Collegiate skiing

[dropski]

I love collegiate waterskiing; going to nationals to ski and watch all the other skiers, especially the best, is some of the most fun I've ever had. When a "pro" is out on the water everyone is cheering them on regardless of team, because its awesome to watch. Collegiate skiing is doing great, we don't need rule nazis who aren't even collegiate skiers start over complicating a great thing.

[UWSkier]

Collegiate skiing was the best time of my life even though our site is iced over from late Nov-late Mar. The parties alone... I'm sure they've toned that down since then though... :)

[msuws]

I competed at NCWSA Nationals this year along side @FWinter and many of the other pros from the dirty south. The entire weekend I stood along side some of our new members and watched their faces in awe as skiers took down 39.5off and soared jumps over 170feet. This was their first experience ever seeing skiers of that level and they were in awe. In what other sport can you compete along side athletes of this level and have the announcer yell and get excited whether you're plopping or double cutting off the ramp? Not allowing pros to ski would be a tragedy to the motivation for the growth of our sport. All of us collegiate skiers are competing for the same reason and it sure as hell is not to make money. We love skiing. If you love skiing you should be allowed to ski. Period.

[6balls]

My best friends today are all from my collegiate ski team...maybe enough said??

[JWebSki]

The announcers really made the whole experience a lot better. Competing for a team also adds a whole new level of excitement to a tournament. I think those two things alone would help the sport if implemented into regular AWSA tournaments

[JeffSurdej]

Great topic everyone! In 22 years of being involved in NCWSA I have never heard a skier complain about being in the same division or event as pros. They eat it up and love it. Schools are happier to be in D1 to ski against the pros than to win D2, it has worked out perfect. The key to it all is the team aspect, Miami of Ohio had a jumper not land and it cost the team 250 points, freddy winter running 2.5 @ 41 vs running his opening pass of 32off was worth the same points. EVERY SKIER COUNTS AT ALL LEVELS. Its fantastic. Every single pro skier has come through NCWSA, I can not imagine it without them. These skiers have led universities to give waterskiing scholarships, it's great to see all these skiers be able to get a free education due to their talent. Waterskiing is not like most sports, most skiers are pro before they are college age, it's not a stepping stone like other sports. The pros have to stay in NCWSA. NCWSA membership is up 14% this year. It is working, now we need to figure out how to team ski in AWSA!

[ForrestGump]

I have 4 years of eligibility. I should enroll at Texas A&M.

[thager]

@ShaneH You actually have to go to classes now days.....

[arigold22]

I absolutely agree with everyone that we should keep pros in collegiate water skiing. I skied 5th round for all 3 events last weekend at the 2015 collegiate nationals and it was pretty cool skiing against K.C. and Freddie. Even though I only ran 2 @ 36mph -15 it probably will be the only time I ever get to line up against those guys. And afterwards you get to watch all of these guys put on a show. Wouldn't change a thing about it!

 

Side note* I wish collegiate skiing had 2 trick passes. Gives those skiers who can do more than 20 seconds of tricks a chance to ski to their potential and for those who can't, at least they get another shot to practice those crucial side slides.

[waterskijaye]

@JeffSurdej May I say for all of the D2 teams out there that we have been the ones recruiting new members the most. Pro skiers are a great part of the tournament experience and we all love them at our tournaments however the teams that they usually choose to be on only recruit already existing AWSA members. D2 teams are always recruiting new members. Even college students who have never tried waterskiing before. We recruit so that we can have full traveling teams at tournaments. While being a part of the NCWSA western region I personally have seen a drastic increase in the number of people and the number of teams at not only NCWSA tournaments but AWSA tournaments as well. However, I do believe that scholarships are harder to earn when there are so many skilled pro skiers applying for them.

[Drago]

@JeffSurdej have each state enter a team into nationals-- they decide qualification process

[Onside135]

@ShaneH…I think you will have 5 year rule issues!

[ForrestGump]

Nope. I never spent a day in college. I have four years of eligibility. It's perfect. 45 year old me and college girls. What could go wrong?

 

Seriously though. One of the things that came out of having nationals is that we found one of the local teams really has no coach or mentor. So there's a group of us that are going to start working with them a couple of days a month. One of my buddies is a 200 ft jumper so he got in the boat and provided their jumpers the first real coaching I think they'd ever had. It was cool to see the improvement in just a few jumps.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@ShaneH "...45 year old me and college girls. What could go wrong?" Reality will hit when they start saying:

"You remind me so much of my dad"

"You're 45? Isn't that... like.... almost dead?"

"Your hair is the same color as my grandpa's"

 

Your ego and testosterone levels will never be the same,

 

[LeonL]

@JeffSurdej , I guess Nate is the lone exception to "every single pro skier has come through NCWSA". Also, just why does collegiate tricks only allow one pass? It just encourages doing a bunch of flips to,the detriment of learning toes. I guess flips are more exciting though. The boat has to come back, so it can't be a time saving exercise.

[Kelvin]

@LeonL, it absolutely is a timesaving exercise. Three different boats can go down the lake for a pass then all three can come back simultaneously to get another set of skiers. Collegiate tricks can average 2-3 minutes per skier.

[Horton]

@LeonL this is a terrible reason but ... it has always been that way.

 

In addition to what @Kelvin said above the fact is a the most college trick skiers do not really know enough tricks for one pass.

[RazorRoss3]

Most skiers in college don't have enough tricks for one, and at a 160 skier event having two passes would burn a lot of time at a time of year when you start fighting diminished daylight. I've seen a number of events that run for 12 hours straight trying to stay on pace and early/late day can be challenging lighting conditions either glare, shadow, or the sun isn't there anymore.

[elr]

One pass, no flip limit, tricks is a very different event and has an impact on podium placements. If time needs to be saved maybe two jumps saves move time than one pass trick.

[RazorRoss3]

Most tournaments are 2 earn your 3rd. If have to make at least 1 of your first 2 to get the third.

 

The ability to take 3 skiers down the lake and then have them all come back no skiers is saves an enormous amount of time because no drops on the ends. Honestly if it weren't for the high number of missed openers in slalom it would be nearly impossible to finish some of the tournaments in the Midwest where you're pulling 160 skiers 3 events.

[eleeski]

SS, R fall goes much faster with one pass.

 

But only allowing one pass really sucks for developed skiers. It wouldn't take much more time if you earned the second pass by standing up the first pass (and no set down at the end - like the old days when I started tricking). Teach the kids to stand up and reward consistency and full passes of tricks. Note that stand up passes do require the boat to go back at trick speed with the skier in tow so the rare stand ups would not change the timing of the event much. Of course, I would coach my kids to get the solid tricks done first and go big in the second pass. Might be more fun to watch. And still get done in time.

 

Eric

[skiinxs]

Starting dock at each end of the lake, men at one end women at the other end works great for one pass tricking. No deadheading as you pull a different skier each way.

[RazorRoss3]

@eleeski, it's a good idea but from a scoring perspective (team score) that lends itself to overweighting trick in team score. a team with 4 good truckers would massively out score a team without by an even higher margin than they do already. Unlike earning a third jump where if it's good it replaces an existing score that would be additive. I do like the idea, I'm just not sure it wouldn't have a negative effect on score. Again, generally speaking most college skiers outside of the south don't know enough tricks for 1 run and if they do their second run they would have 2 tricks and then a fall on a flip attempt with the exception of the 5 people who were 3-event before college at any given tournament.

 

@skiinxs, the double start dock works great with men skiing one direction and women skiing the other, 2-3 boats pull mens skiers one way then women's skiers back. Substantial time savings for the big tournaments.

[eleeski]

@RazorRoss3 I'm not sure it would have any effect at all on team scoring. The best trickers are going to win - whether it is in one pass or two. Team scoring goes by placement, not raw scores. Frist place with 5000 points gets the team exactly as many points a first place with 2500 points. The individual satisfaction of getting a score that accurately transfers to traditional tricks will be high. And runs will be designed with at least some relevance to tournaments after school.

 

@skiinxs Having worked countless college trick events, trying to save time with opposite end docks won't work. So many skis are shared (between men and women), enough release people are needed and the team comraderie and support make splitting the events impractical. Tricks now run about as fast as we can shore judge them.

 

Boost wakeboard points back up and encourage kneeboards at 50%.

 

Eric

[RazorRoss3]

If we are talking about allowing scores to transfer effectively, my understanding is that slalom minimum speed is 19 rather than 17 reducing buoy counts by 6 compared to AWSA scores so the 3@-XX NCWSA is 6 less than 3@-XX AWSA. For jump speed is capped at 32 rather than 35 and the ramp is locked at 5ft. If the argument is to allow scores to transfer between AWSA and NCWSA then trick is not the only event we should be talking about.

 

*Dont quote me on the slalom rule, when my score was announced in buoy count it was always 6 below but it may carry over to AWSA with a +6 to make it score correctly.

[eleeski]

While I'm pretty sure there is some score transfer directly from collegiate to the ranking lists, I was actually more concerned with the transfer when the college kid graduates and AWSA is the only game left. Two pass trick goals will help that transfer. The jump and slalom course are the same but the lack of a toe pass will really hurt the competitiveness of a skilled tricker in AWSA.

 

Earn that second pass with a standup first pass and get better prepared for life in the AWSA.

 

Eric

[RazorRoss3]

I can understand that. Although you'd NEED some form of tutorial coaching because many teams have no real coaching and trying to self teach toe tricks will cause countless injuries that take people out of the sport, not keep them in it.

[eleeski]

That's why pros on college teams are a good thing. They are usually pretty good pin persons.

 

Eric

[RazorRoss3]

Very true... you'll find most teams don't have that. My team is lucky to have an "advisor" who is a life time 3 eventer that skier for auburn but almost all of the Midwest teams rely on whoever happens to be the best for coaching which can often be a 600 point tricker. NCWSA would need to put up a number of tutorial videos for driving, pinning, and trick how-to's to avoid serious injury.

[skiinxs]

@eleeski "Having worked countless college trick events, trying to save time with opposite end docks won't work. So many skis are shared (between men and women), enough release people are needed and the team comraderie and support make splitting the events impractical. Tricks now run about as fast as we can shore judge them."

 

We have been doing this for several years and it has really made tricks fly by, which is a huge help in some of the larger tournaments. I agree that it would put a strain on live judging, but when using video and swapping cameras or cards out, the judging can catch up while pulling jump. The skiers seem to be able to work out the ski sharing and release person, as it hasn't been any more of an issue than the "If I fall you have to come back and get my ski" situation that I encounter at sites with only one starting dock.

Dave

[unksskis]

Please don't try to change the collegiate tricking because it may help "transition" someone better into AWSA, most trickers tricked AWSA before and during college, and for those who learn in college, a second pass is just an additional opportunity. If anything, I like the lack of toe tricking in college, it doesn't need to be forced upon people to attempt like in AWSA, and encourages flips. Traditional tricking has it's place, but not in collegiate. The bulk of the people you're speaking on are learning two-ski passes, wakeboard side-slides, and if the team is lucky, they can do a flip on a wakeboard. Changing rules to better meet AWSA initiatives is not what's best for collegiate skiing, and will deter new skiers. Stand up a pass and get another one? So like, if they do all their sideslides without falling, they can do them again? Sounds like Boys/Girls 1

[eleeski]

@unksskis So college kids are only capable of learning 10 tricks? Let's not encourage skiers to learn the fun and different skills needed to fill up another pass? Or incentivise standing up a complete pass? And toe tricks are fun - and impressive at the high levels.

 

Why did the rule get started in the first place? Logistics in getting large numbers of trickers a run - especially when the majority couldn't fill up a pass of tricks. If a process to allow two passes without taking up extra time is found, we should embrace it!

 

@skiinxs Good to hear that the opposite docks technique works for you. We run multiple boats from one end and it goes faster than we can shore judge. After the fact video might be able to go slightly faster (or not) but as the one who gets stuck doing that at our class Cs, that really sucks for the judges (and I can see problems logistically with the cameras, keeping track of the skiers, rerides and the problems which can't be solved the next day - these are very difficult to manage when the events are half the size with lots more time to spend on each individual skier). It does take a lot of effort to spin up every video , even if it is a SS, R fall. I do agree that the higher level skiers are easier to judge on video and that boat video is far superior to the shore video we use to backup shore judging. But those skiers are (too) rare and we seem to do OK with them. Note that I try not to personally ski at shore judged tournaments - double standard?

 

Math geeking: 60 skiers / 3 boats * 20 seconds return time = wasted 7 minutes

10 skiers earning a second pass with a no drop added time of 1 minute = 10 extra minutes

Time wasted removing/installing buoys and arranging judges between events = hmmm.

 

Eric

[unksskis]

I agree toes are fun to watch, and I respect people wanting to do them. I would say learning 10 tricks, if you are brand new to actual tricking like most of the collegiate skiers, is pretty dang good. Expecting a 19 yr old to go from sideslides to toes within even 2-3 years is a lot, considering most are joining for the social/club aspect. What is the harm in having 1 pass in collegiate skiing? It's worked fine, no one really complains except people wanting it to correlate to standard scores (International competitive skiers), and who are used to the traditional 2 passes. Collegiate skiers know what a good college score is, let it be different. It's a throwdown, even elite skiers can go down early. I also think there are a lot of other factors as to why having 1 pass better helps collegiate skiing, and has influenced it's growth. This thread started on whether to include pros in collegiate skiing, to how traditional 3 event can learn a thing or two from NCWSA, to collegiate skiing needs to change to be more like what traditional 3 event does. Collegiate skiing's method is working and sparking interest, maybe instead, we can alter AWSA tricks to two separate events, a hands event, and a toes, and see how the market plays out.

 

I do project that collegiate skiing will have a further division in the future. The top tier will get the pro level recruits, scholarships, be in ski related areas or historical schools, and the remainder (D2) will continue to scrap to put teams together, apply for limited funding, recruit on campus for anyone who wants to join, teach people to ski, introduce them to tournament skiing, make it to some tournaments and represent their school, teach underclassmen what it's all about, and hope the club remains sustainable. Heck, some of the top tier schools are a few Class' from being extinct. And then there's the increase in a separate wakeboard club.

[Broussard]

@eleeski Have you tried to run a collegiate team lately? It's hard enough to get 8+ kids on the water to train for 3 events. Tricks take a lot of time to learn and in collegiate tournaments you will see a lot of two skis, wakeboards, and even kneeboards! People who are not in traditional 3 Event skiing don't give a damn about toes.

[LeonL]

Oops! Opened a can of worms, and I don't even trick!

[eleeski]

I am actively coaching both UCLA and SDSU kids. I try to focus as much as possible on tricks as I have seen tricks as the easiest way to get collegiate points. The kids who start as freshman often end up ready for toes. TB, TF, TS, TWB, TWF, B, F, R, R, WB, WF, O, R is a run that has gotten some excellent placements for dedicated kids after a couple years.

 

I have been working with college kids for a LONG time. Most are complete novices when they start. Many are quite dedicated and talented and improve dramatically. A few more have advanced their trick scores past 1000 points than have run into shortline. Or jumped 100'. After graduation, many have stayed in the sport and are valuable parts of our local scene. Slalom performances have improved. Not enough have kept tricking. I'd like to see that improve.

 

Eric

 

Disclaimer: Socal can have good skiing year around so maybe I get more time coaching the kids. And I do have a passion for tricks so I focus a lot on that.

[RazorRoss3]

Yeah, Midwest gets that winter thing. We get 5.5-6.5 months of boats on the water and the start and finish of that are really cold so tricking isn't everyone's favorite since you can see a lot of falls.

[6balls]

...and with all due respect @eleeski if most teams had you coaching it would be different. The teams that do are fortunate to have your expertise. Midwest teams have no one that can coach trick, or often jump (or have access to one) or slalom other than the better slalom skiers on the team. Toe tricks...no, no. If we can get 5 men and 5 women to do side, side, back, back, 360, 360 as a run it's a huge bonus. 5 ride over's landed...big deal. Make a slalom pass (hell put 'em on jumpers to get it done)...big deal. Put that together with the couple of kids on a team that can crank some points and suddenly you have a competitive team.

[eleeski]

@6balls Thanks. My trickers are stars. I do coach slalom too. And I jump right at the beginning level so I get the rideout issues.

 

It's not that easy. UCSD, whose team I spent a lot of time with and had some great skiers develop, has faded. USD hasn't skied with me for two years. SDSU went for a few years without calling me. Just having a coach available doesn't make the skiers or a team. But it is cool when teams (and individual skiers) grow.

 

Eric

[elr]

Sorry - I have not heard a reasonable argument why a two pass, one fall, no set down trick event as @eleeski suggested cannot be implemented. Why are skiers with enough tricks for two passes disadvantaged because some skiers don't have enough for one? By that logic it should be one pass slalom and jump as well.

[Broussard]

@elr I don't understand your logic with the one jump. Only one of the three jumps are entered into the score books.

[Edbrazil]

 

The non-discrimination vs. "Professionals" may have come from the Way Back when Cypress

Gardens skiers went to Polk Community/Jr. College, or whatever it was, and tended to dominate

the college ranks. Of course, the AWSA has had Rule 3.01 from the getgo.

 

Fortunately, collegiate water skiing never got involved with the NCAA morass. Is someone who

may make around a few thousand in prize money and gets manufacturer freebies, really a

"professional'? You can't raise a family, buy a house, or have a new car at that rate.

 

The whole deal with deciding who a Professional or Amateur will require a whole new level of

bureaucracy. And, what about international skiers from socialist countries, who get government

money? Even the Olympics has had to stop making a discrimination between Amateur vs. Pro.

[elr]

@Broussard the perverted logic I am referring to is that a large percentage of collegiate skiers don't run a pass or land a jump - so make them one pass events like trick to save time. Nothing to do with the score book.

[RazorRoss3]

The best trickers are not disadvantaged by being held to one pass, they are still going to out score everyone else because they have the best tricks.

 

 

[Edbrazil]

Would the original poster on this subject want to disqualify someone who went to an event like

the Malibu open and earned all of something like $250. for the last paying place? And, who is

going to keep track of this? If the money goes to the skier's federation, what about that?

[RazorRoss3]

If professional is taken as meaning you could actually make a living then out sport has no pros in that sense. If the qualifier is "won money" then we have a lot of pros including myself and @mattL, I won all of $47.06 at the BOS cash prize.

 

At the end of the day to tell pros they can't ski is taking the top 5 skiers out so the 6-10th best skiers can be on the podium. Doesn't change or mean a thing for the other several hundred skiers except 11-15th will start saying stop letting 6-10th compete. The talent spread is so wife in collegiate skiing that there are going to be people at the top dramatically better than people at the bottom unless you say that anyone who has ever skied before college can't compete.

 

In addition I have said before that one all star doesn't make a team. You'd rather have 5 average scores than 1 good one as far as team placement and in my experience the team placement was more fun than any individual honors which were simply icing on the cake if you were to receive them.

[elr]

@RazorRoss3 the best slalom and jump skiers would not be disadvantaged with one pass either - they would still win. Trick skiers with similar first and second pass scores are highly disadvantaged in a one pass format - even at the highest levels the placements will change.

[RazorRoss3]

I can see that, particularly if a fall were to occur in pass 1. The price I consistently fall back on is how few skiers have even 1 pass of tricks. I skied collegiate and in 4 years had an 820pt run I believe (side/R,FB-BF/R-R,O/R,WB-WF/R-R) which I stood up a grand total of once and still not out if time fell on a WO attempt. That is good for top 10 in the Midwest meaning at most 9 skiers out of over 100 have the ability to trick two passes so I'm not sure we should change the rule to accommodate those 9, in addition I have never heard a complaint from even the best trickers in the Midwest about the format, they're just happy to be able to be on the water.

[eleeski]

@RazorRoss3 That is good skiing. Congratulations. You are at a high level as a tricker. Ready for two passes. Like in the real world. If we come up with a format that allows you a second pass without taking too much time, your skiing will develop even further. You are still just as unlikely to beat the top skiers but at least you will be working on what you need to get better for the trick format you will see for the rest of your life.

 

We are just trying to work within the current constraints to improve your experience with tricks in the long run.

 

Eric

[RazorRoss3]

@eleeski, thank you for the compliment, I'm actually out of college as of May. The Iowa team hosts an AWSA every summer so I have seen the two pass tourneys but so far I've only used them for A: do the trick I fell on and the tricks after it B: try a front flip if I stood up my run. With limited practice time I tend to dedicate 99% of my sets for slalom. If I find myself in a position where I have more ski time than I can physically use for slalom I plan on working trick done more but I am very fond of my hamstring and may leave toes those more flexible than myself.