Juniors tournament scoring

[harddock]

This weekend I hear that a junior at the end of his pass can elect to go up in speed or shorten the line. No longer does one have to reach max division speed before shortening. I have no objection but can someone explain the scoring. If you are a boys 3 and normally would get to 36 before going to 22 off you can now do it @ 32 or 34. If you ran 28 off 32 mph what would your score be? Would it be the same as 28 off @ 36? or ?

 

 

Something eles I was made aware of was that if you miss the entrance gate on your first run and still ski the full course and complete your next pass you score all the points. If you don't ski the course or do not make the second 6 you score 0! My boy learned that one the hard way. Missed the gate and thought he was done!

[Drago]

You should read the rule book. There is a scoring chart that will clarify scores. Basically going up in speed or shortening =6 buoys .

(6 @ 30 mph ,22 off

= 6@32 mph, 15 off

= 6@28,28 off

There is also a "summary of changes" every year you can check out. Available on usawaterski in the "officials resources". Should be in "competitors resources" as well, but is not for some reason :/

http://www.usawaterski.org/pages/divisions/3event/AWSARuleBook.pdf

[LeonL]

The rule you refer to concerning junior scoring is clearly spelled out in a matrix as @Drago mentioned. That rule is new this year. The other rule, allowing a skier to continue after missing the entrance gate was instituted 2'years ago I believe. It only applies to class C.

The rule book and summary of changes is a stand alone item in the left banner of usawaterski.org.

[Jody_Seal]

The chart is in the new AWSA rule book.

[John Brooks]

That rule regarding choosing between up in speed and rope length also, as with missing the gates, only applies to class C. I believe both rules are good for the sport and the junior rule regarding choosing between speed and rope length is really nice for kids who may not be ready for fast speed and we want to find ways to encourage them to continue skiing and progressing. Seems like this would be a good rule for all classes of skiers considering our zero based scoring system.

[harddock]

thanks-It was new to us and we will look into reading up on it. I like it especially since I don't think my boy is ready for 36 just yet! We are going to start shortening @34mph. We had not skied much AWSA last year, He was better suited for the INT Leagues tournaments nearby. Since no more INT in New England we are back to all AWSA. In the past at the slower speeds he never missed the entry gate so we were un aware of that rule.

[lpskier]

What happened to INT in New England? #iskiconnelly

[MrJones]

I just read the rule change. I'm also not sure what I just read.

[ToddL]

Here is what I sent my son (B3) skier to explain this:

 

Did you know??? That starting this year, you get credit for shorter lines the moment you run an opener. For example, Skier A starts at 30mph LL and Skier B starts at -22 28mph. Both run their opener.

Skier A's score at that moment is 54 buoys. Skier B's score at that moment is 60 buoys. The new rule adds in both the skipped speeds and the skipped line shortenings upon the completion of the opening pass.

 

Further, you must either shorten the line or raise the speed at each subsequent pass. If you do both and are successful, you earn 12 buoys for that.

 

Here's some examples:

30mph -15 = 60 buoys opening pass

30mph -22 = 66 buoys

32mph -22 = 72 buoys

34mph -22 = 78 buoys

36mph -22 = 84 buoys

 

Or

 

30mph LL = 54 buoys opening pass

30mph -15 = 60 buoys

32mph -15 = 66 buoys

34mph -15 = 72 buoys

36mph -15 = 78 buoys

36mph -22 = 84 buoys

 

Or

 

30mph LL = 54 buoys opening pass

32mph -15 = 66 buoys (both speed and line)

34mph -22 = 78 buoys (both speed and line)

36mph -22 = 84 buoys

 

For more info, see pages 8-9:

AWSARulesChangesSummary.pdf

 

[LeonL]

@MrJones it's pretty simple. In a class C a junior skier can either go up in speed or shorten the line or a combination of both and get credit for shorter lines without skiing the max speed for their division. The new scoring program version reminds the scorer that the skier has that choice. At this early juncture of the rule change that's good because undoubtably there are judges who don't know the rule in order to offer the choice to the skier. If you look at the matrix it says a skier may either advance down or to the right within the matrix.

[ToddL]

@LeonL is correct - Class C only (and only for Juniors).

[MrJones]

Sorry to be a dummy here, but you are saying that a skier who does not complete a pass a the max speed for their division can beat a skier who does complete a pass at max speed but was at a longer line length???

[MrJones]

Okay. So I guess I do understand the rule. How about an explanation of how this is a benefit?

[MrJones]

Okay. So I guess I do understand the rule. How about an explanation of how this is a benefit?

[Bruce_Butterfield]

I think the primary intended benefit is for kids moving to a new age bracket, like a 10yo boy moving from 30mph to 34 or a 14yo moving to 36. They may not be physically mature enough and may get frustrated by the faster speed as opposed to staying slower and shortening the rope. The way the rule is written goes beyond the most obvious cases and lets any kid try shorter lines.

 

On one hand I really don't agree with this rationale, but on the other hand I'm a firm believer that we need to try new ideas to see if they work before dismissing them.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

I think the primary intended benefit is for kids moving to a new age bracket, like a 10yo boy moving from 30mph to 34 or a 14yo moving to 36. They may not be physically mature enough and may get frustrated by the faster speed as opposed to staying slower and shortening the rope. The way the rule is written goes beyond the most obvious cases and lets any kid try shorter lines.

 

On one hand I really don't agree with this rationale, but on the other hand I'm a firm believer that we need to try new ideas to see if they work before dismissing them.

[Chef23]

I think it is a good idea for juniors moving up in age bracket. Frankly I wouldn't see anything wrong with doing it in any age bracket in a class C tournament if it gets more people out to ski. Nationals and all other ELR events should be traditional scoring.

[Chef23]

I think it is a good idea for juniors moving up in age bracket. Frankly I wouldn't see anything wrong with doing it in any age bracket in a class C tournament if it gets more people out to ski. Nationals and all other ELR events should be traditional scoring.

[socalskier]

The rule change is well intended but poorly applied. The rule should include reg/nats or it offers no true benefit for attracting more skiers to these events.

The simple fix is to retire B/G 1-3 and make it B/G 1-4 with shorter divisions and an increase of speed by only 2 mph. B1 to B2 speed change is ridiculous and many 14yo B3 are simply not ready physically for the increase to 36.

G 1-4 28 to 34

B 1-4 30 to 36

[socalskier]

The rule change is well intended but poorly applied. The rule should include reg/nats or it offers no true benefit for attracting more skiers to these events.

The simple fix is to retire B/G 1-3 and make it B/G 1-4 with shorter divisions and an increase of speed by only 2 mph. B1 to B2 speed change is ridiculous and many 14yo B3 are simply not ready physically for the increase to 36.

G 1-4 28 to 34

B 1-4 30 to 36

[MrJones]

socalskier.... I like it! More opportunity for kids to get trophies, set records, etc., instead of just taking a beating the first year or two in a new division.

[MrJones]

socalskier.... I like it! More opportunity for kids to get trophies, set records, etc., instead of just taking a beating the first year or two in a new division.

[harddock]

lpskier.... We sent in our membership and two days later there was a notice that due to lack of sponsorship there would no INT events this year. We received a refund!

[harddock]

lpskier.... We sent in our membership and two days later there was a notice that due to lack of sponsorship there would no INT events this year. We received a refund!

[Drago]

@Bruce_Butterfield why would you disagree with something that keeps people skiing ?

[sunperch]

I am curious on how this will affect the rankings list and who qualifies for Regionals and Nationals. I would hate for a kid who is skiing at his max speed and is on the bubble for qualifying be bumped by someone who was skiing at a slower speed, especially since that kid would not be able to cut line at slower speed at E/L/R tournament. This option allows for someone to "play the numbers game".

[LeonL]

@sunperch I would say the "numbers game" is available to everyone. If the max speed skier feels the under max skier scoring higher by going to the shorter line is at an advantage, why not play the same game.

[MrJones]

Let's make it even more confusing. I miss the days of the EP.

[gjohnson]

I like the rule change. Once a boy graduates to B2, he's going the same speed as Masters Men. Draw your own conclusions from that....

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@Drago I dont see this at all as something "that keeps people skiing" 

 

My disagreement with this rule is due to several things:

 

1) it effectively "lowers the bar" that the kids measure themselves against.  At the rate that kids progress, I believe it's important to challenge them and they will frequently rise to the challenge and then some.  Letting them stay slow and shorten may help some, but I think the majority will be better off increasing the speed. As an example, when my son went from B1 to B2 he was getting into 28 off at 30mph. He was on the small size for his age, but it only took 2- 3 weeks for him get back into 28 at 34.  And yes it "looked" like he was going way too fast for his size. If he stayed at 30 and shortened the rope I believe his progress would have been slower.

 

2) it creates confusion on the kids part if well intentioned parents keep them slower and other kids in the division.  How do you explain this rule to a 10yo?

 

3) I'm sure there are some kids who would progress better, but they are in the minority and are they skiing tournaments or just for fun?  Going slow to learn new line lengths is a good training option regardless of age.  Tournaments should have a consistent level basis.

 

4)  right now the rule is only class C, but I see real issues if (when?) this is in place for regionals and nationals. What about the B3 who can run 8 more buoys at 34 vs 36?  Or the G2 who can run 10 more buoys at 30 vs 32?  Many of the top skiers will be thinking about strategy to maximize their score. So is that really a fair and level playing field?

 

These are my thoughts why I don't like this rule and like I said, we need to try new things and be open minded. Maybe my concerns will be proven incorrect.

[elr]

This may be the first rule change change resulting from a BOS discussion. Kudos to Jeff Surdej for trying something new. I personally do NOT believe that Top 5 placements at Regionals/Nationals would be impacted as the top skiers would be skiing at max speed anyway. In any event all skiers under this system would have the the choice to ski at the speed that maximizes their score.

 

Here are links to the discussions:

Would doing away with max speeds change slalom for the better?

 

Boys 3 - The progression from 34 to 36

[Drago]

I see it as something used in the Fall when the speed change happens, or maybe even through the first year of a new division. Never had a problem explaining rates of progress and enjoying the process vs. "results" or "winning".

I recall Mapple saying speeds were too fast for kids way back when. I realize it is probably not a rule for the top 20-30 in the nation, but I see it helping newer kids and occasional tourney skiers. I think we should let adults go any speed they choose as well.(m2 @34, m3 @36, etc)

[ToddL]

@Bruce_Butterfield: "Many of the top skiers will be thinking about strategy to maximize their score." Yep.

 

My son would have liked this his first year as B3. Now, in his second year (and taller than me), he is thinking strategy vs. need. Honestly, he hasn't mastered either -22 34MPH or 36MPH at -15. So, he is wondering which he should tackle first. He likes the options. But, he also sees how any kid can work the rule to maximize buoys against an uninformed competitor.

[harddock]

My boy has been to three tournaments in New England. B3 Starting at 28 15 off and ending with 4 32 15 off scored as 4 at 32 long line. then 5 at 32 15 off scored as 5@32 long line. and lastly after a full run @ 34 15 off he shortened to 22 and ran a 2 @ 34 22 off scored as 2 at 34 long line. Results posted but unofficial.

 

So using the new rule pass #4 skiing 15 off 34 is scored as 34 long line and then at pass #5 he gets 2 @ 22 off 34 and is scored as 2 a 34 long line. His score is lower at pass #5 22 off then it was at pass #4 with a full run @ 34 15 0ff. Every pass is scored at his speed long line. I understand 36 is his max speed but buoy count went down as line got shorter.

 

I was led to believe the 15 off scores would be = the same as long line next higher speed. Subsequently the 32 15 off should have = 34 LL and 34/22 off should have been scored = to 36/15 off. What am I not getting?

[Drago]

TMI : can you give us his one best score . Ex: 2@22, 34

[LeonL]

My understanding of the new rule and the way the scoring matrix is written, the 34/15 should be scored as 72 with the 2@-22 should be 74. Anything other than that would be on accord with the old rule. Now having said that I have confused myself. I have to assume that the scoring program being used at that tournament is not at current level. Or, Was the tournament being run as an "L" perhaps? Did you talk to the scorer and CJ about that score? I'm finding a lot of judges have no knowledge of this change, but the software alerts the scorer to skier's option in this regard.

[harddock]

Best score was 2@ 22, 34 mph. (B3)

this was right after a full pass 34/15 off. it was a class c tournament as were the previous ones. There was a class L being run on another pond at the same time same site. However the long line same speed scoring was also at two other previous class c tournaments in two different states. The judge was told and was aware of the rules. I think the computer may be the problem. I messaged him when I read the scores but that was just today. I am only mentioning it here because maybe I am not understanding something and need some clarification.

[LeonL]

I can see it happening one time due to old scoring software, but not at three sites in two states, unless the same scorer was doing all three. There must be a glitch in the new scoring program.

[harddock]

The score did read 74 buoys @ 34 Long Line. The buoy count is right, the line length through me off.

[Kelvin]

The latest version of the scoring program alerts the scorer to ask if the junior skier wants to speed up or shorten the rope. We were one of the first tournaments of the year to use these new rules back in March at a collegiate tournament. The software was updated and got the scores right, but the description were not correct at that time. Sounds like more changes need to be made.

 

This weekend I pulled @ToddL 's son and he went straight up the line. He has grown a lot in the past year. This rule would have helped him tremendously last year.

[LeonL]

So, @harddock there's not a problem after all? Total buoys scored was correct?

[ToddL]

I sure hope that the newest version of the scoring software is calculating the total buoys correctly even for skiers who start at -15 and never get to max speed. I agree with @harddock that my interpretation of the Class C Junior rule is that a skier under max speed but at -15 is 6 buoys ahead of another skier at the same speed on LL.

[ToddL]

The new scoring software asks the scorer to specify the next speed and line length for junior class C slalom. Thus, Boat Judges and Scorers will have an extra bit of communication at each end of the lake. It went very well for me in the boat and the scorer:

 

Scorer: "Judges agree, 6 confirmed. Please verify skier's next pass line length and speed."

Boat Judge: "The skier has elected to... "

Scorer: "Confirmed..."

 

There was a prudent discussion about boat judge to skier communication:

Is it a distraction to ask the junior skier if he or she wishes to speed up, shorten the rope, or both?

 

One opinion is that it is the skier's responsibility to request anything different from the traditional linear path (up in speed until max, then shorten rope). Adding to this opinion is that if the junior skier is not yet aware of the rule, then he or she may be distracted by the question and impact performance. In this opinion, the boat judge's communication with the skier is probably best stated as: "Nicely done. Now we are at [next speed] and still at [current line length], OK?" Skier then confirms or makes his or her request to evoke the new rule option.

 

The other opinion is to ask the skier what he or she would like to do: "Nicely done. Now, do you want to go to the next speed, or shorten the rope, or both?" This way the skier is clear on his or her options.

 

Thoughts?

[Kelvin]

It's an education issue on the part of the skiers and their parents. And by the way, the choices are speed up or shorten the rope. If you do both that is an "opt-up" situation and should only be requested by the skier and not suggested to the skier from the boat.

[ToddL]

Correct, @Kelvin. Doing both is an opt up and if the pass is not completed successfully, the score will be put in at the next sequential speed/line.

[LeonL]

At this point (early tournament season in most areas) I think it would be prudent have a short skiers/parents meeting before the tournament to clarify the rule options.

[Chef23]

I think you run in to issues with casual tournament skiers. The serious folks know the rules. It did catch me by surprise as the boat judge when they asked if we would be coming back at a faster speed or shorter line. I don't think we had anyone shorten the line at a slower speed but there wasn't a big group of skiers.

[harddock]

Scored buoys were correct line length listed incorrect. Officials made aware of the situation and it is a work in progress. I don't think there were many utilizing this new rule. He may have been the only one. He said he may just go for 36/15 and not have to deal with it. Then he can decide what is best for him for now. Thanks for the input and clarifications. He has made a 10 buoy gain since his last tournament a week ago and with 2 days of skiing on a new ski so we are happy!

[Chef23]

@harddock what did Blake run at Pangaea? Glad to hear he is liking the new ski

[harddock]

2@22/34 was at Pangea. This year he skied a tournament @ LaPoints in March. Since then he has had a 25 buoy gain including the 10 this weekend. This is with minimal practice on a public lake course. Conditions and or traffic limit time on the line.