A REAL 4 EVENT BOAT CONCEPT

[Dacon62]

We have some great slalom boats out there but our trickers have been left out in the cold.

What if you could have both without sacrificing either.

Am thinking the adjustable plate and hinge, or maybe the whole boat, would need to be made out of aluminum?

Actuators up to drop the back of the hull for a steeper, taller trick wake at slower speeds and maybe a better barefoot wake at higher speeds. Might up the top speed a bit by taking a bit of hook out of it. Down for slalom mode to lower the deadrise and flatten the wakes.

Might make @eleeski happy!?

 

[MISkier]

Innovative. Definitely "out of the box" thinking.

 

How would the spray be with the hull in the down position for slalom? There is a gap between the adjustable hull portions and the main hull that looks like it would channel water somehow.

[ForrestGump]

Lot of design and manufacturing changes for the 23 trickers that are left in the world.

[oldjeep]

Looks like the surf tab system that already exists on half the wake boats currently made. You could buy off the shelf trim tabs meant for runabouts and try it out pretty easily.

 

Edit - ah they extend way forward. Seems overly complex to create the tiny little wake that trick skiers seem to use.

[rodltg2]

Doesn't Nautiques hydro gate pretty much do address this ?

[Horton]

I am with you @ShaneH

 

@rodltg2 Not really. The trick gate actually works backwards from what you are thinking. When you slalom the plate extends down into the water to lift the back of the boat and when you trick the plate is out of the way to let the boat site deeper (or something like that)

[Wolfeie]

Tige has had the Taps systems for years. Problem is with current rules this boat would not pass AWSA rules and be approved for tournament use. With the exception of the hydro gate all hulls have to be static.

[Wish]

Why does CC get an accepptions? If memory serves me one of the reasons the Supra ts6m back in the day was not used in US tournaments is do to the adjustable plate it had.

[Dacon62]

@MISkier - conceptual drawing, tolenrances or design would need to address that.

@ShaneH - LOL...may improve barefoot wake and top speed in raised or partly raised position to appeal to the barefoot crowd not just the 23 trickers as you jested.

@rodltg2 - nothing like the Nautique "Hydro-Brake".

@Wolfeie - nothing like the Tige "T.A.P.S" system as this concept is more than a rebadged trim tab(I know convex hull part of "system). This would allow you to alter the dead rise and therefore the wake shape, planning attitude. AWSA may need to change ruling to allow boat design progression.

@Wish - don't know why Nautique is exempt? May have something to do with the hydro gate only having 2 positions and not variable settings?

I can imagine that there would have been much more incentive to approve Nautiques hydro gate system, already a long established supporter of the sport, than to approve a newer player with the Tige Taps system.

[rab]

If my memory is correct the Nautique is allowed because it only has two positions and other systems have not been allowed because of there being multiple positions.

[Wish]

But even 2 positions is not static.

[oldjeep]

Malibu manual wedge only has 2 positions, is that allowed?

[EricKelley]

I have been thinking for a while that the only way to make a boat excellent at multiple things is to be able to change the shape of the hull. This is easily possible and incredible that no manufacturer has done this. It would be possible to add plates to multiple areas of the hull. The front of the running surface is an important area as well. To design a static hull for multiple events requires engineers to compromise. The hydrogate is a low tech example of changing hull shape but it is significant in effect. Every time I look at mine I cringe looking at 3rd world like engineering. I like the way your thinking Daco. My vision would be smaller separate plates in the front and the back.

[MISkier]

@oldjeep, the newer Malibu Wedge does not lock in the down position. So, it is essentially variable, although its position cannot be selected or altered when the boat is underway.

[oldjeep]

@MISkier The power wedge can be moved any time you like, in fact you can't retract it unless you are moving.

[MISkier]

@oldjeep, so the Power Wedge is adjustable/variable to more than 2 positions? I have the manual Wedge and my boat is a 2009, which had the new version that did not lock in the down position. In fact, we forgot to pull it up once after one of my ski partner's sons wakeboarded. I took my next set into 32 off with it down and never noticed. It seemed to lessen the downforce and must have moved nearly into the "up" position as the speed increased. They may have changed the locking to avoid damage or stress on the hull when left down at higher speed or in the event of a bottom strike with the Wedge in that position.

[oldjeep]

There is the manual wedge which locks down. The floating wedge which goes where ever the heck it wants. And the power wedge that has 5? Positions and it is controlled by a couple electeic actuators that tie into the cruise control presets or can be manually controlled.

 

My last ski day this year I bumped the wedge control while filling the front ballast for skiing. Took forever to figure out why the wake and take off power were so bad;)

 

Edit - and this year the power wedge 2 on some boats which is hydraulic rather than electric.

[jimski]

We just put a 500# fat sack in the back of the 200

[Dacon62]

@"Eric Kelley" -show us what your thinking.

[Horton]

@"Eric Kelley" weight complexity cost

[skiinxs]

@Dacon62 Interesting idea. The leading edge would probably need to be a little higher than the area directly in front of the hinge, creating a step, or it might create negative lift when raised. (Picture an upside down airplane wing cross section). I think this is what happened to the '98 MasterCraft hull making the "winged rudder" necessary and eventually the training wheels applied to the sides which eliminated the upside down wing effect.

 

Here is another idea, pretty simple to implement. A trimmable wing at the bottom of the front tracking fin. Could be nuetral or slightly down for slalom, raise the front of the boat by trimming up for "go fast". Pin the wing at the front to the fin, single outboard power trim ram mounted vertical pinned to the back of the wing through the hull to trim.

[Dacon62]

@skiinxs - discussion similar to your idea.

Agree that the hinge would need to be "hidden" in a step so as not to effect things.

 

http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/comment/103384

[DW]

@Dacon62: the basic change you are accomplishing is changing the deadrise, I think you can accomplish the same goal with just a trim on the outer rear corners which reduces the complexity of creating various sealing joint and perhaps reduces the need for a mechanical hinge. In your example the midship loading on the plates will be pretty high so they will have to be very stiff.

[Dacon62]

Thanks for your comments @DW. Always appreciate your input.

Here are 2 configurations of what I think might work. This may work for trick speeds however the shorter contact time the plate has with the water the less time it has to affect a directional flow change especially at higher (barefoot) speeds. Which configuration would better achieve the desired affect?

 

[GAJ0004]

The Malibu Response Txi is the only boat approved for boat 3 event and barefoot tournaments. I have been told the Malibu is the best one to trick behind. I can't say since I have never been behind one trick skiing, nor the Carbon Pro.

[ALPJr]

I believe this would be approved for 4 events if it was in the tests. http://www.gekkosports.com/#!gtr-22/c1c5r

[Dacon62]

Being "approved" and having a wake that skiers, trickers, jumpers and barefooters will actually all like may not be one in the same. The goal of this variable dead rise hull is to shape a wake that is preferred by these 4 disciplines over static hulls.

The Gecko is an interesting option. Have read somewhere on another thread that the wakes are on the hard side. Cool looking boat but sure low to the water. Looks like it would gobble water over the bow very easily.

[eleeski]

@Dacon62 You are on a very good track! There are many ways to make a great slalom, trick, jump and barefoot boat. Variable hulls can minimize the tradeoffs for each specialty (including wakeboarding). The hydrogate approval is precedent for such a hull. Eventually it will happen. Hopefully before I finish the American Skier mod. Realistically I need to finish so they have a working proof of concept. Or you can do it first. Cool.

 

Eric

[bbirlew]

@eleeski,

Can you tell us any more about your American skier mod?

[DW]

@Dacon62: both ideas have merit, the angled hinge might be simpler with no longitudinal gap. Probably would have to test both ideas to determine best option and to set up the test with a few other options to evaluate. Wake simulation is a very difficult proposition, not a lot of wake simulation software available and none geared towards our sport(s).

[dchristman]

@eleeski Why do you want to mess up a perfectly good trick boat!?

[ALPJr]

Hard, maybe, wonder how it would do in major tourney these days? Would it slow down Nate or Will or Freddy or Regina or Whitney or Nellie? Or any new skiers at slower speeds?

[rodltg2]

@Dacon62 kind of like this ?

 

 

[eleeski]

@dchristman The spray is brutal for shortline. It's the slalom wake I'm working on with no compromises for the trick wake.

 

@bbirlew Life has been busy. I'll get pictures when the project actually gets somewhere.

 

@oldjeep The wedge or other trim plates didn't make a big enough difference to make the new Mastercraft or a Centurion trick wakes good (my research, observation of the wedge effects and "unbiased" opinion). Plus the shape of the wakes is not affected by wedges so a big flat wake is just a big crappy wake.

 

The wake research to optimize trick wakes frankly doesn't exist. Partly the horrible attitude of @ShaneH and the myopic fools who thumbs-up his post. Partly the costs in a sport that can barely afford to develop new boats. Partly that wakes like the American Skier or the MC Prostar 197 are very workable. Perhaps the measure is one of those wakes.

 

Eric

[Dacon62]

@rodltg2 - kinda, sorta like that just mounted on the rear corners not the middle of the transom.

[rodltg2]

The g23 I believe is unique as it is recessed into the hull and flush with the stern. Everyone else's attitude plates / trim tabs extend off the stern.

[rodltg2]

 

[rodltg2]

Came across this one. Another manufacturing who utilizes recessed trim tab.

 

 

[lpskier]

I have actuators on my Ski Nautique. Notice I said SN, not Nautique. It's a 1964. The hull was repowered by a prior owner and the trim tabs are there to stop the boat from porpoising. No problems with a nice wake for tricking. In fact, it has a nice big trick wake at all speeds.

[Dacon62]

Interesting...both the plates in the pictures appear to function by pressing down on the water when extended in any way. When fully retracted they present a normal/flat profile just as if they were not there and the manufacturer had filled that area with fiberglass. The reverse (kind of) is the case for my examples. When the plates are extended the hull presents a normal running profile to the water (for flat wakes) but when retracted they would allow the rear of the boat to sink deeper into the water. Different objective.

[Dacon62]

 

Refined the concept to what I think might be close to achieving the goals of ideal wakes for all disciplines.

Plate configurations would be adjusted something like this...

 

Slalom/Jump configuration- side plates down,rear plate flat.

 

Trick/Wakeboarding configuration- side plates up, rear plate flat or up slightly.

 

Barefoot configuration- side plates up, rear plate down slightly.

 

Getting closer @eleeski @DW ?

[VONMAN]

Back in the day, 1988. There were two boats that were certified 4 event boats. American Skier had one. And the Ski Centurion Bare Foot Warrior. I know I had one, and still have a 92 Warrior

[rodltg2]

isn't the 197 certified for 5 events ?