Things to train skiers other then verbal coaching that has some merit or success...

[Wish]

So the Misconceptions thread got me thinking..as dangerous as that may be. I wrote that ZO settings are vastly different from each other especially at each end of the spectrum. We all know of video as a training tool or perhaps a speed change. But what else could be used? Could ZO be used to push a certain aspect/technique of a skier? Perhaps settings that forcing the skier to maintain connection off second wake because it is still engaged or forcing a skier to think about and execute quicker reactions off the ball because a certain ZO setting grabs you sooner. I know I chose my last ski partly based of my back. Wanted a ski that did not allow me to slam turns and take hits. Basically forcing me to ski better with that regard. I ended up training (short while) behind a boat with a small but stiff wake. I got good at not hitting them on a flat ski. Could ZO be used in a similar fashion? What else could be or is getting used to push out the bad technique and lock in or strengthen the good technique? Hopefully out of the box thinking wont receive a panda (although my ZO suggestion is probably damn close already). Brainstorming out of the box ideas welcomed.

[6balls]

My preferred setting minimizes my shortcomings rather than forcing me to fix them. Interesting to think about going the reverse direction to train for a bit...perhaps forcing me to be better where I'm weakest.

[Horton]

@wish I really like the idea but I think it is pretty foreign to most of us. Would you suggest that if a skier went from B2 to A1 they have to focus on handle control to compensate?

[Wish]

Did not notice that Advance Topic was the default as I posted the thread. Not my intention. What was nice is that a baller felt comfortable to PM me with his thoughts. Great use of a PM. But this was intended for ALL so let the free flow of ideas fly.

[RazorRoss3]

My understanding is that the "A"s apply throttle or compensate for skier pull from wake out to buoy which if you were training someone may help teach them to maintain outbound/keep 2 hands on the handle off the second wake. The "C"s which I use supposedly compensate for skier pull from hookup to the wakes which I think would train a skier to make sure they are stacked and ready to recieve the pull the moment they hook up out of the turn otherwise the boat will pull them out of position. A "B" setting I would then believe to be relatively neutral since it would give a little extra time to get into a stacked pulling position out of the buoy but would also require good control off the second wake since my understanding is that the boay compensates for the skier pull from about midpoint to midpoint with the "B" settings.

 

I'm not sure trying to train with setting changes may not do more harm than good due to lacks in consistency.

[Wish]

@Horton‌ Well, since it literally just hit me in the other thread and I've never heard of anyone doing this, it's prob as foreign as it gets. And kinda. It's also something I have not put a lot of thought into and I'm sure there is a ton of variables to consider. But the out of the box thinking is.. say you are one that gives the rope back to the boat off the second wake consistently and you ski the Bs or Cs. Move to the As, stay at the opener line length and work to making a better connection off the wake to the ball while ZO is giving you something to feel. And, if you get good at that connection it may eliminate that weakness. It's just that ZO is so consistent at doing things in specific places, why not think of it as a possible tool. I would NOT do this if I was in the tournament thralls of the season though. Oooooo, I know this is going to get fits of backlash but that's ok. The thread title statement is ANY out of the box thinking or ones in use that others may not have heard of but if it drifts so...no worries.

[Chef23]

@Wish I agree with your post in the other thread that you should try all the settings the issue is I think for skiers that are progressing is that their technique might not be consistent enough to know if the problem is them or the setting. Certainly if they run more balls consistently on one setting that is easy to recognize but most skiers that don't run shortline are inconsistent.

 

I landed on the setting I use (A2) when I was at Coble's with April in the boat. She tried a couple of different settings and thought I looked best on A2. Last year Joel had me try a different setting and came back to A2. Unfortunately I don't train behind ZO so it is difficult for me to try all the settings and see if it is really the best. Fortunately I ski as well in tournaments behind ZO as I do at home behind PP.

[Luzz]

I see your point @wish and I think there are technical situations in which ZO can help. But I always prefer to work on my own skiing before going to external factors.

 

Towards the end of 2013 I decided to give a big spin to my technique and try really hard not to backside the buoy but to take a gentler and smoother turn. Essentially, I was shifting my focus and energy from turn to wakes. I pretty much used C1 since ZO came out, and it suited my technique well. I knew that eventually a different setting would have been more appropriate once I nailed down my new technical approach, but I wasn't ready for it yet. Early this year, I felt that I was getting really close to achieve the intensity distribution I wanted, and my training partners were giving me good feedback. So I tried the setting I had in mind all along, B1, and it worked great, actually helping me with that extra 10% I was looking for.

 

Would I have achieved my technical goals faster had I started using B1 from the start? I don't think so

Are there situations where a switch in letter will help? Sure, but most of the times is trial-and-error and leaves one even more confused than before

[Wish]

@Luzz the way I'm thinking. Is there a setting that would have punished you for back siding the ball? (that may have been C1 for you with you're new smoother style to a degree). You may have actually done what I was suggesting. It's just you already were running C1 out of habit. Once you mastered that technique at, lets call it, a "training" setting (for you it was C1 knowing you were not going to stay there) that was not friendly to you if you did not go "smoother". So the move to another setting that works well with that new technique would reward in spades ( that 10% you mentioned) as it seems to have done knowing B1 was the go to setting. And it seems you spent a good bit of time at that "training" setting before jumping to B1. It is opposite thinking. Moving to B1 right off the bat would have stunted this as you suggest. B1 was what you knew would work great once you mastered it behind a setting that made you work harder at getting it done and perfecting it. Does that clarify what my thought process is?. We may even be saying the same thing and agreeing on this.

[Luzz]

@wish, B1 would have punished me for back siding the ball, but I don't think that such punishment would have eased my way toward the technique I wanted. A different ZO setting changes a lot of things, and I believe you must have a certain degree of confidence in what you are doing technically (and your knowledge of what you are doing!) before complementing it with a ZO setting.

 

So I guess we are half-saying the same thing... :smile:

[Wish]

@Luzz Fare enough :) And I would agree with the "certain degree of confidence....".statement.

[101driver]

Brainstorming out of the box as you put it: Firstly I am not in you guys league as I am new to Skiing having come from wakeboarding. What you are talking about I experienced a couple of years ago in wake boarding. Firstly I would always advocate the usual approach of identify fault and work to correct it in any discipline not just water sports. Sometimes no matter how hard you try you can't get past your own limitations, mixing things up a little during training can sometimes help. I was wakeboarding behind my MC and obviously getting a nice even solid pull, I couldn't get the 3 elements of pop off the wake right any 2 perfect always dropped the 3rd, concentrate on No3 and dropped No2 etc. Went back to basics did my drills got them down went back to trying same result, repeat repeat repeat. Filmed my mistakes analyzed, just more frustration. Then one day I took a tow behind an old school little 16 foot fletcher with a 115hp outboard. Obviously cutting hard I nearly stopped it, but for some reason it was fun and somehow my rhythm was better, probably because I was dragging it sideways all over the lake as I did my drills. There was hardly any wake and it was like being towed on an elastic bungey cord but when I went for the jump it was so easy and natural. Went back behind my MC problem solved. We all know that sometimes you cant go from A to C directly you have to go to B first, what few realize is for some of us and my friends have been telling me this applies to me for years I have to go from A to B via Z F L and all manner of other letters, not logical just how it is.

My take on this phenomena, by removing the solid consistent pull my mistakes were exposed, I naturally compensated, this changed my rhythm I smoothed out more, the rate that I loaded the rope changed to a different load curve. Going back to the MC the pull was now consistent but I took data from the previous experience with me with out thinking and got past my problem.

[lpskier]

If the topic is "what can you do to train other than just chase buoys or get coaching," this fall and winter I am trying a new approach for me. I skied about 500 turns on jumpers at about 20 mph and long line in the slalom course, and have more jumper turns to go. I also bought a Connelly Aspect (same design as the Connelly V but wider) and am skiing at 28 mph/-15 (although I may take a big risk and speed up to 30). The goal is to slow everything down, focus on position, work on learning better technique and and developing a bit of a different strategy in the course, and do it enough times (lets say 1000 turns on jumpers and another 1000 on the Aaspect) so that when I go back to my regular ski and speed, muscle memory will bring the improved technique, etc. with me.

 

I have seen this technique work with other skiers, but I have "never had the time" to employ it considering I live in NY with a reasonably short season. My first tournament of the season is about a month after our course goes in and I am by nature impatient. This year I am spending the winter in Florida, skiing at Lucky's and LaPoints', and I have kind of a health issue that leaves me weak and overweight, so I have the time to try the program, and frankly it works better for me considering my level of fitness.

[101driver]

Ipskier, I really like your strategy. So much so I have printed off the goal part and pasted it on the filing cabinet next to my desk to remind me to do this. My fault is I focus too much on the objective and the barriers to it. This fits with a lot of stuff for me, riding dirt trails, wake boarding as well as just starting out on mono. Thanks useful.

Nigel

[bko]

@wish: years ago when ZO was new, I asked the question in a forum (here on BOS or on The Waterski Forum - I really don´t remember): "Which ZO setting makes me a better skier?". I was seeking advice on which setting would "force me" to improve my technique - not the setting that would be "the easiest" for me. Several skiers (Schnitz was among them) gave me friendly tipps, but nobody seemed to understand what I was going for. I came to the conclusion that the letter C would do for me what I thought was desirable: make me learn how to hook up right after the apex. Since C3 sounded too harsh for my weight (165lbs) I started off with C2 and never tried anything else (switched to C2+ when the + was released). My technique changed over those years from "pulling long" to "early edge change".

In 2013 trying letter B made me feel uncomfortable and A was no fun at all (engaged way too late for what I am used). Since then I use C1(a softer, fogiving feel compared to C2).

 

I truly believe that my skiing technique was shaped by the ZO setting I chose.

[colo_skier]

Off thread here but it seems that for ZO you are saying C comes in earlier than A? I thought it was the other way around. @bko and @RazorRoss3 That may explain why I am not liking what I feel versus expect when I change settings.

[RazorRoss3]

@colo_skier‌

C hits from hook up to wake

B midpoint to midpoint

A wake to ball

That is how it had always been described to me. And obviously the 1,2,3 denote the duration and intensity.

I'm a C1 guy personally

[colo_skier]

@RazorRoss3 That's pretty funny, I was under the impression that A and C were switched. I run C1 myself because I was sure I need extra time to get into a stacked position. No wonder PP felt spoungy to me!!!

[colo_skier]

Just read @Horton http://www.usawaterski.org/speedcontrol/zerooffpresentation.pdf and now it makes sense. Guess I will try something different next season as I was all messed up with what I thought was going on. Glad that its clear to me now.

[gregy]

@RazorRoss3‌ what are most 36mph skiers using? I saw a top 10 skier using an A setting. I asked him about it and he said C was more commonly used by 34mph skiers. Kinda the opposite of what I had been told before.

[RazorRoss3]

@gregy‌, I'm going to be honest and say I have absolutely no idea what most 36mph skiers use. I know a few of the 3 event guys use a B setting but I mostly ski with my Dad and my uncle who are 34 guys and I'm the only skier on the Iowa team who skis at 36, my teammates are are still working on moving through speeds.

 

What I would think about an A setting is that it would be good for maintaining speed after the second wake which might be good for a 34 skier who felt they where bleeding too much speed as they approached the ball. At 36 speed is easy so I never feel too slow at the buoy but I really like the feeling of the boat being there when I hook up that I get with C settings. This season I used C1 although in previous seasons I was on C2, this year the lighter hook up just felt better.

 

It's possible @MattP‌ or @webbdawg99‌ May have a better answer to what ZO setting most 36 mph skiers use.

[schafer]

Im a 36 mph guy. and Im A1. i was under the impression that lots of the 36ers used A. but this past season it seemed that in every tournament i went to that it was A B and C. sorry im not helping to answer your question

[webbdawg99]

I went from B2 to C2. Felt like I got more free of the boat after the second wake. The few other 36 mph guys I ski with all use B2. But I don't think any of them have really tinkered around with it. A lot of people just put B2 bc it's middle of the road and never change it from there.

[MattP]

@RazorRoss3‌ For the Pros it's all across the board from A3 to C1 and change sometimes from boat to boat and motor to motor. Just what I have picked up from dock starting a handful of pro events and skiing with them.

 

I am B2 and I've worked at a ski school and had the pros I have skied with say that I should stay there but there could be a better option. I have played with C2 before but that was last season. @webbdawg99‌ is right I kinda just set it there and go. It may be worth it next year to do some blind tests.

 

I have heard that when switching a setting you should switch a letter first keeping your current number consistent then switch the number. Is there any merit to this theory?

[RazorRoss3]

@MattP,If I were to look at it from a perspective of trying to find the setting that works well for someone I would think that that would be good advice if you think about the letter as the big adjustment and the number as more of a fine tuning once you've found the letter that works best. In that regard it would probably be best to test the letters in the 2 setting so you get the middle ground of all three. I hadn't really ever put a lot of thought towards how to find a setting but that method makes sense to me. I could see changing all factors at once like going B2 to A/C,1/3 would be a total mindscrew waiting to happen.

[webbdawg99]

Application of throttle relative to when skier begins to load off the ball:

 

[Wish]

A weee bit derailed from the actual thread topic. Maybe take a look at the thread title/post again before posting. This all got stuck on ZO as a possible training tool utilizing settings to maximize a skill set but looking for other out of the box thinking for training. Are we that boring in our training or have that little in creative thought? No wonder we are stuck at the line lengths we are stuck at..... just sayn.. Hope that spurs thought and posts not related to ZO since that has been hashed out.

 

[RazorRoss3]

That is infinitely better at describing the pull settings than I am. To the topic of the post, changing ZO settings as a training tool to fix bad habits still seems like a bad idea to me however I recomend that anyone who has time tries ABC and then moves on to fine tuning their favorite with 123.

[Wish]

@RazorRoss3‌ just to clarify ZO was just an example not the topic but using it as a training tool would be loooong after you have settled on that comfortable setting, have a true sense of self awareness when skiing and a good competent understanding of the settings themselves. Only then IMO could the idea of utilizing it as a tool come into play in the off season... It IS out of the box thinking. Do you have any training tools that you use or have been thinking about that pushes the boundaries of the tried and true training currently suggested by most? Looking to move into the untapped potential. Not suggest that anything be pushed as a "...you need to do THIS.." but ones that make us go hmmmmmm... Kinda like @Horton and @Luzz did with mine. I promise to not tell folks your's is a bad idea or not to do it. Really. :-)

[RazorRoss3]

@wish, hmmm... out of the box training...

Well not on the edge of the box especially for a new skier but even for a seasoned skier in the early season is a good old pulling drill, something that some of my friends can do that I'm completely incapable of but would likely teach someone to stay over their ski instead of falling away from the boat is slow down to 17 mph and run the course on a trick ski. In the area of pure off season training I would say do not go into hibernation and instead find the gym 3-4 days a week. Strengthen your core like there's no tomorrow and build up flexibility and strength in your lats, hamstrings, quads, hip flexors, and calves. I recommend low rows, squats, deadlifts, calf raises, and planks. That is not to say don't beat the hell out of every other muscle group as well, the stronger and leaner you are going into the next season the better off you'll be in my eyes although there is a limiting factor of weight.

[Marco]

Here is some out of the box training concepts. I tend to improve my skiing through injuries. For example:

 

Technique problem # 1- Bent elbows behind the boat

Injury solution # 1- Tore my biceps, forcing me to keep my arms straight while under load

 

Technique problem # 2- Too much weight on my rear foot

Injury solution # 2- Badly injured my rear calf, forcing me to stand tall on the front foot

 

Technique problem # 3- Too early of a reach on my offside

Injury solution # 3- Completely dislocated my shoulder, so now I can only reach out with that arm when the boat takes the handle.

 

Technique problem # 4- Breaking at the waist

Injury solution # 4- Just had back fusion, forcing me to keep my back straight

 

This training method is not for the faint of heart, so try it at your own risk.

 

 

 

[jimbrake]

Here are a few non-verbal, non-ZO training methods that work when someone isn't responding to verbal cues. I have used many of these. Several coaches I've been to and around use these. Some work, some don't. Know your audience. Know when and how to be subtle or in-your-face. Some of these are dangerous and can be misconstrued and can backfire on you:

 

- stinkeye;

- the opposite of stinkeye - completely ignoring, not looking at them, no response at all;

- pointing out and up (as in "get out of the water, get off my lake, get off my dock, leave")

- gesturing (negative - face palm, head in hands, pretending to rip your hair out, throwing an air upper cut and stomping while giving above stinkeye, arms out and letting them drop like "I give up", hands on hips stare, thumbs down, the bird, double bird, etc. Positive - thumbs up, clapping, fist in the air, double fist in the air while you steer with your knees, touchdown sign, hands on the side of your head, mouth agape like "OMG!", smiling and a slow nod of approval, hug on the dock);

- hitting the rope on the motor box while the skier is still on the line followed by any of the above negative or positive gestures;

- dropping the skier, telling them to let go of the handle, then taking off back to the dock so they have to swim in and walk back (one of my personal favorites that I learned from an old-school, well known champion skier/coach - not kidding).

 

I started this (as usual) as a joke, but as I wrote it I realized there is too much reality in these forms of communication. I've never flipped off a skier, but I think I've done most of the others.

 

Warning - do not use any of the above on your wife or girlfriend if you intend on staying with them. Probably not a good idea for daughters either. Sons? Very, very judiciously, very wisely, very subtly. Other students? Have at it.

 

[Marco]

In all seriousness, I actually did use a change in ZO settings to break myself of a bad habit. I used to hook up hard at the ball, and couldn't break the long standing habit, so I switched my ZO setting to C, which would punish me for hooking up hard outside. After a month or so of not so stellar skiing, the habit went away. I still ski C1, never went back to A or B.

[Wish]

@Marco exactly.

[jimbrake]

@Marco - hmmm. I dunno. I had, and still do have, the same problem on my onside - overturn, overload. If I ski an A setting, I often will literally fall in. The C settings "save me" and enable me to keep skiing. The "C"s are "enablers". "Yeah, Jim, it's cool, man. Keep on crankin' those turns, bro. Keep on bein' you." Whereas the "A"s are like "wow, you suck, bro". I need to use the A settings to force myself to ease up and ski back to the handle. I think the advantage of the C settings is if you can carve/smear (!) back to the handle without overturning and overloading they will get you great early acceleration, which is a good thing.

[Marco]

@jimbrake - I do hear what your'e saying, but C worked for me. On C, if I turned hard and hooked up early, ZO would pull me up and out of position and I'd be heading towards the wakes with no connection or stack. Skiing C made me maintain speed through the turn and patience at the finish in order to not get hammered at the buoy. And your'e right, do it correctly and the early acceleration you get puts you high up on the next ball.

 

If skiing A helps you with the same problem, all the better. Whatever works. There is a 99% chance that my improvement on C was all between the ears anyways. It made me think about how I needed to change my technique every time I approached a buoy.

[jimbrake]

@marco - truth be told, not even C is fast enough sometimes to pick me up. I think I need D settings. Like D4 or 5. Actually, skiing back to the handle on my onside is probably THE main thing I work on. Regardless of setting, it's imperative. Finish smooth into a good connection and stack coming out of 1 ball and the rest is cake.

[bishop8950]

@wish, cool thread. A few thoughts

 

Ski in tough, but safe conditions. Go out in the wind, rain, glare and see if you can stick to your game plan without those things taking you down. Even better, learn how to adjust to them.

 

On nice man made lakes we often dont have any rollers. I have driven the boat all over the lake and then quickyl picked up skiers to ski through the rollers for practice. Would probably be eaiser with two boats. Either way its throwing a new variable into play to challenge you.

 

I love the idea of drills, but rarely do them.

 

While not getting away from verbal coaching, Sunset Ranch use wireless headsets so you can talk to the skier during the pass. I have never tried it but they swear by it as a tool to help learn the timing of the course. Lucky Lowe wistles, others yell, Doug talks calmly into a head set.

 

Ski with distractions. I heckeled Will Bush from the dock during a set and it messed him up (so he says). So during my set he was gasing his boat and while I went around the island he stood on the motor box and showed me his full moon. I was laughing my ass off but wanted to make sure I ran that pass, and did, barely (pun intended)

 

Generally try to ski different lakes, boats, drivers, conditions. I know several very good skiers that have a hard time when they leave home.

 

I agree with others that changing boat speed, boat wakes and ZO settings are otherways to challenge you.

 

I think the most important thing is that you have a plan and use whatever tools you need to work through that plan.

[Wish]

@bishop8950‌ that is great stuff. I've become to used to waiting for good water since I moved to FL. It has burned me in tournaments. I do run all kinds of different cruise controls, drivers, boats and set ups at different sites. That's paid off in spades as I rarely get spooked by a new tournament site. As to ZO, I practice mostly behind and OLD PP..no settings. I find when I get to a tournament and use C1 it's actually easier to ski. My tournament scores are always on par, sometimes higher with practice for the most part and have been since I started using C1. Variety and mixing up variables, as you say, keeps you on your toes and if you're not skiing with some athleticism and quick reaction time, a set can end early without it. Great stuff.

[alex38]

After seeing @adamcord's diagrams, I think of an old but never verbalized thought of mine:

 

Could someone create diagrams or visuals of what is happening to a fin under water at different settings to increase the what-is-going-on awareness?

 

[alex38]

Back in the old days I remember reading about tips like wear a baseball hat and push the visor way down to force the skier to keep head up, and tying a bungee around the knees to keep them together-didn't read all the posts maybe those were mentioned.

[alex38]

Run back to backs of an intermediate pass, go off the dock at a challenge pass

[alex38]

Ski in the rain, the cold, into the sun, in rollers, in wind, ignore it all and ski.

[101driver]

Going back To wish's original post could ZO settings be used to train or correct a poor technique. Yes I train people on a chemical plant with auto control systems, taking the control off auto or putting exaggerated manual inputs in forces the operator to confront areas outside of his comfort zone or if targeted to develop strategy /technique to overcome their problem. Returning to standard settings operator performance will have always increased. I can see no reason why as wish suggested the same cannot be done in skiing by altering the input from the boat, ZO settings being just one method. Thinking outside the box If their was a prestigious once a year tournament with high rewards which required each competitor to run the course 3 times on 3 different widely spaced fixed ZO settings, would this improve sking ability or not in the long term. I always thought as ZO as a great improvement which gave consistency but reading this string I can't help now wondering if its a crutch?

[Wish]

Going back to @Marco‌ post on injury. I agree as I've done this and will be doing it again. Last yr, Feb, I tweaked my back pretty good. After a good bit of time off the water, I started skiing differently. In oder to "save" my back I had to concentrate on 2 different things slowly getting back into it all. 1. Ski ALL THE WAY back to the handle. Do not reach or bend forward for it especially the off side. 2. Stacked stacked and stacked..did I say stacked. As the back got better, and the line got shorter, this payed off big in the first tournament of the year. Looks like I'll be doing that again as my back went out in Nov. In PT now so a slow climb back but I think it will force better technique....again.

 

That reminds me. Met a PT Baller last weekend who was staying in town so ran him up and down the lake a few times. Good skier. And an uncanny about of similarities between us from ski to gloves to boats..on and on. I think he introduced me to his wife as his long lost brother. BOS rocks for meeting like minded obsessors.