Long Line Or Shortline - Tips to help get you into the first shortening.

[ozski]

A lot of the conversation here is slanted towards the middle and high end skier. How about we post some advice for skiers working towards their first cut of the line. For those guys in the -38 club and higher cast your minds back and think about what tricky pass long line 36 MPH was. What are the common mistakes you see skiers making as they work towards -22

[RazorRoss3]

My best advice for someone trying to get through long line is to stop trying to ski at long line and just shorten it into -15. IMHO -15 is just easier, there is less slack, the boat gives you more swing, and in general it just seems to feel more natural. In my collegiate ski career I've helped a good few people through their first pass and while one of them was definitely better off learning at long line I found that -15 was better for the rest.

 

[Razorskier1]

Biggest mistakes. Loading the line too heavy, skiing at the buoy off the second wake instead of staying outbound. In short, load and handle control.

[ozski]

Any comments on ski choice? Is it a mistake to buy the most expensive toy in the shop when your at this stage? I have a friend on a mid range Radar and he raves about how good it is for long line work.

[Horton]

The single skill set that separates guys who run short rope and guys who do not is stack. Unfortunately it is not actually only ONE skill. Maintaining your stack is impaced by almost every thing you do from the time you pull out for the gates until you round 6 ball.

 

One thing that works for me as a coach is to work on a skiers gate turn in. For right foot forward skiers rotating your shoulders slower or later than your hips (feet) makes it much easier to maintain a stacked position. If you can hold a good start stack on the way to 1 ball you have a chance and more importantly once you achieve the feeling of being stacked it is easier to repeat.

 

If you are left foot forward I have no idea how to help you

[ozski]

On the subject of gates a nice simple piece of advice is to make sure your turning from your glide with the boat, that is at about the same speed as the boat. Rather than dropping back and sinking or the opposite and traveling faster and turning on to slack line.

[Luzz]

@ozski‌ def. worth using a mid-range ski at first. There are a few good ones out there, and they really do make a difference. The biggest one is stability. If you are working towards running 15off (meaning you ski 30-32-34 or 32-34-36 mph), the biggest skill to learn is to generate and control speed. The challenge here is stability, and a mid-rage ski can provide that!

 

What I like to do, especially with skiers at this level, is to bring things back to controlling the line and where their body is. 90% of the times, that's where the problems are, and going out of the course allows the skier to feel the movements more and change them.

[lpskier]

What is "short line?" I never see anyone ski long line anymore, even juniors. If no one skis long line, 18 isn't really "short." Some have said the 12 is the first real "short line" pass," with 16 through 13 being intermediate shortenings.

 

I think that free skiing the next two shorter passes than you can run in the course is the best way to become familiar with the dynamics of the new lengths, and will make the pass you are running seem a lot easier. When you get in the course with the shorter line, the speed, wake and width will all seem familiar.

 

I agree with @Horton about stacking. We didn't call it stacking at the time, but I recall the set, where I was, what I was skiing on and the boat I was behind the moment I learned to hook up with my hips forward. Jim McCormick and Jack Travers had been telling me and telling me to do it, and when it finally happened, it was a "Ah ha!" moment.

[ozski]

The first cut of the line in competition these days is almost always -22 so the red loop is long line for this conversation. Do you remember what advice you were given to help improve your body position - let your arms out? chest up? Hips forward? There must be a hundred other things to help the 45% of readers (based on the poll so far) get into the orange loop ..

[Phil2360]

Sadly it's been 15' off for the past 10 years.

Deep 28' (4 balls) seemed so easy back when skiing was 4 times a week.

22' was usually starting length for several runs.

 

Shared custody of my kids (ski partners) has turned it to a fortnightly to weekly event.

Apart from lack of practice & overskiing easier runs seems to the biggest thing hindering progress these days.

 

Cheers.

 

[jhughes]

Hmph, you could probably build a whole website on the topic of getting started in the course and starting to cut line. ;)

 

As somebody who's just starting to get their 'ish together in the course I think the most important things are to 1) have regular, repeatable, consistent water time, and tons of it and 2)ski purposefully, having a plan on what you want to accomplish every time you're out there. For the majority of the past 10 years since first running the course I did not have either and really struggled in the course. No amount of lessons, coaching, forced movements, or tips is going to open more doors than those two things (though once you have those two things all that stuff helps a ton). Once I had both #1 and #2 I made big strides and I'm hoping for 2015 to be a huge year.

 

[AdamCord]

This

 

[ozski]

Thanks @AdamCord I hoped by starting this thread that we could offer more specific advice to the skiers trying to break into shortline for the first time. Its a nice photo and gives skiers something to aspire to but it does not cover the "how". A lot of what seasoned higher level skiers do is automatic and we have so many threads here to help us with -32 -35 - 38 and beyond.. I wonder how many up and coming skiers don't or won't get involved in discussion because of the intimidation factor.. The survey is now at 50% long line skiers.

 

Here are some questions:-

 

When should I pull out for the gates at 32 / 34 / 36 - same place? How wide?

 

When do I turn in? Am I on the front of the ski or the middle?

 

How far should I pull / lean / stack for?

 

How can I improve my body position alignment?

 

Is it correct to look at the buoy? or in front of it?

 

Where is the best place to look?

 

How long should I hold on with two hands?

 

What is the best practice for handle control at long line?

 

How do know if my ski is setup right?

 

What are the most common mistakes and remedies?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Moggie]

Thanks for starting this thread @ozski. Almost everyone at my club is at the level of starting to shorten. I've been battling 58kph 18m for ages. For me I've started to have some success by forgetting 18m and 16m and I started working to get consistent at 14m 52kph. It’s helped me stay on the handle longer and improved my hook-up after the buoy. It’s also a lot more fun than 18m.

[Swini]

@ozski‌ I work with lots of skiers at your level so your questions are all very good but there is no way to process everything you are asking on your hardest pass. Posture and lean angle are the most common mistakes i see when skiers are trying to break into shoreline, the next speed or the next line length. As the speed increases or the line shortens more leverage is required in order to create the same amount of space as the pass before. Space is created by edge angle of the ski...the more its rolled over the more space you will have. This is where posture comes into play. A stacked posture will allow you to apply or increase edge angle easier. A broken posture will let you pull harder but more then likely at some point the boat will flatten your ski out more (usually right at the wake) and take away all the angle you have generated out of the ball resulting in a poor line and running right at the ball.

 

So i will answer a few of your questions otherwise focus on the above and the rest should take care of itself:

Set up your ski to the factory recommendations.

Try to match the boat's speed as you turn in the gate and don't get too caught up in how wide you are.

 

 

 

[ozski]

Just got out of the boat after watching 2 skiers doing battle with 34 / 36 MPH and lots of rope. They were both pulling way to long, changing edge late (almost on top of the buoy) and dropping the inside shoulder hard in an attempt to crank the turn.

[drewski32]

What helped me break into shortline was slowing the boat down and running shorter line lengths than what I was attempting at max speed (34.2 at the time, I was in boys 2 when I started doing this). When I first tried this I had run -22 a couple of times but I was very inconsistent with that pass, and hopeless at -28. I would slow the boat down to 30mph, and run 22's for a few sets. Then, I would shorten to -28 and run that pass until it becaem second nature. After that, I alternated between running -32 off at 30mph and running -22 and -28 at 32mph. The goal is to learn what lines to ski and what rhythm and technique must be developed at shortline, but with the extra time allowed by slower speed. Of course physics are different at slow speeds, but speeding back up shouldn't be a problem assuming you are confident at your max speed already.

 

The main things to focus on while doing this exercise are stack, and instead of loading the line hard out of the ball, you should learn that you don't have to pull as much harder as you think when you shorten. Work on smoothing out your skiing while still being agile and standing balanced on your ski.

 

Once you let the line back out to -22 and -15 you will find it easy, and hopefully you will find -22 and -28 to be much easier than -15.

[m_pags]

I've been a 15 off free skier for years not because I wanted to shorten the rope (I didn't know any better) but because that was where the wake was smaller behind my 2003 Four Winns. Last January we bought a MC Pro Star 197 with PP and my water ski world changed. Now I'm obsessed with learning how to improve my skiing and shorten the rope. I've spent way to many hours watching Peter Gloerson's how to videos. Now I Video all my runs and my skiing has improved. I'm pretty new to this site but I totally enjoy BOS. I read all the Threads. Most of the real technical stuff goes over my head but I know one day I will have an aha moment. All of the ADVICE is appreciated.

 

I live in MN so its a long time until we get back on the water. So Please keep the advice coming. Thanks

[inland]

I'm a long line skier. I started slalom skiing 4 years ago, bought a boat for the sole reason of learning to ski. We have a small club on our lake, consisting of only 3 of us now, but I still can get out relatively regularly.

 

I'm at -15 and have been successful through 34 MPH. Last season, I ran a few sets with @Sethski and learned some valuable pointers. I had hoped to get down to his place this fall, but no luck so I'll run a few with him this coming spring. Being that I'm a relative beginner, the biggest things I took from him are:

 

Body position on the ski - Ski Tall

Stack

Shifting of the body weight to allow the ski to "squirt" out.

 

I worked on those things all season and my skiing improved. I took a few -22 passes but none of them successful. I welcome the information coming in this thread and would like to tip my hat to @ozski for starting it.

 

 

[AdamCord]

Sorry @ozski I wasn't trying to be an ass when I posted that pic, life dragged me away from my computer. Allow me to explain...

 

When I started skiing for "real" the summer before college my PB was something at 34mph 15off. By the time I graduated college 4 years later my PB was 5@38off 36mph. And no I didn't have a massive growth spurt in there. I think anyone can see improvememnt jumps like that, you just have to be willing to experiment a LOT and take 1 or 2 or 3 steps backward before moving forward. Also watch a ton of videos of pros and get video of yourself. You MUST get video of yourself.

 

I wish the rope started at 28off. Anything longer will just screw you up for later. @drewski32 is spot on that you're better off shortening the rope to 28 and 32 off and just slowing the boat down. The big difference is that at those line lengths you start to swing up next to the boat, and that makes the rhythm completely different. Many people become the master of 22off but because 28 and 32 are soooo different it takes them years to progress (if they ever do). You're better off starting at the short line lengths and slowing the boat down to 30mph, 28mph, whatever you need to run it.

 

As for the pic I posted, I wanted to point out what @Horton mentioned. I don't like the term "stack" because I think it's confusing to try and line all your body parts up with the ski/rope/etc. Instead get your hips as far forward as you can and get your sternum as high off the water as you can, and then while in that position work on moving forward over the ski and getting AGGRESSIVE in your pull behind the boat. A strong position and an aggressive pull will get you much much further than anything else.

[AdamCord]

@ozski as far as your questions:

 

When should I pull out for the gates at 32 / 34 / 36 - same place? How wide? Pull out till you're about as wide as the buoys on 2-4. When you pull out will depend on your stance, your ski, whether the boat is up to speed, wind etc. You will need to experiment to find this.

 

When do I turn in? Am I on the front of the ski or the middle? Your goal is to be able to turn in and start progressively pulling from a wide point, timed so that your max pull happens at the 1st whitewash and you make it through the gates. Like before there's no hard and fast rule, it takes some experimenting. Also you want to be waaaaay up over the ball of your front foot on the pull out and the turn in for the gates. Like way up.

 

How far should I pull / lean / stack for? Refer to my previous post. The best skiers in the world pull for an incredibly short amount of time. The better your stance and pull is the shorter you'll be able to pull.

 

How can I improve my body position alignment? Previous Post

 

Is it correct to look at the buoy? or in front of it? Yes there's nothing wring with looking at the buoy to make sure you're going to get around it. But the moment you know your feet will clear it pick your eyes back up.

 

Where is the best place to look? Tons of ways to skin this cat.

 

How long should I hold on with two hands? Practice keeping two hands on the handle AND keeping the your body close to the handle until you reach the buoy line.

 

What is the best practice for handle control at long line? This goes hand in hand with "stack" or position in the pull. The better your position the easier this is. So work on your position.

 

How do know if my ski is setup right? Put it a stock and don't touch it.

 

What are the most common mistakes and remedies? Biggest mistake I see is people NOT really trying new things. If you're a longline skier and you'd like to run 39 someday, you know you are going to have to make wholesale changes to your technique. Why not start right now? Yes some of those changes won't be good but you'll learn from it and become a better skier. Don't get stuck doing the same thing over and over hoping you magically get better. It doesn't work that way.

[DmaxJC_ski]

I am a 34 mph skier, my PB is running 22 off, I don't get to ski much but with each set I am able to get in, I focus on 1 detail, not so much focusing on always running the pass as getting that 1 detail down, sometimes it takes a 2 or 3 sets to get that, generally when I get it I will also run the pass, I tend to be very critical of myself, but without lots of ski time it's tough to get good. My goal is to get good, consistent and have all the technicalities worked out before going shorter. I kind of go by the same theory as people in my same work profession, you get good then you get fast (or short if you will). As @Swini‌ says "ski more"!!

[SkiLady]

I am currently fairly consistent at 34pmh (max speed) and was maybe 70% at -22 towards the end of the season. I feel (feel being the operative word, motions that I perceive myself doing) that often what I feel in the course isn't what my coaches see. I know that at my level the fundamentals rule the game - head/eyes up, hips up, pull through the wakes, finishing the turn, and gates. These are all things I work on every set, some more than others. This past season, making my gates super consistent - pull out at the same time and progressively, "all" my weight on my front foot, handle in and down, roll hips under handle to initiate turn in - was the thing I worked on most all season. The others rotated in and out depending on what I was having trouble with that day/week.

 

I would love to know if any of you have trouble communicating with your lady ski partners. I often find myself thinking that I am a horrible student. I also know that physically I can be a much better skier than what my buoy count is, it's that thing between the ears that gets in my way ALL THE TIME!

[ozski]

On the subject of ski setup my personal thinking is that there is no benefit to using an aggressive wing setting for long line. My advice would be to use very little angle or remove it altogether. Think about putting it back on the ski once you are into -28 every set, at lengths beyond that I don't think the wing does much and possibly makes the skier pull for too long. I would like to hear other opinions on this.

[The_MS]

The main thing is to understand that by the time you think of something, its too late. That being said, practice it (one thing at a time) so that you don't have to think about it and don't worry about ball count. Your performance will suffer when you are trying/feeling things out but after awhile it just happens and then you can move on to the next issue.

[TNh2oskier]

I was having all sorts of problems entering the course this year, I either pulled out to much, and carried to much speed into the 1 ball, or turned in to late or to early. One of Gordon Rathburns news letters had this suggestion on gates and it helped some, any thoughts?

 

The Parrish gate has you pull out medium wide and pin your right arm (elbow) to your right side as you coast. When you roll in for the gates, the right arm never leaves your side. The handle never reaches any farther to the boat than your attached right elbow allows. At the end of your coast you want most of your weight on the front foot. Start in with the water breaking at the front of the binding. You then lean over, but not with your right shoulder down too much. It is nice to be a hair open. You will find that your attached right elbow will take a lot of the pressure from the boat and because it is attached, you will get some extra power and width at one ball. Try this and you will have better starts. Check out these great shots of CP in Acapulco.