Hermon Munster Fogman set up.

[oldmanskier]

It is winter, I cannot ski and am very bored. Thought I would share my binding set up which is somewhat unusual. If I did not use this set up I could not even attempt the slalom course due to ankle pain. I call this Hermon Munster (Snow Ski Boots) Fogman setup. I am bone on bone and very arthritic in my left ankle (front). This is the only set up I found that are high enough and stiff enough to keep my ankle locked down enough to let me ski with out to much pain. I can run 28 off at 32 mph in these. Took me a season to get to that in these very stiff boots. I only went to these as a last resort and do not recommend this unless a person needs the ankle very immobile to ski and due to long learning curve at least for me. They are very difficult to do deep water starts and off side turn is very hard to get ski and boots tuned too. I am sure others have tried snow ski boots for water skiing but I have never seen it. The guy I ski with has this set up also due to a very severe foot fracture some years ago. He can run into 35 off at 34 mph on good days. It may rip my leg off but my ankle will be intact.

Oldman skier.

 

[lpskier]

Duel lock with a G10 plate, Fogman release units and snow ski boots. What could possibly go wrong?

[thager]

Definitely needs more holes!

 

[oldjeep]

What are those, old raichle boots?

 

The lack of angle on the rear is interesting, how does it impact your knees? I had the bindings on my skwal setup like that until i tried to spend more than a couple minutes locked in.

[thager]

I always thought a light weight set of Scotts USA boots would work well.

[lpskier]

@thager Well, Daleboot makes the Fogman liner.

[oldjeep]

Well sort of. Intuition makes liners for daleboot and many others.

[oldmanskier]

oldjeep: They are an old set of Dalbello Krypton Rampage snow ski boots I got for $25 on ebay. At this time I use snow ski boot liners but I am looking into Intuition liners due to they do not soak up water like regular snow ski boots. The holes in the toes are so I can get to the bolts that attach boots to plate. The boots have been trimmed in back to allow more flex so I can stand upright and not have my knees canted so far forward. Before I did the trimming it was very uncomfortable on the knees.

lpskier: They have released every time a took a fall. The dual lock is 250 & 400. It is not coming loose. The release is all with the Fogman releases. I AM NOT SUGGESTING ANYONE USE THIS SET UP. In my case with my ankle the only thing they can do is an ankle replacement or a fusion. If I do that no more skiing. For now this allows me a few more years of skiing. NO boot is 100% safe so we all choose the best option for our individual needs. This set up will never allow me to ski into 38 occasionally like I use to. But it does allow me to keep skiing even if it is only 32 mph at 28 off. I am just an old man that wants to keep skiing as long as possible. Thanks for all the comments.

 

[parkerc2112]

Broke my ankle using ho animals last year. Bit the bullet bought reflex super shell /rtype rear. Could of bought a new boat with all the medical bill/time off work.

I'm a 34/28off

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Its great to see people adapt what they need to stay on the water. In my experience, the restriction of movement in the rear boot has a huge effect on how the ski behaves. The first time I tried a full rear hardshell I couldn't do a deep water start. If you can trim and loosen the rear cuff as much as your ankle can stand, it will make the ski much more predictable.

[thager]

@oldmanskier I was thinking more holes to lighten it up some.

[oldjeep]

@thager Question - why would weight matter? Never understood why waterskiers care how much ski and binding weighs, snow guys certainly don't and ours actually leave the ground.

[thager]

I can't ski if I drown!! Also, I have experimented a bit myself in the past. One experiment is still on the bottom of the lake.

 

[oldjeep]

Well, you can pretty well guarantee that a ski boot isn't coming off your foot unless you snap your leg clean off. Guess it is an argument for a real life jacket ;)

[Wish]

Not sure how or if it releases but I think this is an Okee skier

 

 

[oldjeep]

Holy crap. Bomber bindings? They don't release - ever. Unless that plate is velcroed on then something would have to break. This is the set on my Skwal

 

http://oldjeep.com/images/SkiStuff/WP_20150618_002.jpg

 

 

[Wish]

@oldmanskier I agree with @Bruce_Butterfield ...whatever it takes!! I have what would be considered the stiffest cuffed hard shells of anyone skiing today. My only suggestion would be to add a 1/2" lift, maybe more, to the heel of the rear boot. That way you don't have to cut down the cuff or at least not as much if that's a direction you take.

 

[Waternut]

Am I missing something? Everyone talks about how much safer and more advanced snow ski bindings are over waterski bindings. So if you're using snow ski boots, why on earth wouldn't you use snow ski bindings? Could use just a single binding for the front of the front boot and rear of the rear boot and then just keep the boots locked together.

[oldjeep]

Those scary old Silveretta touring bindings that some of you guys use are obsolete snow ski bindings

 

Modern ski bindings are designed for more dramatic impacts. If you turned them down low enough so that they would release vertically in a water crash then they would be releasing rotationally or diagonally constantly. There is also the water and contamination issue - they are made to work in a very clean environment, snow. lake water is dirty and could jam stuff up.

[liquid d]

Oldmanskier, Bruce B is right on the money about the back boot. The rear is one that must be able to bend. I've been through every setup known to man through the years. My front is duct taped up to the max for ...? a lot of years! The rear is the one that can get you in the right position. The forward ankle is in a press forward position, and stays there. You'll get used to it and have many years left...good luck!

[oldmanskier]

Thanks for all the great comments and discussion. Bruce and Wish thanks for the encouragement to do what it takes to keep skiing.

oldjeep I like the logical way you comment on different discussions. To the point and very informative.

Just wanted to give my ski buddy Bob (helped me set up this binding system) and PBT training center Chet Raley and Noah a special thanks for being willing coach me using this set up. I could not make a complete pass on this set up until I skied with Chet & Noah this past June. They got me to running a complete pass the first set I skied and by the end of the week was making back to back passes at 28 off 32 mph using this binding set up.

It had been 4 years since I completed a pass due to various surgeries on my ankle/foot and trying to find a binding set up that would keep ankle pain in check enough to ski the course. The rush of completing a pass again after just free skiing for a few years was great. Thanks again for all the great discussion and comments. Makes a dreary, rainy day in Chattanooga TN a lot less boring.

[block]

You go Fu! Can't wait for skiing weather.

[Edbrazil]

The ski boot stuff is sure interesting to follow. Maybe some day soon, I will be able to get

back on the water. Hip operations on both sides. Back-back when, I placed 3rd in Men

Jumping in the 1969 Eastern Regionals with Lange Standard boots and Nevada bindings.

The setup pretty much freaked out the officials.

Very little-known trivia besides that: who was in 4th place? Bruce Jenner.

[mmosley899]

@oldmanskier glad you and Bob are still at it! If I can be any help with your boot setup or with trying other boots/shells let me know. Come ski with us some time, Jerry has been down a couple of times.

[Fehlindra]

Oldmanskier I've used the FT setup above that Wish added, this season was an experiment had an issue body related i wanted to solve with the project but now its not me. I maybe can help you after all tries and error I've done this summer. i started with the same as you two Fulltilt boots Intuitionsliners the shell had an tongue that allowed me to flex forward but with resistance that u can change, i clamped the boot into an non release binding and of we go! deepwaterstarts almost impossible! manage to get up after 10 or more attempts experienced rly nice offsides and first time in my life a felt the term smear /slide that Rossi, Jay and others talk about. but with two mounted hard-shells i had hard time to initiate turn on my good side. with regular bindings when u lean forward over the ski u bend/raise your back foot ankle but with this setup when u try move forward with the rear leg and hip the only thing you bend is the whole tail of ski i think that caused an massive increase of the ski rocker that led to the easy offside smear /slide ! later i changed to radar vapor boot back on the non release binding that solved deepwater start and problem to initiate some turns espec on my good side. but now to other issues with our setups spec mine , my foot is 1,7 inch above the ski +the thickness of the intuition liner imagine that u stand on skyscrape and your ski is on the bottom of the scrape to get your ski on edge u must first lean the "scrape" that is like an lever arm very slow pre turns and hard to get the ski fast on edge. i tried to bolt the boot direct to the sequence plate yes it was better but still very slow edge change and hard to get on edge, i planned to trim down the boot to an thin layer so i almost stand on the sequence plate with the intuition liners and mold an slim carbonfibre construction around the boot so i have something to anchor the boot into the plate with, alternative was some modified reflex system but then i don't know if the boot lose its form cos of the weak/half open botom of the boot. later on i removed the upper cuff and trimmed down sidewalls just above the ankle my skiing was improved after that. But you cant do that at least not remove the upper cuff then u lose the ability of the boot that helps u out with your injury so my tips to you keep your front boot or try to get an full tilt boot same as mine but trim down the botton of the boot to almost nothing or open botom and on someway solve how you shall attach the boot to the skiplate and sugest that u use an soft boot back /rtp max an softer regular hardshell reflex or other brands. Happy new year and gl next season with your sking and confiurations.

[Fehlindra]

BTW have an new setup for next year thnx Eddie R

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@Edbrazil careful or Horton will ban you for talking politics:) I know Jenner was a competitive skier before he/she/it was a decathlon gold medalist, but wasn't sure about region or what level he/she/it really attained.

 

Good trivia even if it does boggle the mind.

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield Ban you (for some reason )

[Edbrazil]

One year, Jenner won Mens overall at the Eastern Regionals. Somewhere around 1970.

At one time, he was torn between having a go as a Cypress Gardens skier, or going back

to college and being on the track team. I think he started out as a pole vaulter before

becoming a decathlete. He participated in the 1972 Munich Olympics with a respectable

performance, before putting in another 4 years of training and winning in 1976.

[oldmanskier]

Mmosley: Thanks for the invite. Hopefully Bob and I can come up in the spring. Been years since I skied at Whitestone. Whitestone is special to me in that that is the first place I ever qualified for Regionals back in 2000 I think. I saw video the other day of Whitestone. From all the rain we have had it appears you have a lot of flooding. Hope everything stays in place.

 

Bruce, Wish, Liquid d and Fehlindra: Thanks for sharing your trial and error research. My issue is the offside turn. My onside turn is as good on my set up as any boot system I have ever used. I agree the back boot adjustments are the key to getting consistent turns. I have it set up where it is not as tight and flexes to the point I can stand tall on the ski. It also allows my heel to rise somewhat but not to the point my back foot could ever come out. I had thought about cutting the back binding cuff down and after hearing your comments if I decide I want to ski shorter than 28 I may give it a try. My goal last season was to ski complete 28 off passes at 32 mph. It had been so long since I skied complete passes I really enjoyed skiing multiple 28 off/32 mph passes this past summer. I had forgot how addictive the rhythm of a smooth clean pass can be. My goal this season is to ease back into 34 mph and be able to run 28 and possibly 32 off passes at 34. I plan on going to Chet’s a time or two this season to hopefully he can help me achieve this goal.

 

Ed thanks for the ski history details. I love to hear those old stories. I started skiing in 1974 so I know who a lot of the people are you mention. Had no idea Jenner was a water skier at one time.

 

Thanks again to everyone for all your comments, stories and suggestions.

Oldmanskier.

Uh on second thought my birthday is this Sunday so even oldermanskier.

 

[Adam Caldwell]

Can we see some video of these snow ski bindings in action?

[oldmanskier]

Not for sure if I still have any on the phone from last summer or not. I will have to check. If not I will get some this coming season and post. Thanks.

[mmosley899]

@oldmanskier what you have done so far with your rear boot should be headed in the right direction. Usually the next problem is with lateral stiffness, lowering the height of the cuff may help, but lowering the height of the inner shell above the cuff bolt will reduce the lateral stiffness and reduce the excess sensitivity to lateral movement of the rear leg. Of course only if that does not compromise the support of your ankle. And I use the Intuition liners. If the Aqua liner is not thick enough, try the Denali liner from Intuition. Obviously you have adjusted to the increased height of the boot off the surface of the ski, but that also makes the side to side movement more sensitive. If you can lower that height, it might also help.

 

[Horton]

Water skiing is a dangerous sport. There is risk of injury with any and all binding systems. Commercially manufactured bindings do not remove all risk but these systems were conceived by professionals.

 

If you choose to use homemade bindings or a binding system in a way that it was not intended and you get tragically injured it is your own damn fault. I am personally concerned that less advanced or knowledgeable skiers will read this thread and be injured as a result.

 

If you break your legs you can attempt to sue BallOfSpray but there are no assets to be had. (I am currently upside-down on 3 mortgages.)

[oldmanskier]

Horton: I just want to say thank you for all the work you do on ballofspray. Best website going for waterskiing in my opinion.

My post to ballofspray:

I did not intend or recommend for anyone to try my set up. I indicated this in one of my posts. This is the only set up that allows me to ski with my ankle issue. I would never hold anyone responsible for an injury that occurred from the current binding set up I use. If I did that would make me like these lowlifes that sue restaurants for spilling hot coffee in their laps. It is all on me. I agree with you that 99% of the ski world should use commercially researched systems. But none exist for my particular ankle issue at this time. My orthopedic surgeon (two surgeries and counting so far) says my ankle is the worst he has seen and still be able to walk somewhat normally. He does not want me to ski but I am not ready to give it up. I showed my surgeon (he is a snow ski guy) my boot setup. His words were “that should protect your ankle ok but the knee may take a beating”. I still got good knees so we will see. If I do not use this system (only one I have found that immobilizes the front ankle) my skiing days are done. I fully except this risk so I can continue to ski.

Your web site for waterskiing is the best and I would not want to be the cause of a law suit against ballofspray.

If my post is causing you any kind of issue that might negatively affect ballofspray please remove it ASAP. I fully understand your concerns. Any future posts I do on waterski equipment will be only on current available commercial equipment (none on my homemade endeavors or research).

You have a great website and I greatly appreciate all the work you do to keep it going. Hope you are fully recovered from your injury. I really miss your ski reviews. Thanks again for all you do on ballofspray. Please do not ban me from the site.

oldmanskier

 

[lpskier]

Anyone besides Jennifer LaPoint skiing on a replaced ankle? I'm thinking I have to pull the trigger. 

[oldmanskier]

lpskier: Ortho Doctors that specialize in ankle replacements in my area said not to ski with an ankle replacement. A bad fall could really damage the joint and be difficult to repair. According to the ones I talked too the current ankle replacement joints are great for resolving pain but only good for moderate physical activity (hiking, moderate cardio workouts, ETC). They told me if I insist on still skiing (and I do) a ankle fusion would be the better option. I have done neither option due too I can still tolerate the pain and walk ok most days. That is just what I have been told. A person that has had an actual ankle replacement and is a water skier could give much better information than I.

Currently I do use a Snow ski boot on a MOB plate release system that locks my ankle down for the most part so I have very little forward or backward ankle motion. This reduces my ankle pain so I can still ski. 

Hope you get more information on the skiing with ankle replacement. I would like to know about this as well.

Tom Smothers (oldmanskier) 

[S1Pitts]

I have been dealing with an ankle I broke 20 yrs ago. My ortho told me the same that the current ankle systems would not hold up to water skiing, Last thing he said, "when you retire from skiing come and see me."

[MDB1056]

 @S1PittsTell him you’ll be dead then. No need to see him 

[Jody_Seal]

cut the foot off ... go bionic!

[BraceMaker]

On 2/19/2023 at 6:55 AM, Jody_Seal said:

cut the foot off ... go bionic!

I'll say if anyone wants to do that I would just have their prosthetist bolt a pylon adapter right onto a MOB plate and snap it into the ski @mmosley899

 

[mmosley899]

I can work with a lot of stuff…
 

[Skoot1123]

That might need to be the post of the year @mmosley899  That is fantastic!