Baller oldmanskier Posted May 16, 2016 Baller Share Posted May 16, 2016 I am one of the owners (10 owners in all) of a private ski lake (No Wake Lake) in the Chattanooga Tenn. area. The Lake is for 3 event skiing (we have a jump) and is built in a flood plain. No homes can be built on the property. I have noticed our lake liability insurance has gone up considerably over the last few years. It is now around $5300 for liability insurance for our lake. Questions: I was curious what others were paying around the country private ski lake liability insurance? What insurance company’s would you recommend for private ski lake liability insurance? Thanks oldmanskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller oldmanskier Posted May 16, 2016 Author Baller Share Posted May 16, 2016 Revised wording on questions asked: Questions: I was curious what others were paying around the country for private ski lake liability insurance? What insurance company’s would you recommend for private ski lake liability insurance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ The_MS Posted May 16, 2016 Baller_ Share Posted May 16, 2016 I would like to hear some stories about lawsuits and how they fared with any of these companies. What type of accidents or misdoings do these policies cover? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ MISkier Posted May 16, 2016 Baller_ Share Posted May 16, 2016 I have seen it as low as $750. The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted May 16, 2016 Baller_ Share Posted May 16, 2016 SPORTSINSURANCE.com Call Wayne Feinberg at (518) 891-2020 for a quote. You will be stunned at how much you will save. #iskiconnelly Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ The_MS Posted May 16, 2016 Baller_ Share Posted May 16, 2016 @oldmanskier What type of liability protection are you looking for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
block Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 Call Jeni at Paramount Insurance Co.,(423-337-5092). She would love to work with you or anyone else needing specialized insurance products. I think she can save you some money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller oldmanskier Posted May 16, 2016 Author Baller Share Posted May 16, 2016 Thanks for the comments. I am gathering information now for the insurance we have now and what it covers. Once I have this I will contact the suggested insurance representatives for a quote. oldmanskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller EricKelley Posted May 17, 2016 Baller Share Posted May 17, 2016 Sportsinsurance about 2500/yr. Required waiver. Seems to be pretty good. One Lake with jump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller LeonL Posted May 17, 2016 Baller Share Posted May 17, 2016 @oldmanskier I have to ask, why do you need liability insurance? Do you have others who ski there besides the ten owners? (Not considering tournaments) If so, do you charge them a fee? If you charge a fee for others, then you need it. If you don't charge you're protected by a Federal Act, I'll get the exact name and edit this later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller oldmanskier Posted May 17, 2016 Author Baller Share Posted May 17, 2016 Leonl thanks for the information. We (the owners) lease the lake to a ski club. We do charge membership fee's to be in the ski club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller LeonL Posted May 17, 2016 Baller Share Posted May 17, 2016 I can't find the Federal Act right now. You may want look at TN Statue 70-7-101 and 11-10-101 anyway. My suggestion is that the ten owners form an LLC and use that as the leasing agency. None of the owners should be members or officers in the ski club. Distance yourself from the potential liability as much as is reasonable and forget insurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller oldmanskier Posted May 17, 2016 Author Baller Share Posted May 17, 2016 MS: Our current policy with Global Marine for a premium of 5,237.00 consists of: I. LIMIT OF LIABILITY: A. Limit each Occurrence including Supplementary Payments: $1,000,000 , Combined Single Limit B. Products Hazard or Completed Operations Hazard or with respect to liability arising out of independent contractors Aggregate Limit: $1,000,000 C. Personal Injury and Advertising Injury Aggregate Limit: $1,000,000 D. Fire Damage Liability Limit: $50,000 ANY ONE FIRE E. Premises Medical Payments Limit: Excluded ANY ONE PERSON F. General Aggregate Limit (Other Than Products-Completed Operations) $2,000,000 Combined Single Limit. COMBINED SINGLE LIMIT: It is understood and agreed that in the event of an occurrence involving more than one policy form, section, or endorsement, the maximum limit of liability under this Policy for any one occurrence shall not exceed $1,000,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted May 17, 2016 Baller_ Share Posted May 17, 2016 @LeonL I disagree with you here. Although forming an LLC is a good idea, it is not a substitute for liability insurance. Insurance through USAWS is a PITA, requiring a sanctioned event (even for practice), a trained driver (two trained drivers if the driver plans to ski) and a safety person (ditto if the safety guy wants to ski). SPORTSINSURANCE.com requires a waiver and provides the same limits of liability noted above for (probably, I'm not the underwriter) less than a quarter of the premium paid by @oldmanskier, maybe a little more if they have a jump or a claims history. #iskiconnelly Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ The_MS Posted May 17, 2016 Baller_ Share Posted May 17, 2016 So if someone walks down to the lake and drowns, would the SPORTSINSURANCE defend that? I would like to hear some stories about what kind of incidents happened and results of lawsuits. The USA insurance only covers medical out and beyond what the injured person has. The boat policy has liability if your boat is involved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted May 18, 2016 Baller_ Share Posted May 18, 2016 @MS I don't have a policy in front of me to read, but if I were an insured lake owner, I would expect coverage in that situation. #iskiconnelly Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
block Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 Just a heads up; If it is a 10 member club and not the lake owners that you are insuring, it is a different animal to underwrite . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneFeinberg Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 Unless there are losses, it is not difficult to underwrite or insure the 10 person club. I take applications and insure them all the time. Generally, the owner of the lake does not get insurance unless they are also doing the watersport activity. It is common to name the lake owner as additional insured under the club's policy to extend the liability of the club to the owner. The Sportsinsurance.com policy has two components, accident medical and general liability. Feel free to call 518-891-2020 and ask for Wayne Feinberg and I can go over coverages and work up a free quote. I can also be reached by email at topbroker@roadrunner.com if that is easier. I am not on Ball of Spray very often but can try to respond to questions through this blog also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jdarwin Posted May 18, 2016 Baller Share Posted May 18, 2016 The tort laws differ from state to state. In Louisiana, if someone comes onto my property uninvited, falls into my lake and drowns, he's SOL. The laws in Louisiana were modified some years ago to protect the timber industry from frivolous lawsuits brought by trespassers. Also, there are certainly ways of setting up the corporate structure of your lake to insulate the owners from liability. Insurance is an instrument to transfer risk. The lower the risk, the lower the insurance premium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Lovell Posted May 20, 2016 Baller Share Posted May 20, 2016 I practice law in California and commonly defend personal injury cases involving towed water sports and other recreational activities. I have also defended these sorts of cases in A variety of other jurisdictions throughout the country. While there are numerous laws that may protect lake owners in the event of an accident, Relying on these laws or a creative corporate structure as a potential liability shield without being properly insured is almost always a mistake. A lakeowner should purchase as much insurance as they can reasonably afford and should also take a variety of other steps to make sure they are not unnecessarily placing themselves at risk. I could go on and on about this topic.... But I don't want bore everyone to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted May 20, 2016 Baller_ Share Posted May 20, 2016 @Lovell Exactly. #iskiconney Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller liquid d Posted May 20, 2016 Baller Share Posted May 20, 2016 10 owners makes it currently only $500 per owner. Shop the policy and maybe get to $400 per owner....doesn't sound like much for the peaceful sleep you'll get knowing you're covered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ The_MS Posted May 20, 2016 Baller_ Share Posted May 20, 2016 Add that to the true cost of a ski set and its a wonder ski sets are what they are. So if the same exact accident happens on public water, what happens? I dont hate lawyers but I do hate lawyers that go searching for other peoples money. Make America great again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Lovell Posted May 21, 2016 Baller Share Posted May 21, 2016 @MS great question. The answer re public water is it depends on the scenario and the type of public waterway(ie interstate lake or river, navigable waterway, landlocked lake etc) and the type of public entity involved. It also frankly depends on The nature of the activity and quite frequently nature and level of the insurance involved. But I think you hit the nail on the head re other's people's money. If you are unlucky enough to be sued as a boater, lakeowner, homeowner, car operator, etc., if you are properly insured your insurance carrier should pay for your defense in most lawsuits and indemnify you(pay any judgment or settlement). Without insurance, you are on your own... Which is not good Gotta love America....you can sue anybody for anything at anytime. It does not mean you will win, but your insurance premium is worth the piece of mind.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller LeonL Posted May 21, 2016 Baller Share Posted May 21, 2016 @Lovell , since you stated that you practice law I have a question. Does the signing of a waiver of liability amount to squat when it comes down to lawsuit time? Insurance or not. I've heard that when you get to court, they're worthless. Or is that dependent on the court, or state, or??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Lovell Posted May 21, 2016 Baller Share Posted May 21, 2016 @LeonL again it depends. The answer varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction as well. Generally, a well drafted waiver signed under the right circumstances can be very beneficial in defeating a claim. On the other hand a waiver without the right language signed under the wrong circumstances might not be helpful at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller kdeupser Posted May 21, 2016 Baller Share Posted May 21, 2016 @oldmanskier I've been a member of the Atlanta Waterski Club and other's around here for a long time. You need to speak with a certain Carey Z. from the Whitestone club. We had a crazy member go up to Whitestone and ski, then run into the turn island and messed herself up a good bit. Thank God Whitestone had good insurance. She was an absolute BUTT about it and sued them even though it was her fault and she was an AWSA member. It was ugly! Also, one time at our Rome, Ga club(Seven Hills, long since closed) we had a barefooter flair out from the boat to far and ran into the dock. Again, we had good insurance. Stay insured for sure. Stuff happens..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller oldmanskier Posted May 24, 2016 Author Baller Share Posted May 24, 2016 kdupser: I have skied at Whitestone a lot in years past. I know the situation you are referring too. I know Cary Z very well. He helped me in my boat driving endeavors. We will always have insurance. I am just trying to get the best price for the same coverage. Current Status: Requested two quotes from: Jeni at Paramount Insurance Co. Jeni's company does not write insurance in Georgia. Our lake is in Georgia just across the Tenn line so we were out of luck using Paramount. Got a quote from Wayne Feinberg at Sportsinsurance. Com. Sportsinsurance. Com was way cheaper than our current Global Marine policy. Our current Policy and Sportsinsurance.com proposal appear to be the same coverage with Sportsinsuranc.com having slightly better coverage. Sportsinsurance.com does require a everyone that skies at site sign a waiver and certain exclusions like no inflatables can be pulled or trampolines. Or club has no issue with that. Owners at our lake are reviewing now and hope to make a decision soon. Question: Anyone have a good example of a waver they are willing to share? Thanks for everyone’s comments on this subject. oldmanskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted May 25, 2016 Baller_ Share Posted May 25, 2016 @Mark_Matis @oldmanskier I notice that the Stillwater release form is copyrighted. #iskiconnelly #iwritereleases Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Fast351 Posted May 25, 2016 Baller Share Posted May 25, 2016 You have any local gun clubs around? Ask them who they use for insurance. I shoot action shooting sports (3 gun, pistol, etc) and there are several clubs involved. Usually there is an organizing club, and a range (which also has members). You usually sign two waivers, one for the organizing club and one for the range. Generally they're good for a year. I seem to remember that the insurance for the organizing club was $5K per year and we had around 20 events per year in something I'd think as a risk would be more expensive to insure than skiing (although the likeliness of injury is much lower, the severeness of said injury is probably higher). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller kdeupser Posted May 26, 2016 Baller Share Posted May 26, 2016 @oldmanskier, glad to hear. I've skied your lake some in the past. LOVE the place! Something about the water there at No Wake...I always ski good there, we used to always ski your tournament. Haven't skied there in about 5 or 10 years now. Miss that place. Good to hear you all are still at it, I work in Dalton, but live further south. It's about a 2 hour drive or we would have joined. Good Luck, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller oldmanskier Posted June 22, 2016 Author Baller Share Posted June 22, 2016 Our Club went with SPORTSINSURANCE.com. I and other club members did a line by line comparison on our current Global Marine policy and the Sportsinsurance.com policy. The policies were very similar with Sportsinsurance having slightly better coverage. Our current Global policy premium was $5,200 for 12 months coverage. We got the same coverage from Sportsinsurance for $1,280 for 12 months coverage. A savings of around $3,900. If you are considering changing insurance Give Wayne Feinberg a call at (518) 891-2020 for a Sportsinsurance.com quote. oldmanskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller oldmanskier Posted June 22, 2016 Author Baller Share Posted June 22, 2016 Our Club went with SPORTSINSURANCE.com. I and other club members did a line by line comparison on our current Global Marine policy and the Sportsinsurance.com policy. The policies were very similar with Sportsinsurance having slightly better coverage. Our current Global policy premium was $5,200 for 12 months coverage. We got the same coverage from Sportsinsurance for $1,280 for 12 months coverage. A savings of around $3,900. If you are considering changing insurance Give Wayne Feinberg a call at (518) 891-2020 for a Sportsinsurance.com quote. oldmanskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller LeonL Posted June 23, 2016 Baller Share Posted June 23, 2016 WOW! What a savings. I'm glad you found an affordable policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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