Do you think there are times when you want to lift your back heal off the ski?

[Horton]

I removed the Advanced Version of this poll to limit confusion

[Onside135]

I recall seeing pictures of Nate and Andy doing it, so it must be the right thing to do at times!

[Horton]

@Onside135 Please Please read the wisdom of @Luzz - link below

 

http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/12161/the-subjectivity-of-technique-and-why-that-is-exciting-this-should-be-required-reading

[Onside135]

Ha...I had read that article (a few months ago...I believe), and I thought it was very good. My comment was mostly in jest and in consideration of that article.

 

That being said, aren't an increasing number of higher level skiers utilizing RTP rear bindings at least partly for the increased mobility and to get hips/COM more forward at times? I'm not suggesting that everyone do this, or that I'm going to try it myself, but it may be right at times.

 

Forget that I mentioned higher level skiers...if it works at any level at certain times it "could" be the right thing...just not for everyone.

[Horton]

@Onside135 Smith is an example of a skier who has his rear heel off the ski a lot of the time. The catch is you need to have a very advanced foundational skills before you even think about doing what Smith does. I would say if you are not a Level 9 skier you are only going to hurt yourself doing this (please take video).

[Razorskier1]

I am RTP. My heel does lift up at times. I don't know if it helps or hurts my scores

[mrpreuss]

I did not realize it until I started ripping the plate off of the ski in the back, especially during real early transitions.

It happens when I transition at the first wake, as the ski passes the second wake and I roll from edge to neutral. That's when the heel would come up. It started with new velcro. I use a shortie rear hard shell that will release the heel up like a RTP now.

[Horton]

@mrpreuss what line lengths do you ski?

[rab]

For those that have not seen this yet it is a video of Andy Mapple's heel while he skis.

[Horton]

@Razorskier1 where / when?

[MISkier]

I think I must do it, since I ripped the screws through the back of my binding last season and bent the front toe when the heel lifted up. Granted, I wasn't using the proper washers to disperse the load over more aluminum in that slotted area. But, I must be applying some upward pressure back there.

 

 

[mrpreuss]

@Horton

I haven't skied as much as I'd want the last few years, but I still run 28-35 skiing no more than 2 (short, 4-6 passes) sets a week. 1 set a month in the winter in skiing months when I ski winters. I skied three sets since July of last year. One a month ago, 40's water 50's air ran 6 - 28's Saturday I skied with Cory in SRB ran 4 28's. The Last set was 2 28's and 1 32 then 5 @ 32 heavy tailwind.

@OB and myself have a longstanding friendship and rivalry for many years...

Tournament average was 2@39 first couple years in M3. Since then I only ski for fun but still compete when I feel like it or not enough participants to support skiing

I can't seem to edit my profile. says multiple people with same email...

I ski a 67 Prophecy now but only skied maybe 12 - 20 sets the last 3 years since I got it.

I love that ski...

 

Andy's heel comes up a bit on the video above

 

Is there a way to search and see what I have posted in the past?

 

 

[countymountie]

After being told many time, "get your hips up" , "stop skiing off your back foot" and not improving, I am going to focus on keeping my back heel down, back leg straight. My Radar sequence plate (first generation) is all bent up from me subconsciously lifting up my back heel. After moving back to a RTP I noted how much I was lifting it.

[ozski]

The heel lift is never going to be conscious thing. In my case I've had a ton of ankle injuries and my ankle does not flex like it did when I was 20, running my rear boot relaxed allows that little bit of extra freedom and the ankle can lift inside the boot. This is a recent change in my setup and I've grown to like it and set a PB so something is working.

[Horton]

@mrpreuss I ask your skiing level because I often do not know who I am talking to. Turns out we are about the same skiing level.

 

You agree that what you describe above is not something you would tell a skier to try to do?

[Horton]

If you click on your user name you will go to a screen with a link to all the comments you have ever made. On the right under Activity.

[oldjeep]

I know that I tend to lift my heel and push hard with the toes sometimes as I am late. I'm sure that is wrong, but it is what I do

 

[Texas6]

I ride double Stradas and have since the RS-1 days. I am certain my back heel moves around inside the back boot but of course it's restricted movement. It feels as though more freedom might be of some benefit. After watching Andy Mapples back foot from the GoPro just behind his RTP, it was abundantly clear his heel likes to move around as well

[Horton]

@Texas6 but you are not Andy : -)

[Chef23]

I couldn't tell you if I lift my back heel I know I don't consciously do it. I have always skied in a RTP and continue to do so. I don't believe my back heel comes up and it certainly doesn't through the wakes. It probably does move around some though I would think it would be hard for it not to.

[mrpreuss]

@Horton

I would never coach it, however I would suggest all skiers to at least try loosening their rear binding. I skied for 10 or 12 years with what I call technique and it wasn't until I put new velcro on that I realized the huge mistake a clamped down rear heal was... At first I suspected bad Velcro but that was not the case... It was the inability of my heel to lift up... Andy uses a relatively long edge through the wakes which would explain his heel only slightly raising in his transition. It is most apparent when I have a super early transition and hit the second wake or trough that it is very pronounced.

[mrpreuss]

@Horton

check my email please so I can edit my profile.

[mrpreuss]

for me, activity pulls up all recent stuff by everyone...

[MattP]

@mrpreuss

This will show you your comments http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/profile/comments/625/mrpreuss

 

You can search them here http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/search Click the arrow on the right side of the search box. Enter your username into the "Author" Line and whatever specific search in the search bar .

[ToddL]

There are times (prior to entering the course) that I focus on the balls of my feet. I do NOT lift my heal, but I focus on pressure under the ball of my foot. I guess it may come up just a touch, but I am not trying to make it come up off the foot bed.

 

I think heal lift happens as a result vs an intentional action. If a healthy skier is balanced in their stance, there isn't a significant need for any heal lift. However, if a skier is too far forward or stuffs a finish to a turn, I suspect that the rear heal lifts a good bit then.

 

To those who posted pics or mentioned damage to their bindings, I have this question? Did you stuff any turns prior to that damage?

 

 

[MISkier]

@ToddL, I don't recall any specific turn-stuffing. I do have an issue with not getting my hips up enough, but it hasn't been enough to stop the turns cold. My binding broke pulling through the gates, which is an offside pull for me (LFF). I surmise that the greater stress on my back heel is during that particular direction of pull. I don't know why or if it is right or wrong.

[MarkM]

I have an Animal rear with a Venom overlay and never lace it.

[ToddL]

thanks @MISkier. I guess I was thinking that the time of failure, might not be the only instance of stress on the binding... It was just the last time it was stressed.. (ya know, like the lost item was always located in the last place you looked...)

[MISkier]

@ToddL, that picture I posted was not my only binding failure. I also pulled the back/heel plastic inserts out of a Goode a few years back. That was also on my gate pull. As you said, that point of failure may represent the last point of stress. But, it does seem coincidental. In that other instance, the front screws also gave way and pulled out of the inserts after the heel lifted and the entire binding detached.

 

In both cases, I realized the problem, aborted the edge change, released the handle, and glided/wobbled to a stop.

[mrpreuss]

 

[ToddF]

I guess this is a big part of my problem, my heel can't touch the unless I am doing a wheelie. Lack of flexibility prevents that. So I guess I am going to have to ski more like Nate and Andy by default. :)

[Horton]

@ToddF unlikely

[ToddF]

@Horton which one is unlikely? my heel touching the ski or skiing like Nate and Andy? I think both are pretty remote possibilities.

[Luzz]

Not sure if lift is what I always go for, but move... yes! It allows me to approach my offside more centered on the ski.

[Skoot1123]

There are times when I think more heel lift would be better, but then if I was skiing with perfect/great technique to begin with then I may not need it that much. My perception is that it could help you get/put more pressure on the tail of the ski to slide it out during the turn (as in your late and fast into the buoy and need to crank a turn). SO - it is mostly used when your in trouble as opposed to something you want to do all the time.

[Horton]

It is always surprising when a poll does not go the way I expect.

 

My thinking is:

Some super elite skiers lift their back heel approaching the ball. I am told Smith has his heel up in and out of the ball and then down from white water to white water. Smith is a supernatural freak. As @Luzz stated elsewhere, copying one aspect of an elite skiers position without understanding it is folly.

 

Many skiers move their heel around to adjust balance and stance.

 

When most skiers who are not Level 9 or above lift their heel, they are move their hips back – Not forward.

 

If there is imperfection with your stack may want to make sure both heels are firmly planted through the wakes.

 

You have much more power and balance when you are standing flat on two feet as opposed to having one heel up.

 

[Wish]

I consider my stiff hardshell boots to have some give in the heal. I set the buckles to allow for it. I know, 100%, my back heal rising when getting up out of the water at least an inch or more as I feel it hit the sides of the boot where it gets narrow for the ankle. While there is no lateral movement based on the boot, I have felt the heal rise in a pass and hit the narrowed part of the boot many time. I feel it in the set up for the gates and in pre turns. Not something I try to do. It just happens. @Luzz you say your heal does move side to side. Is that an intentional move? and where and when do yo move it within the course.?

[mikegile]

I definitely lift my rear heel. Evidence of this is a broken plates behind the rear heel.

 

I have a lack of ankle flexibility and feel lifting the rear heel is the only way I can get my weight forward enough coming into the turn.

 

I believe it is also necessary for me if I am to keep my knees bent during the edge change. Picture Terry Winter

[RazorRoss3]

From a number of posts I've read, coaching I've recieved, and personal experience I can say two things here:

1) Less movement on top of the ski or a quieter stance seems to make everything better so in a perfect world you probably should keep your heel down and it likely shouldn't slide left to right either despite a RTP giving it that ability.

2) I don't know a single person who skis completely technically perfect every moment they are on the water and when the rubber hits the road and you want to get to the next buoy and get out of a pass after making a technical blunder I think that having more mobility and therefore more options is a good thing. I believe there have been a few times where being able to change my position and weight distribution by changing the orientation of my rear heel has made a positive difference but I would think it was likely after a different mistake caused a problem with my position on ski.

 

On a similar note; until last season my rear heel had pretty much never touched my ski. This was because I skied with a perfectly straight, locked out to hell front knee. This frequently earned my the comment "it's amazing that you can run -32 with a completely locked knee, you'd be able to do it a lot easier if you bent the thing". I think that is one example of heel up being a means of compensating for a different technical blunder although it's entierly possible that a raised heel could be a natural resting position for some people. At the end of the day I like having the option.

[Deanoski]

I like to unweight my heel not lift it, I tried to go RTP but could not do it. ended up with a willey 3/4 rear boot lots on mobilty but still hold the foot secure. where do i unweight? into off side turn after the second wake.

[Razorskier1]

@Horton - approaching the ball

[Texas6]

Ha that gave me a chuckle @Horton; No I am nowhere near Andy nor would I ever claim to be. Simply making the point that I don't think its uncommon but likely more involuntary that people tend to move their back foot a bit when they ski. I know I don't think about it but I ruin a Backfoot liner every season

[Murrski]

@Horton - I would have answered "I don't know" or "not needed" a week or two ago but I noticed that my dry dock training (offside pull/lean position) my back heel lifts. My dry dock training feels natural and not forced. I also have a lot of lift damage as shown in a previous comment - suggesting that there may be lifting force occurring. I use dbl T-Factors that do allow a little heal lift but I'm not totally sold that it's truly lifting - I'm guessing. I also think I lift in the pre-turn too. By no means am I elite - just a hacker into 35'.

[Goose]

A better question might be does it reduce drag thus aid in being faster side to side.

[rodecon]

I would agree with @wish and @razorskier1, heel lift is not something I think about doing but for me is a natural occurrence as I stand tall before the gate shot or coming into the ball. My Radar Vector rear boot does allow a bit of beel lift though not any sideways movement.

 

I believe my heels are firmly planted everywhere else in the course.

[6balls]

My heel is up on approach to the ball after second wash until finishing the turn.

[Luzz]

@wish I am aware of lifting my left heel as I approach 1-3-5 (rff). However, I am sure I move it to the right a lot too. The rubber padding underneath my heel is always much more consumed on the right, and it makes sense. Despite the hundreds of thousands buoys I have turned in my life (I can't wait to start again btw), the slalom ski forces the body to an unnatural stance. I notice is even when I am on the platform or behind the boat, my left foot tends to rotate left.

 

I have the feeling that at the end of both turns, I rotate it left. After all, right before dropping in, that is when I am the lightest on the ski. That may not work for people who are generally tall in their style, but regardless... I completely agree with @Horton on the two heels down as far as power goes, so I would recommend keeping your back heel down when you go across course.

[Horton]

thanks @Luzz good stuff

[BRY]

I don't do it consciously or even think about it. But quite a few years back decided to go from rubber to hard shell. Got some FM's but couldn't ski them, rear way to stiff for me and locked heal down. Went to Reflex and rear Wiley, the looser the Wiley the better I skied. Had PS5's (Goode ski then) that worked quite well (velcro good for me also). Went to a R-type rear with the Reflex (off Goode ski, velcro PITA if not needed) and even better. First few rides was amazed at how much easier (felt free) it was to get/keep hips forward. So systems with a close, locked down fit (but not real stiff) in front and allow heel lift work best for me. With RTP's I rarely but sometimes get my rear foot pulled out across the wakes (nasty) or heel halfway off the side of the ski in scrambling turns, so not confident with them.

[CWiedmer]

I know I lift my rear heal. I am LFF and ski a RTP now for knee protection. I know from years in sports I always feel much more athletic on my toes. But I would have never expected how easily I took to a RTP. When I pull out I am most definitely on my toes with my heal up and I slide it with each turn I take. I enjoy the freedom I have, and the feel of being mobile on the ski.