303Skier Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 So I went skiing this weekend and found out my 94' 190 has a blown engine. My question is, do I re-power it w/ZO or do I get a nice used ZO boat (Nautique or Malibu). The 94' I have is in great shape but has about 1200 hours on it. $13-$15k Vs. $30k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Fast351 Posted September 28, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 28, 2015 Depends on if you have the money right? The 1994 Prostar throws a hell of a good slalom wake. Is the 2008 TSC3 wake better? Maybe slightly. Maybe not. All what you're used to. The thing to consider is what you need to get out of it. Are you going to sell it someday? You will never get the money back out of it. How good is the interior? A $30K 2008+ would probably have a nicer interior, and for sure lower hours. If I was going to keep it forever, do the repower. If someday you think you want to get something newer, no time like the present (plus your boat even with a blown engine is probably still worth $5K). The other option, if money is tight, is just to repower it with the exact same setup. A remanufactured long block can't be much more that $3-$4K, maybe another grand to install it if you're not wrenching yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Broussard Posted September 28, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 28, 2015 @Fast351 If he repowers it will have less hours than the 2008+ . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller swc5150 Posted September 28, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 28, 2015 You'll never get your money back out of a 94PS repowered for ZO. My buddy had his 94PS motor rebuilt last summer for $2,500. I'd probably start there, and then decide if you want a ZO boat. Just my opinion of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303Skier Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 Hey guys! Thanks for the input. I am a tournament 58k/36 Mph skier getting into 38 off so I need a boat that will be consistent and feel like newer boats. I don't really care about interior and I don't care too much about resale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller disland Posted September 28, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 28, 2015 196 no question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted September 28, 2015 Baller_ Share Posted September 28, 2015 For those that have re-powered and ZOed their boats I know of none who have regretted doing so. 94 MasterCraft is a great platform for the classic "ski tractor" re-power. Keeping up with the Jones can get expensive now a day's! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303Skier Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 I love the wake and the boat drives decent. Not like a Nautique but for thousands less I can live with it. My question is will the new engine paired with the old transmission and shaft/prop be some what similar to the pull of newer boats? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted September 28, 2015 Baller_ Share Posted September 28, 2015 The new Chevy engine usually utilizes the old transmission and engine mounts and will go exactly where the old Chevy went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303Skier Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 @Jody_Seal Would there be a way to know if it would be a direct fit for sure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nautibynature Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 What happened to the engine in the 94? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beastmode Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 I have a 94' ps PP pro and only use it for Free skiing mostly. I ski with it in the course alittle in the winter, not even close to comparing the feel of a 2013 or newer boat that has to be used to pull a slalom tournament. My training partner has a 2012 Nautique 200 that is the exact feel of a tournament boat. I would rebuild the motor for $2500 and sell it. if you are into 38 you need a newer boat!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Fast351 Posted September 28, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 28, 2015 @Broussard Well, sure, the ENGINE would have less hours, but the rest of the boat would still have way more. If it were me, I'd either just rebuild the current mill (depending on the engine failure) or put a remanufactured long block in it. In either case you're done for under $5K. Then either live with it as is, or trade up to a newer ski boat if you so desire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303Skier Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 If I can have a ZO boat for $10k why wouldn't I just re power my 94? It would have a brand new PCM power plant with ZO control in a older hull. The boat is in great mechanical condition minus the engine. I don't see how a newer boat would be any better? Can someone tell what I am missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller skier2788 Posted September 28, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 28, 2015 @303Skier is that 13 to 15k to have it done or you doing it? If you bought the engine I could help you do the engine swap and ZO install. Have done several boat engine rebuilds and one retrofit ZO 196. If you need a pull in the next few weeks hit me up and we will ski. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BCM Posted September 28, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 28, 2015 I bet if you shop around you could find a ZO boat for $25k. Assume you could get $4-5k for your old boat. Your into a newer boat $20k. I always assume the high end of the budget when building projects like this. Lets take your $15k estimate. The way I look at it it is a $5k ($20k for new boat vs. $15 for repower) difference. If i was in your shoes and had the cash on hand, the re-power would be a hard sale and frankly a harder sale with my wife. If you could realistically do the repower for closer to $10k it may be a different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller rodltg2 Posted September 28, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 28, 2015 Old boats aren't cool. Get a new one ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GregHind Posted September 28, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 28, 2015 You need to spend how much to fix what you have and make it saleable? $5k?? How much of your time? How much EXTRA is it to put a Zero Off setup in your boat? $10K? A blown engine is the perfect time to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303Skier Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 @skier2788 I spoke to Jody and I can get a bobtail 343 for around $9k dropped shipped. Add an extra $1600 for ZO and another $500 for miscellaneous parts and I have a ZO boat for $11K. With my current situation it's going to cost me at least $2,500 for a short block. So if you really think about it, if I sell my Perfect Pass with Z-box ($1000), other parts off my old 350 ($500) and cost of new short block ($2,500) it might be as cheap as $7.5k. My dad and I are mechanics, we would do all the work installing the engine. I just don't see why I'd spend $20+K on a new boat when I could get what I'm after for $10k? If the boat wouldn't feel at all close to the newer ZO boats then I could see the point but it's the engine and speed control that makes these boats the way they are. I could care less about the "cool" factor or aesthetics, this is all about fixing my problem and getting something I can practice behind that will be close to when I go to tournaments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Fine409 Posted September 29, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 29, 2015 Not sure if you've seen this thread on Teamtalk but this guy may be able to give you some tips and lessons learned on the conversion if you decide to go that route... http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=57937 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Broussard Posted September 29, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 29, 2015 @Fast351 You typically give hours based off the engine anyway... . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303Skier Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 @dtm8119 the project on Teamtalk looks a lot more involved then what I have planned. From what I understand the 5.7 Excalibur mounts right in the same place the old engine is and also mounts to the original transmission. All I would need to do is run some fuel lines, rout the throttle cable to opposite side of motor and possibly relocate the oil filter bracket. Oh and wire ZO in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller brody Posted September 29, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 29, 2015 I would do the repower, save the cash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller rockdog Posted September 29, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 29, 2015 @303Skier I think you've answered your own question. And I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303Skier Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 @rockdog What I want to know is if there is anything I'm missing? Is this boat going to be good enough to mimic newer ZO boats. I think I know what I'm talking about but i'm sure there is something I'm no thinking of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ozski Posted September 29, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 29, 2015 As the owner of a ZO converted 196 I could not be happier with the performance of the boat. There was and probably always is more brain damage than you anticipate with this type of project but if you need something to distract you over winter then its worth it. ZO will transform the old Mastercraft and I would jump in line for a ski behind it! Good luck mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303Skier Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 @ozski what year is your 196? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ozski Posted September 29, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 29, 2015 Its a 6.0L from 2005 so not that dated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller sunperch Posted September 29, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 29, 2015 We repowered our '98 Nautique last winter and could not be happier. +1 for repower option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller LLUSA Posted September 29, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 29, 2015 Listen to the expert, Jody knows what he's talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Skoot1123 Posted September 29, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 29, 2015 @303skier - I like your thinking. I just bought a "new" boat strictly for skiing. A 2001 196. Engine is fantastic, wake and tracking are impeccable. If you like the way your boat drives and there is nothing wrong with it, why not just keep it? Seems like a no brainer to me. Keep us updated on your re-power project!! BTW - great skiing!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller wtrskior Posted September 29, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 29, 2015 Is it possible to rebuild the motor or is the case mangled? what is wrong with it exactly? I think guys are fooling themselves if they think a 20 year old boat is going to pull like a modern zo boat new Excalibur engine or not. A 94 mc is not in the same league as a 97+ 196 either so I don't think that is a good comparison for converting to zo, but you know the boat better than any one. From a financial standpoint Spending an extra 10k on what is a 8k boat is not the same as spending 25k on a 25k boat, or rather 20k on a 25k boat after you sell the 94. You are looking at 10k on what is a 15 year newer boat that will be worth 15k more than the 94 repowered, a $5000 return on investment essentially. On your current rig you are down your engine/zo investment right off the hopper as it wont add much value. With a used zo boat you have depreciation & with the way towboat resale has been for the last 15 years you won't lose much from depreciation if its kept in good condition. Personally the only way I'd consider it is if finding an extra 10k was out of the equation, otherwise financially and practically buying a newer boat is the wiser choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller fu_man Posted September 29, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 29, 2015 I see a few posts here suggesting you could get $5k for your current boat. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think you'll have a tough time getting 5 grand for a 21 year old boat without an engine. If you are happy with the pull of your current boat keep it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Skoot1123 Posted September 29, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 29, 2015 Its easy to spend someone else's money. Its a greater challenge to find the right balance between what you want to do and what is the best option for you (whether it be at that time or in the future). We can't always borrow against the future, but then again, there is no time like the present! Either way - a ZO or a re-power - now is the time to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Onside135 Posted September 29, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 29, 2015 @303Skier Check your Inbox. I gave you the number of ski buddy of mine who converted a '94 Prostar last summer. Said he'd love to answer any questions you might have. Good luck in your decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ DW Posted September 29, 2015 Baller_ Share Posted September 29, 2015 @303Skier: I would certainly ask the people that have done the conversion if their boats feel and ski like a new boat that is used in tournaments as it appears that is your criteria. Some random thoughts/questions: does ZO react similar / the same on a 2600 lb boat compared to a 3300 lb (newer) boat, does the difference in width of current vs. mid 90's boat make a difference to you & how sensitive are you to wake differences from yours to new? I assume what you don't want is to spent the coin to update to ZO and then find out when finished that is performs or feels just like your previous PP + Zbox did. What specifically comprised the engine failure? Are you assuming the significance to require a new short block or can you "see" the problem and know the extent of the damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303Skier Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 @Onside135 Thanks a ton...this will be a huge asset in my project! @DW @Nautibynature @wtrskior Those are some great questions to ask and take note of. The current engine has a crack in the block. Not sure how it happened being that it isn't winter and hasn't frozen? We were having some issues with it cranking and thought it was the starter. replaced started and still had the same issue. When you go to crank the boat, it seems like the engine is locked up/seized. If you crank hard enough and get the engine to break loose it will start and run great! We then looked on the dip stick and in the valve cover and it's obvious a lot of water has gotten into the oil. So at this point it could be a cracked block or cracked heads/intake manifold...the list goes on. Engine hasn't been broken down yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Waternut Posted September 29, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 29, 2015 Not knocking either option but unless your engine grenaded itself, you can rebuild it for less than $1k easily with a little elbow grease. I bought all the tools and parts last winter and did a complete rebuild on my 351w engine. It's not hard at all. Both the Ford and Chevy engines are so popular that youtube videos can practically guide you through the process if need be. If you're considering a ZO repower, I'm assuming you have the mechanical aptitude required for a rebuild though. If rebuild is not an option, I think it ultimately comes down to money and desires. New boats have a lot nice features that make life more enjoyable. However, an older boat with the right equipment and thousands more $$$ in your pocket can make skiing more enjoyable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller liquid d Posted September 30, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 30, 2015 Go ski for a day with that guy that has the same boat already done! Simple solution. I don't know about the MC, but the 97 conversion SN works great! and we've got an 07 196 zo boat too..switch back and forth all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller skier2788 Posted September 30, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 30, 2015 @303Skier if you want to take a ride behind a retrofitted 196 mine is in Loveland until it freezes. Devils advocate. Will you need to add a low pressure pump in the tank? Will you need to add a return fuel line? How much wiring will be involved in wiring in an ecm. Will the gauges work on the new different resistance sensors? Is the raw water pickup different and need to be rerouted? Just some thoughts I had about what you might run into. I am assuming your boat is carburated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Bruce_Butterfield Posted September 30, 2015 Baller_ Share Posted September 30, 2015 I have a '97 Nautique that I repowered with the 343 Excalibur a few years ago and have close to 1000 hrs on the new engine. The difference in slalom pull between my boat and a new one with the same engine is zilch. The new ones with the 6 and 6.2l engines are different, but that's a different discussion and gets in the weeds. In reality there is more difference when you change the props than the engine. The main thing that "I" would be concerned about with a '94MC would be the spray at short line. If you're ok with the spray, the next concern would be the things that are wearing out on a 21 year old boat - in my priority order: Overall "driveability" - what do your drivers think about driving it? Do you have a 4 blade prop? Steering cable and linkage Strut bearing Rudder packing and linkage Fuel lines and gas tank (definitely replace all fuel lines if you repower) Seats and upholstery Overall hull condition - structural and cosmetic Trailer condition Think through these questions, and probably several more, and you should be able to get to the solution that works best for you. Good luck and keep asking questions! If it was easy, they would call it Wakeboarding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303Skier Posted September 30, 2015 Author Share Posted September 30, 2015 @skier2788 I'd love to come ski behind you tug and see for myself how the 343 ZO would feel! My 94 is a throttle body EFI and already has the return line back to the tank. The PCM engine would have the low and high pressure pump already attached, no need for a sending unit. The gauges will probably be my biggest hurdle as I've heard they might not work depending on the engine I get and sending units on it. I haven't researched the raw water p/u but I'm sure that will be the least of my worries. I'll PM you for a ride before it gets cold! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ RichardDoane Posted September 30, 2015 Baller_ Share Posted September 30, 2015 @303Skier - if you do the re-power, send the transmission out for an overhaul as well, and figure in the gauge set that matches the engine and ecm will be needed, back in 2010 I considered doing the same thing to my 92 MC 205, but ended up ordering a new MC instead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Fast351 Posted September 30, 2015 Baller Share Posted September 30, 2015 Do the newer ZO based gauge packages still run Faria serial bus? If so, the gauges are cake. Not sure if they have 3.5" tach/speedo setups though, so it might be a little work to find those. That is the one thing about the gauges that I was pleasantly surprised with on my 2007 is the simplicity of the wiring. They pick off all the signals from the CAN bus. Three wires from the ECM, and three wires to each gauge, and you're done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303Skier Posted September 30, 2015 Author Share Posted September 30, 2015 @Fast351 I haven't researched the gauges yet but this is great to know! I just found this great article on history of gauges in automotive and marine. http://faria-instruments.com/canbus.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303Skier Posted September 30, 2015 Author Share Posted September 30, 2015 Also here is a picture of the tug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller swc5150 Posted October 1, 2015 Baller Share Posted October 1, 2015 Speaking of ZO, does the 3 event version ever go on sale? It seems like it's been $1,600 forever. Most electronic devices at least go on sale once in a while, or the retail drops at some point. I suppose if you're the only game in town, the latter is moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303Skier Posted October 1, 2015 Author Share Posted October 1, 2015 Or even better, does anyone have a used ZO they need to unload? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller skier2788 Posted October 1, 2015 Baller Share Posted October 1, 2015 @303Skier http://www.ski-it-again.com/php/skiitagain.php?endless=summer&topic=Search&category=Parts_Engine&postid=31823 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303Skier Posted October 1, 2015 Author Share Posted October 1, 2015 @skier2788 Thanks for the link Travis! I think this would be a little more work then I want to do. Plus by the time I buy the ECM and other supporting bolt-on's it would probably be too much money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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