I know the ski will come through and catch me."...... I only wish I could have his confidence.

 

 

[Sethski]

My two cents...and although I have followed this thread from my cell phone, i think I may have missed several comments in my thoughts below, but this is the basic idea of what I feel is misconstrued, what needs to happen, what actually does happen, etc.

 

SEMANTICS:

I think throughout a large part of this thread the vocabulary each of us uses can be the issue (or at least art of it). For example, I have only used the term "Reverse C" as an indication of the alignment of my body through the turn in order to keep my hips sitting over the inside edge of the ski without dumping my shoulders. However, that's my way, but it's not necessarily the only way or the right way. Here, @AB uses that terminology, I get what he is saying, but I use that term differently and have a slightly different approach to it, but some of the theme of it is the same as my personal approach as well as a piece of the various approaches I use with students.

 

CONFUSION IN WATCHING VARIOUS SKIERS/PROS:

Everyone has a different twist on it, however I believe the main premise (as set forth in AB's drawing of the crossing archs of the ski, the handle, and the shoulders. Some do it with added power, some pull long, some transition earlier, some dip the handle, some counter extremely, some stomp on the front foot, some crouch, some slide the hips to the inside edge thorugh the turn, and some stand tall and aligned, but the goal is the same...cast the ski out to a path that is outside the handle arc in order to get max width out of the ski without having to as high on the boat and place the ski on edge for a more automatic turn.

 

WHAT I THINK YOU SHOULD DO AND WHAT I TRY TO DO:

I need to preface this by pointing out that (as you all know) I am not the best slalom skier in the world or even close with my own application of technique. That having been said, here goes...

 

Stacked: I try to approach the wakes as stacked as possible so that my body is aligned behind the rope. This creates efficient transfer of pressure from the rope and upper body down to the ski which in turn creates speed as the ski (by design) attempts to alleviate that pressure.

 

Purposely MIS-Align in order to transition effectively: I try to "mis-align" my self behind the rope as I pass through the center of the wakes in order to "squirt" (hate that word, but it makes sense to me) the ski out to the apex of the turn. That may need further explanation. My thought is that the entire body is under pressure at its greatest when you reach the center of the wakes (because you are most directly behind the force that is pulling you). At that point, if your feet move slightly ahead of the "stack," this misalignment causes the ski and lower body to accelerate ahead of the rest of the body which (provided you maintain your upper body position relative to the boat and rope) will cause the ski to advance out onto a path that is increasingly wider than that of the handle as it swings up beside the boat. This is where that ski may ride flat for a moment but will very slowly and consistently roll out onto the turning edge, but without having immediate inside edge pressure as the centrifugal force will still maintain outbound energy out to the apex of the turn. I think it is important to point out that this movement probably does create the "Reverse C" as I have seen it in pictures of many skiers, but I am not sure that is our main goal. I also want to point out that (and this may be where I differ slightly from what a few of you think and in fact from what I used to think) this is only a slight movement. The pressure from the boat is what creates the majority of that "cast out". Our job is just to slide the feet or lower body ahead so the pressure does actually "squirt" the ski out. If we drive the ski ahead too much we will lose our footing and then inadvertently give up our position relative to the boat and start to ski down course into a loose line.

 

This is they way I look at it and I believe the way I see quite a few people do it. It may not be the only effective way, but I'd say if you look at the physics of it, this is one of the most efficient ways to accomplish a great transition.

 

Lastly, I just want to address the timing of it all. In this thread or a similar I seem to recall reading that the transition happens later as the line shortens as evidenced by watching great skiers at shorter lines. Rather than suggest that I know what any one else is doing in their approach, I would like to suggest two things as food for thought. First (and this was pointed out by someone else...maybe @Horton, the skier is traveling a great deal faster at shorter lines and therefore it may appear to all be accomplished slightly after the wakes, secondly, the shorter the line gets the more mistakes everyone makes...pros included.

 

Again, just my two cents...and I may have left a few things out because somehow I got roped into going shopping on Black Friday, so I gotta go!

 

Happy Thanksgiving.

[A_B]

@Horton, squirting is probably where you and I disconnected.

[thager]

Ewwwww!!!!!

[Horton]

@Sethski‌ interesting stuff. Do you think that most skiers achieve this action by simply relaxing their legs a little and letting nature take it's course? What you wrote above makes perfect sense to me but I have never heard it explained like this before. Do you think it is really important that a skier actually try to do this move?

 

[skier2788]

@A_B‌ @Drago‌ @Sethski‌ I have a question. As someone the has a lot of weight on the tail of my ski. I always focus on trying to be more centered over my ski in the preturn and turn. If you are making an effort to push the ski put in front of you do you also make a move to get back on top of it? What is that move? I see me pushing the ski out in front and standing on the back of it all the way through the turn. I'm probly missing something. Great thread and very interesting.

[Horton]

@skier2788‌ hopefully @Sethski will chime back in.

 

I would say that if you are sure your stack is NOT what it should be than this concept is something you should shelve at the moment. That is to say if your bindings are already ahead of your hips at the center line pushing it farther forward does not sound constructive to me.

 

ok @A_B‌ disagree...

[A_B]

@horton, I agree with you on this one. The way I view it is that you are stacked and have tip pressure right behind the boat and this move releases the load on the front of the ski in order to get it out on a wider path. If you are already back on the tail, this move isn't needed or you probably need to work on a better stack first.

 

I will say that the 2 rookies I am working with at my lake are working on this move when we shorten the rope to 28 off and they work on shortline technique. They both say that when they do this, the passes seem really easy.

[Drago]

@skier2788‌ personally I don't advance the ski in front of me. It happens sometimes. I try to ride the handle and stand up tall going into the ball.

I know it sound counterintuitive , but 90% of the time, when I see shortline skiers riding the tail, I have them try moving their bindings back or take some fin length out (the theory being their ski is riding too deep so they "lean back" to avoid going out the front)

[skier2788]

@A_B‌ I read a different post of yours and think I was thinking of the wrong part of the course for this move. Thinking about it at centerline makes sense to me now.

@Drago I do normally run my bindings a bit back from stock.

I do ski into 38 off at 36 mph so this isn't a technique that is beyond me. After rereading it makes more sense now at the centerline than in the preturn like I was thinking.

 

[A_B]

In the preturn you would be pulled up into a new stack over the ski. IMO. The C and ski out in front happens for a split second when the "pull" phase is complete. The more the ski is behind the handle, the wider the path into the pre turn.

 

There is no absolute way to ski. nothing ventured nothing gained.

[skier2788]

@A_B thanks that helps clear it up for me. Most of the pictures I see are of people past the second white water. I was wondering how you get front foot pressure in the preturn and turn. If it is done at center for a split second and then reestablish the stack before the preturn it makes more sense.

[ozski]

@skier2788 I If you travel smoothly and efficiently enough through the transition it should give you more time to optimize your weight distribution coming into the ball. If you tend to tail ride a little this has to be to your advantage.

[skier2788]

@ozski‌ I agree. That's why I was wanting the clarification. Going to have to try it next time I am on the water.

[A_B]

Opening 32 off pass for TW. Pretty much on cruise control.

 

 

[Sethski]

Hey guys...some random thoughts based on things I just read:

 

I agree that you can't just decide you need to transition early if don't have a position that generates effective acceleration into the wakes

Someone mentioned this in this thread or another, but I agree that if you are already on the back of the ski coming into the wakes (like Horton's 26mph video--no offense @horton) , the transition is not the key at this point...you most likely will have to pull a little long and reap the consequences at the next turn

"Edge Change" IS NOT SYNONOMOUS with "Transition". I agree that in video's of high end skiers, you don't see Andy or most great skiers "Changing Edges" at the center of the wake. The "edge change" is a result of advancing the ski out onto a path that is outside of the handle path and the ski rolls over onto the turning edge later. I don't think we should use the terms interchangeably, and personally I actually only use the term "edge change" in coaching when i am referring to what the transition has historically and errantly been called.

Don't always thinking watching a pro or watching a guy who is better than you means that you are watching proper technique. You may be missing the one thing (or ten things for that matter) that actually make them effective because you are focused on one thing that they don't do in an efficient and effective manner. It happens in any walk of life, for example a bad golf swing where the club face gets aligned well at the point of impact but in the most unorthodox manner.

Although I may not use the same drills, @lpskier is right about practicing by using drills. We are all trying to get better in a sport where what we all do most of the time in practice is equivalent to "scrimmaging" in any other sport. Drills, DRills, DRIlls, DRILls, DRILLs, DRILLS!!!!!

@horton asked a couple of things in the "Reverse C" thread, "Do you think that most skiers achieve this action by simply relaxing their legs a little and letting nature take it's course? YES, I BELIEVE THAT HAPPENS AND I BELIVE OTHERS DO IT BY ACTIVELY SLIDING THE FEET, ADVANCING THE HIPS, ADDING TRAILING ARM PRESSURE, ETC. What you wrote above makes perfect sense to me but I have never heard it explained like this before. Do you think it is really important that a skier actually try to do this move? I BELIEVE AT A CERTAIN POINT, SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE TO PROACTIVELY CREATE A TRANSITION IN MOST CASES. IF YOU ARE PERFECTLY STACKED AND YOU KEEP YOUR BODY ALIGNED BEHIND THE ROPE, WHEN YOU CROSS THE CENTERLINE, IN A PERFECT WORLD, THE IMBALANCE OR "MISALIGNMENT" WILL CAUSE THE SKI TO ADVANCE OUTSIDE OF THE HANDLE ARC...BUT I FIND THAT IT IS VERY RARELY THAT SIMPLE

Last thing...@a_b said he lost me when I used the word "squirt" and I hate that word, so how about this: When approaching the wakes in a stacked position, any of the ideas mentioned in caps above are merely a "catalyst" to cause the pressure from the boat to collapse our structure in a beneficial way. When the stack becomes misaligned with the force acting on it, the base gets blown out in the direction it is advanced...this creates the cast out. In other words, you use the force (that is perceived to be acting against you) to your advantage by merely acting as a catalyst in the situation.

 

Ok, that's about it...except for one more thing: ROLLLLL TIDE ROLLLLLL!

 

Oh, one more thing, when in doubt on a topic, read anything posted from @SkiJay‌ as he is a scientist, student, and athlete!

[The_MS]

I would bet that if you had enough quality photos of most skiers running shorter lines, you would find a few shots of them in this position. Spend a day shooting yourself and I bet you find you do the C. Your vision and how/when skiers react is what gets you to the shortest possible line. At some point in the transition the C has to happen. Its a matter of handle position while in the C. Elbows down and in will get you better angle but elbows further out will lessen the angle.

[bishop8950]

Thanks @Sethski for the contribution. Reading it makes me want to get on a plane to SC to ski with you. I have a question: As you coach the full spectrum of skier abilities, do you find times where you are working on this with mid level skiers or is it “advanced skier appropriate” only? I wont be surprised either way, just curious.

 

I have been really focused for the last few seasons on how I finish my turns and move into the wakes in a way that sets up the right transition. You know, first things first. This year that was working well enough I started to work on the next thing, that transition. So far I have been working on fairly static things in my stance/balance/timing to enable the transition automatically, which at times provides the reverse C. So far I have not been able to find anything active or proactive that I do to advance the ski in the transition. I am thinking its either because A) things happen to damn fast for my slow brain to do anything athletic in that split second B ) I don’t have the prerequisites firmly in place yet or C) I haven’t found the thing that will help me personally (as you said there are a lot of ways to skin this cat). When I watch the best skiers it looks like they are being proactive and I am working on getting there, just haven’t figured it out yet.

 

[SkiJay]

I always knew I liked that @sethski guy! =)

 

Out of curiosity Seth, would you rather the term "edge change" went away, or just that it only be used to describe the precise moment where the ski actually rolls through flat; as opposed to "transition" referring to the whole move from cut to pre-turn?

[SkiJay]

I want to still be on the rope this much at the end of the transition. My new desktop wallpaper for the month:

 

[A_B]

To squirt or not to squirt..... Lots of good discussion around this topic and things to tryout next Spring.

It is apparent that there is no definitive theory, like add fin length if you want more angle out of your offside turn.

Good civil discussion guys!

[Sethski]

@skijay, I personally think it should just go away. I believe the process takes so long that we can't pin it down as a precise moment. Obviously there still is an "edge change", but I think the focus should be on the elements that (coupled together) make this happen, we would all benefit from erasing it from our vocabulary...just an opinion of course.

[Sethski]

@bishop8950‌ I wish you would head over this way and ski with me (when it's warmer) as I would learn a lot just from watching and analyzing how you "get it done" so regularly. As for your question, I feel like it can be used for all levels (with minor adjustments) as long as a skier learns to be balanced and stacked from the buoy to the wakes.