BigDawgs at the US Open Finals - a good thing or a bad thing?

[Horton]

I got a call this morning from a pro skier. He was asking my opinion about the US Open finals. His feeling is that it is awkward to have only 5 Pros for each final (Men’s & Women’s) but 16 BigDawgs. There is also the suspicion that there is more money for the BigDawgs than the Pro men slalom. I can not find the prize money breakout. I believe there is 40k total for the pros.

 

On the press release published yesterday it appears that the BigDawg final is the last event of the day. From what I can tell the scheduling thing is a misconception. I believe the order of events is as below.

 

October 24, 2015 Lake Ivanhoe

 

8:30 – 10:30 am Nautique Big Dawg Sweet 16 (run down to 8)

10:35 -11:35 am Nautique US Open Women and Men’s Trick Finals

11:40 – 12:40 pm Nautique Big Dawg Elite (run down to 4)

12:45 – 1:20 pm Nautique US Open Women’s Slalom Finals

1:25 – 2:10 pm Nautique Big Dawg Head to Head Finals

2:15 – 2:50 pm Nautique US Open Men’s Slalom Finals

2:55 – 4:25 pm Nautique US Open Women and Men’s Jump

 

The question is: is it a good thing or a bad thing that the BigDawgs and the Pros are skiing together at the US Open? Some think say it degrades the perception of the event and of the Pros. Some think it is just fun to see all these skiers at different levels skiing together. What do you think?

[klindy]

I think having them together is a good thing. If your comments are correct, that's taking a good thing and making it bad. I recognize its two separate tournaments but skewed that badly seems out of line.

 

Now add the USOpen to the end of the U.S. nationals and you'll have something!!!

[MattP]

EventTotal Cash Prize1st Prize2nd Prize3rd Prize4th Prize5th Prize

Men Slalom $10,000 $4,000 $3,000 $1,750 $750 $500

Women Slalom $7,000 $3,000 $1,750 $1,000 $750 $500

Men Tricks $3,000 $1,000 $750 $525 $400 $325

Women Tricks $3,000 $1,000 $750 $525 $400 $325

Men Jump $10,000 $4,000 $3,000 $1,750 $750 $500

Women Jump $7,000 $3,000 $1,750 $1,000 $750 $500

[Razorskier1]

In some respects I feel like the BD should remain its own separate thing. May detract from the attention paid to the pro athletes. On the other hand . . . it probably means there is a larger audience at the event. 16 BD skiers plus their significant others/family adds nicely to what can be smaller crowds at pro only events.

[Ed_Johnson]

Love the Big Dawg's...Love the Pro's, what's better than watching both in the same event. Hope it's a huge success !!!

[RazorRoss3]

I'd be fine with it except that event order makes it look like the pros are just providing rest between sets for the Big Dawgs. I think both the pros and the BDs are fun to watch but if one were to outnumber the other it should be the other way around at this event.

 

Good thing because more good skiers in one place draws bigger crowds and more attention to the sport which hopefully leads to growth in the sport.

[Wish]

@Razorskier1 you just hit the nail on the head. Attendance has been abysmal outside of family, friends and others directly or indirectly involved. This should be heald at a venue like the prelims. Silly to be held where there can only be a 4 ball course. The average Joe could care less that BD are there or not. Will all just look the same to them. "..what, more men skiing? Thought there was a winner already?" "Why are they going slower?" Look back at the vids posted of Pro tour stop. Those guys new it was a show and they catered to the average Joe on the shore and on TV by geting crowds involved even if it meant a not so good of a site and anouncing in line that is not coiled up on the boat floor. Here the site sucks cause it's to short for a standard course but the powers that be seemingly could care less. At least put 2 four ball courses side by side, get a crowd happy because they understand it 1000x easier who just beat who and build off that success for next years. Nope. 4 ball course with more course skiers to make it look like a bigger crowd/event. For me it's all good. I get to watch more skiers and I understand what's going on. Feel sad for the average Joe that comes down to just be confused and then not return the next year. Site was specifically selected BECAUSE the average Joe would be more likely to attend. Who do we want to see our awesome sport and understand it...get involved in it? I guess just already tournament oriented skiers. BDs won't make any difference and they are stuck with a 4 ball course.

[BRY]

Headliners have warm up acts, F1has F2, boxing has undercards. Most big events have the second tier with the top tier. More show, more excitement and the combo is bigger that the two separately. Having both will make the show bigger, with a better chance of getting some sort of crowd beyond friends and family. Most events I've been to it's pretty much been crickets on the shore.

To turn two premier events into exhibitions is sad though. 4 ball course, really?

 

[Wish]

@BRY you cannot be serious. Hardly anyone knows of the "Pro Waterski Events" let alone know what a BD is outside of friends, family, die hard skier fans (few that there are comparatively) and those involved with the tournament itself. Please tell me how this BD addition will get the "some sort of crowd" to come down to the shore. The people I just mentioned would go to a protected RECORD CAPABLE site in a heart beat. You're comparing worldwide massive sports with water skiing?. Please be realistic. This US Open IS a show with only a 4 ball course where a winner will be crowned but a show only the above mentioned will understand. Now if you want to compare those sports, let's do that. Hmmm...Joe public sees boxer X fall to the mat and lose and sees the guy standing as the winner or sees Car X cross the line first and wins while all other cars lose. The reason those sports are popular is the true simplisity of understanding winners and losers and seeing a battle take place right before their eyes. Now look at slalom. Same guy pass after pass after pass all looking the same to Joe with no clue what the anouncer is babbling in regards to line off. Then the next guy goes. Pass after pass after pass..then the next guy. Truly silly to think more of that (adding BD) will bring a crowd. Beer brings them, food brings them, and a sport that is easily understood in its outcome of winner and loser (dualing 4 ball slalom courses). Make it an easily understood show and they will come. Keep it the same and expect the same, BD or no BD. Won't matter either way. That's the reality wether we like it or not.

[Ralph Lee]

I despise the 4 ball course! It's like the NBA playing on a 9 foot rim, the NFL playing on a 60 yard field. The only interesting thing a 4 buoy course creates is it takes away a little bit of Nate's advantage over the rest of the skiers.

[T-fromTO]

Everyone, please don't anyone get the idea that the prize money for the Big Dawgs is anywhere near what the pros will be getting. Their prize money is in the hundreds not the thousands.

[chris55]

To me and for the average Joe that I am and following the event from Europe, we don't care how much money the winner of the US pro or the winner of the BD is making. We want to see scores and ski. But what a bumer, the final is on a 4 buoys......not even a normal slalom course. This is very disapointing for a slalomer and it takes some seriously out of the event. I think having the pro tour and the BD together is good but I would not mix them, one after the other.

"we leave nothing on the dock" but for 6 bouys not for 4 :'(

[LeonL]

Kinda off topic. I think you'll see a lot more scores of .5 or 1 at 41. As far as the pros go it may lessen Nate's advantage. He runs 41 more than anyone, obviously. He Has a lot of scores of .5 or 1 at 43. Now I think there may be several guys who can run 4 at 41when they know 4 is all they have to get. Then they can all get .5 at 43. Just an observation where the 4 ball course may not allow the best to win.

[Wish]

@chris55 your not an average Joe. The fact you follow tournament skiing and know the difference between a 4 ball course and a 6 ball course makes you a fan. So as a fan, you're disappointed at a 4 ball course and rightly so. Joe public on the shore doesn't really understand the difference and certainly has no idea what's going on and it all becomes boring rather quickly. Now place 2 side by side 4 ball courses and run skiers at the same time. Little less sad for you and all the fan base and a whole lot more fun for Joe wouldnt you say?

[John Brooks]

Seems to me the competition should be more about who makes the largest contributions in bringing new skiers to the sport, not about who skies better. I would like to see more publicity about what the pros and BD skiers are doing at the grassroots level to grow the sport, I know that each of them are great skiers. I'm sure for Nautique it is about selling boats, which it should be.

 

During some of the pro am events I have been to, where the pros and BD skiers are teamed up with am's, the look on the am's faces when they see the elite skiers cheering for them is great.

[chris55]

@Wish you are right, I can imagine a parallel slalom like at Rathbun's paradise ...it would be so cool for the public and Joe. But yes, bring it on.....the more good skiers the best for our sport and the waterski industry. I am gonna watch it trough internet.

[jcamp]

How does running parallel slalom courses affect the water conditions? If you have to wait too long for the water to calm down in between passes it might be really off-putting to the crowd. Too much time in between the action.

[RazorRoss3]

I think it would be less than you'd think. A 45 second wait time on a lake that diesbt have a bad roll back would likely be enough and a minute tops.

Would be really cool especially as a split screen boat video webcast. Literally watch the skiers side by side and could compare how skier A and skier B do technique aspect C

[MattP]

@RazorRoss3 Ivanhoe is not known for its good conditions

[chris55]

@jcamp you can ask Chad Scott, he won the Big Dawg Acapulco in April and it was parallel. I don't think it would be an issue but lake Ivanoe is probably to small, I agree

[Wish]

@jcamp it would clear faster then you think and what makes a slalom tournament boring to Joe public is watching the same monotonous single skier do pass after pass after pass all looking the same. And it takes a looooong time to run through the skiers because you're running them one at a time. Use 2 courses and the overall length of the event is cut in half so to speak making up for wait time for lake to clear don't you think? And if Joe public does not understand the monotony of single skier passes, how long do you think he will stand there? How hard is it to understand " last man/women standing wins" ? Bit more exciting even if they never understood a single thing about the sport.. yes? We all want out sport to be marveled by the general public because it is so athletically demanding and challenging. But if they never really get into it and get easily bored with the monotony of single skier passes and line off announcing... they just walk away. So wait a little longer for lake to clear or see Joe public walk away after a few skiers. Which would you pick? Personally knowing this is a show only I would think the skiers and drivers would have a blast with this and the announcer could really hype things up... like; "U.S. vs England...Will Asher from England skiing the far course..Nate Smith from the US skiing the near course...Lets let Nate hear you and get a win for the U.S.!!!!!!!!!!" You think Joe public wouldn't get into that????? vs "Will Asher from England entering the course at 35 off....well that was an easy warm up pass for him...Now back at 38 off...Another easy pass..Now 39...bla bla bla bla bla.... as Joe public scratches their head not seeing any difference and wondering what "line off" means.

 

I know this is off topic somewhat but I disagree with the premise of the Poll itself. It should read..Does the BD add or take away from an event scheduled and placed directly in front of Joe public for the sake of Joe public.. Answer..NO. If this was at a pristine ski site with a 6 ball course, we may have an argument. But the way it is set up, disappointing for true fans and misunderstood/boring for Joe public it simply makes no difference. Why the powers that be cannot see beyond their nose is beyond me. They just blindly do the same thing and expect big results. We will see.

 

You wanna sell more SN boats. Run two down the lake at the same time..how frign cool to Joe public would that be..?

[BRY]

@Wish You asked "Please tell me how this BD addition will get the "some sort of crowd" to come down to the shore". Here's how:

There is a set of people (friends, family, fans, ect.) that will go to a Pro event.

There is a set of people (friends, family, fans, ect.) that will go to a BD event.

Quite a few of these people are part of both sets, but not all. By having the events together you gain the Pro people for the BD who wouldn't normally be at a BD. And by having the events together you gain the BD people for the Pro's who wouldn't normally be at a BD. The overall event is therefore bigger in terms of bodies there than either of the two separately. This is crucial for water skiing as each event separately (in my experience) does not have enough people to justify even a food truck being there (my "crickets" comment in previous post). Hopefully both together will get the critical mass necessary for it to be viable for vendors, sponsors and advertisers. That gives us the food, beer gardens, bouncy house things for kids, money to advertise to general public and so forth that then bring more people. I believe this dynamic to be a good thing so "Having the BigDawgs at the US Open is a GOOD thing." And addresses the OP question directly. But obviously opinions vary.

 

Your points on venue, boredom due to the nature of our sport, confusion as to what's going on/who's winning are valid. I particularly agree with your point on venue and the 4-ball course, as I posted. But, the big but, is these are valid points of concern if it were just a Pro or just a BD. Combining the Pro and BD or not does not change those points.

 

It is off topic from the OP question but I will say again "To turn two premier events into exhibitions is sad though. 4 ball course, really? "

[MattP]

One day @wish will man up and put on his own event at the location in town he likes, run it the way he wants, announce it the want he wants and stop complaining about event formats. :smiley: I just hope he shows up to Jack's & or Ivanhoe this weekend to support the skiers. (He's still a good guy regardless)

[Wish]

@MattP.. what took you so long. I managed to crank off 4 posts without yours popping up. Yes yes, I bitch about this but you know I'm dead on right about this. Proof is in the pudding. Poor attendance year after year after year by Joe public. Why keep sticking it in front of them and running the same recipe for disappointment for most involved is beyond me. Put it back on a real ski lake and set some records or make it a better show. Not complicated and common sense really. Don't have to run my own tournament. The folks that run this one just need to wake up and see the results for what they are. I'm a fan.. I get what's going on and will enjoy being there. @Horton changed the format...everybody LOVED it. Why not this one??

 

@BRY I'm thinkn that is not enough people to justify it's current location for beer, food trucks and the like. ALL those people would go to a pristine sight anyway with a 6 ball course. Plenty to chose from around here. This was shoved in front of the public for publics sake. Pick... a good show or a good record capable event. Powers that be think it's one in the same.. BD makes no difference here.

[BRY]

@Wish You say "I'm thinkn that is not enough people to justify it's current location for beer, food trucks and the like. ALL those people would go to a pristine sight anyway with a 6 ball course. Plenty to chose from around here. This was shoved in front of the public for publics sake." I 100% agree with that. 100%

 

You also state "Pick... a good show or a good record capable event." I disagree. I think it could be a good show and a good record capable event. Think Masters or Moomba but with an ace site. In fact I think if it were a good record capable event it would be a better show. But this 4 ball thing is neither.

 

"Powers that be think it's one in the same.." seems to be the case, doesn't it. So who are the powers that be? How could you, I, the BOS faithful reach them to effect change?

 

"BD makes no difference here" Well we disagree. My rationale is posted above. I think combining the two gets the best we are going to get with what there is. The best bet for getting it bigger so desperation sites aren't used. Best bet to get enough people to justify it's current location for beer, food trucks and the like.

[Wish]

@BRY yes yes yes. Location Location Location would make it a great show and record capable 6 ball course. We used to have tournaments at a site right up the road, 10mn away. It is a great public site affiliated with fair grounds (has paint ball, baseball, volleyball courts/fields, ALL facilities needed, well known, boat ramps, docks.. on and on). That would meet the needs for a 6 ball course and 100% agree with you. I spoke with the an individual high up the CBS chain that's focusing on the public end of this. I asked her if she understood Jump..yes Tick..somewhat Slalom..no clue. And she's running this. I presented the 2 slalom course idea and it was like a lightbulb went off....ohhh I get how that would work. But she isn't coughing up the sponsorship $$s and expecting to sell boats sooooo.. she is stuck with what she has. So it is where it is. And that's where my argument stems from.

[BRY]

@Wish There you go dude. You are already in a very unique position. You have two of the huge hurdles solved, location and access to decision maker. Access to the organizer is the biggest thing. This year is done but you can change it for next year, though probably nothing in it for you but satisfaction.

[Wish]

Well, access to one organizer. She was going to present the idea. Heck, I even contacted Gordan R in hopes he had some video of his side by side 6 ball courses. He said he did but was away from his computer for 2 weeks. Never got back to me even after I emailed a reminder recently. But I think it is the Correct Craft show. I have no access to them other then through her and she wasn't handing over any names or numbers. One would think with the number of BOS readers..someone would know the powers that be and present some kind of change.

[GOODESkier]

I got an invite to ski in the Big Dawg Finals this year (Assuming they are a little under their desired entries). I AM A BIG FAN OF THE BIG DAWG! I am a pretty diehard skier, but here is my 2 cents.

 

Too far away, too little skiing, 4 buoys, Florida critters, I can watch skiing on my tablet for way less.............

 

Now I am a die hard, what about the people that only half care or don't even understand the sport? Why would they even drive 30 minutes? Honestly, this sport is like watching chess! If it wasn't for the businesses that support this sport, it would dry up and go bankrupt (That is my hunch).

[John Brooks]

To me it is kind of like an anchor tenant in a shopping center, you need something big to get people there and the skiing is one of the lesser tenants. Similar to the successful format in Milwaukee. People are going to Milwaukee for all the festivals (the anchor) and the skiing is one of the side shows.

[ozski]

Moomba works for 2 reasons. Jump because the crowd gets it and somebody will have a big crash.. And a convenient location. Jump is a saleable product, slalom is a challenge and its hard to see that ever changing - does not matter how we package it or who skis..

[RazorRoss3]

Summer X Games.

 

Draws huge crowd due to variety of sports

 

Televised

 

Full of other extreme sports so it's the correct, young audience that could grow the sport

 

Would be a great event on the Pro Tour and the BDs could probably still be a part of it

 

I think the two groups together is fine and fun but at a historically Pro event the BDs shouldn't outnumber the Pros. That is not to say they aren't incredibly talented skiers themselves because they are.

 

[bishop8950]

Good for Nautique? The Big Dawg committee chaired by Nautique discussed other options at length and this was the decision.

 

Good for Open Skiers? It would be good if it brought more people but I doubt there will be a significant effect. Bad for Open Skiers if BD dilutes the event? I think it depends on how its organized and presented at the event. At least the BD groupings go first. As for 16 BD skiers on Sat vs 5 pro men, that does sound unbalanced. But, there are so many factors on scheduling within the event window and I dont know the details. I do know multiple options were vetted hard.

 

Good for Big Dawg skiers? Some will say its thrilling to piggy back onto the US Open. Some will be uncomfortable with any possibility of taking attention away from Open skiers at a premier event. All Big Dawg skiers just want a place to host qualifiers and a final to enable a fair competition against each other.

 

Good for fans? Depends on the fan. I think bracketed H2H finals are awesome regardless of the division. Typically the BD finals offers up close match ups which makes it interesting, to me anyway.

 

Prize money bigger for the Big Dawgs? I seriously doubt it and would be shocked. The prize money is always a fraction of the skier entry fees.

 

As a fan I am more interested in the event with BD in it.

As a BD skier I am uncomfortable mixing it with the US Open.

As a Committee Member I know all views and opinions were expressed/discussed/evaluated.

 

Lets see how it goes. I know Nicole and team will be doing their best to host a top notch event for all.

[Chad_Scott]

Its a bad thing in my opinion First of all, the professionals should have a larger purse than the big dawgs After all I am friends with almost all of the open skiers and I know that many of them rely on these events to help support their livelihood With that being said, I would like to see these guys and gals ski for much larger purses and in front of crowds of people. The open skiers should have premier events which spotlight the talents of these athletes. Big Dawg in my opinion should stand alone as well as its own event . There are also some pretty good athletes at this level also. The purse for the big dawg is mainly generated from entries and does not draw from the sponsors supporting the professional events I would like to see as many events as possible to support the open skiers. However I am sure there are reasons beyond the knowledge on this message board for hosting the events together As a fan I am looking forward to both of the events.

[MattP]

Big Dawg purse breakdown from http://nautiquebigdawg.com/rules/

1st – $5,000

2nd – $2,700

3rd – $1,300

4th – $800

5th – $700

6th – $600

7th – $500

8th – $400

 

US Open Breakdown

EventTotal 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th

Men Slalom $10,000 $4,000 $3,000 $1,750 $750 $500

Women Slalom $7,000 $3,000 $1,750 $1,000 $750 $500

Men Tricks $3,000 $1,000 $750 $525 $400 $325

Women Tricks $3,000 $1,000 $750 $525 $400 $325

Men Jump $10,000 $4,000 $3,000 $1,750 $750 $500

Women Jump $7,000 $3,000 $1,750 $1,000 $750 $500

[Wish]

Well, the side by side course may happen. Not this year but next year. Spoke to CBS rep again. Turns out CBS is in charge. She actually sent this pic to the guys that set the course up. I will be speaking more with her. The only pushback is cost for a second course.

 

 

[skidawg]

@MattP -u have the payout down to 8th-must have changed, I made too 8 last year and got donuts, nada-zero!

[MattP]

@skidawg that sucks... I just post the info! Are you heading down this year?

[skidawg]

@MattP - when they changed the rules to make it a two stop average that took me out of contention. I could choose to spend all our ski and travel money on me and the big dawg or take my kidos to multiple tournaments. For me they are much more important than the big dawg (more fun skiing with them also). That is why the BOS format is so awesome. They can participate and have a shot at a placement or some cash and prizes.

[GregDavis]

Hi Matt, Big Dawg has always paid back to 8th place for BD finals. For qualifiers, BD pays back to 4th place. Has always been that way. Greg

[skidawg]

@GregDavis -I finished top 8 last year and received nothing

[skidawg]

@GregDavis at the finals

[ForrestGump]

My opinion, but I'm not crazy about the format. Maybe if the pros got 8 skiers in instead of 5. And maybe if the BD's culled it down to 8 prior. So that you had 8 of each group. Otherwise, BD finals should just be at Nationals like it has been.

[Kelvin]

Spoke to a pro skier this weekend. He was bummed about the format. The Pros get 1 preliminary round and 1 finals round (2 set Max). The Big Dawgs get 2 prelim rounds and a 16 bracket head to head. Much more skiing dedicated to the Big Dawgs compared to the Pros. If the events are going to be combined, the Pros should be the showcase.

[TFIN]

This is without a doubt the biggest oversight by an event organizer in my long career. This is the US Open, formerly (even as recent as 07) the most prestigious event on the calendar. This is a huge disservice to both professional skiers and Masters Men's skiers alike.

First, US Open slalom competitors are being relegated to a watered down side show to the MM. Not by some marketing plan by Nautique, but by sheer laziness. They are looking only to kill two birds with one stone by combining two events that they are feeling obligated to host. With barely a presence in the finals and less prize money than MM, the US Open slalom event is comparibly non existent.

This is beyond insulting and it is aggravating that more skiers are not speaking up. The BD series as it originally existed was great for the sport; now it appears to be a confusing muddled mess. Too many ex pros, too much drama, and a real lack of identity.

The US Open is not the venue for an impromptu pro-am. Florida, the comp ski capital of the world has the real potential to draw avid fans. A US Open with 5 competitors flanked by 16 amateurs is a highly regrettable decision.

Many people have gone to a lot of work to organize these two separate events, and for that we are all greatful. Combining the two however is a no-win scenario for everyone.

 

[MattP]

I think the hard part about understanding this event is that they are actually 2 separate events happening at the same time. The BD has had the same format for years in the finals and the US Open has had the same format for over 20 years when it comes to rounds skied. As for the number that go to the finals BD is always the same but I think the US Open has taken different about of skiers to the finals over the years.

 

There is a committee that includes skiers that help make decisions for the BD. Thats a great idea.

For Pro skiing there is NO committee. The "Pro Tour" are really a handful of separate events around the world. The issue with this is there is NOT a single voice or committee voice that allows the pro skiers to influence their events. These events are how some of the pros make a part of their income. They need a voice!

[Wish]

The true fans, friends and relatives of the skiers, no mater how many, will go anywhere in "..the comp ski capital of the world" as Trent puts it and there are sooooo many sites like that around here. But as long as the powers that be want this event in front of Joe public, this will continue to be a watered down show from the lack of understanding of what this used to be by the organizers themselves. They have no idea what a disappointment this is for the fans, athletes and Joe public...none. And from what I have been told as recently as Friday..this will not change in the forceable. Which is why I'm pushing them for a format or location change (location being more of a compromise). I have their ear. Nothing will change for this year but perhaps next year. Agree with Trent. It was a pleasure to meet him in TX.

[EricKelley]

I think the venue is a "showcase" location for the event. I attended one of the Bud/Mastercraft Pro Tour events at Ivanhoe back in the late 70's or early 80's. It was a great atmosphere for the average fan. They will want to come see the jump event mainly. Jump is what is really cool for the average person.

If waterskiing is to be promoted, location more than good conditions for the skiers is top priority. Rob Shirley understood this and that is one reason why that tour was the most successful one in history. I still have a bunch of them recorded. I need to post one up.

The pros need to realize that adapting to different conditions and formats is an important asset. They need to be prepared to compete in variable and tough conditions for the good of the promotion of the sport and to put food on the table.

As far as the Big Dawg being there, I don't have a particular problem with it but if I were Nautique I would fill in the time necessary with things spectators would really find interesting, like some of the show things like Sea World used to do. I don't think having the Big Dawg there will put more potential Nautique customers on the beach.

[Wish]

@"Eric Kelley" do not think the pros have issue with tough conditions and fully recognize the need for locations near or in a populous area. It's the 4 ball vs 6 ball that is harder for them to swallow along with BD participation. Rob S did not have to deal with either.

[ALPJr]

The Marine World USA tournament back in the 80's and 90's in the SF Bay Area was a 4 ball course. It drew large crowds. Three event pro with other exhibitions, clinics and fund raisers. I think Big Dawg would do better as it's own seperate event.