Reflex Tension Setting Off Scale for Wife?

[Bookm_dano]

Hey Ballers,

Just got our first Reflex binding for my wife and could use some input on the setup.

She is a 110 pound novice skier and the tension chart doesn't really provide a setting for that weight and ability.

With the tension just below 3 (red indicator just barely visible) she was unable to release from the ski. Had to decrease tension about 2 or 3 turns below that before she could release with her own strength. Just wondering if that is normal.

Sent a message to Reflex but have not heard back yet.

Thanks for any insight.

[Chef23]

I skied my son like that when he was young and while he couldn't snap himself out of it he always came off the ski.

[Horton]

The following is my advice and not the advice of Reflex. I do not speak for Reflex

 

If you cannot pop out on the dock your setting is wrong

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

Wow I never actually watched the video before. That is LOOSE. Do others run it like that? How can that not be prerelease central?

[Horton]

@Than_Bogan No that is not super loose. If you look I had to really commit forward to get out. There is not chance of prerelease for me with that setting.

 

Bottom line with any mechanical release is the skier must understand and "own" the settings.

[bbruzzese]

Ditto for my son....maybe just lucky but it never failed to release properly. I know it's a different application but having spent many years as a Silveretta rep and setting up tons A/T bindings at demos...in its original application you would never want to be able to just pull your boot out of the binding. Again different application, although at the time it's intended application,..personally I'm more comfortable with it a little tighter than the video shows.

[kfennell]

With my wife we had to put her in the water and get her to pull on the tip of the ski while she pushed her leg in order to find the right release setting, I feel like this is also a safe way to check it.

[BRY]

@Bookm_dano Don't go too loose. The Reflex chart shows specifically not to use any setting below 3.5. Any spring based binding needs some tension to work properly. Too far into either end of the range gets bad, unexpected results.

[Bookm_dano]

@BRY Yes, that is my concern. We had to go way under 3 for her to be able to release at all...that was in the house, ski on blocks, me holding the tail down and her cranking forward.

[Fehlindra]

think its important to make sure and adjust that the flexion brake strap back on the hardshell so it sets in just before you bottom out the ankle joint maximum movement range, just to avoid injury

[Than_Bogan]

Does anyone have any evidence that an ankle strap can prevent an injury? I can't see how stopping the boot from flexing will have any significant effect on knee vs. toe position, which is what hyper-extends the Achilles.

Would like to be wrong on this one!

[Horton]

@Than_Bogan i am going to let you think about that a little before i grant you a Panda

[Than_Bogan]

Oh, I've thought about it a lot. The strap ain't attached to you -- it's attached to the boot. And it's a couple inches long trying to fight a lever arm from your knee to your ankle. I doubt it's more than a tiny speed bump when your knee is on its way to your toe.

 

But I've only thought about it: If somebody has done some sort of experiment that suggests my thinking is wrong, I'd be very interested.

[Gloersen]

Reflex may state a setting less than 3.5 is undesirable, but @Horton is quite right. One needs to become very familiar with the Reflex "feel" and the way it functions and then set the release accordingly. It is prudent not using Reflex if one cannot get comfortable with this concept.

 

Very slight differences in the position of the release hinge, shell shape, spring tension, etc., make huge differences in the release force.

 

I set the two front buckles very consistently snug and dry land release before the brake strap becomes fully taught, and although the numerical setting is "~3", have yet to pre-release. I do release easily with too much tip, but appreciate the no Achilles stress after having blown it out in 2013. The brake strap will engage prior to over-flexion of the ankle too, so I do feel it protects the Achilles (@Than_Bogan) in this regard, again assuming the tension to release is not too high.

 

Don't just bolt on a Reflex binding to your ski until you become very familiar with how it functions,

 

[Horton]

@Than_Bogan if your knee is traveling too far forward the strap transfers stress down to base..... that is pulling on the release

[Fehlindra]

The injury occur when u reached your maximum range, been there done that as many other 11 month of total rehab 3 of them on crutches cant say i have any pain of it now but tiny less movement range that was before i had an release system. i can say that it helps but you rly need to make sure that the straps grabs in before you max out and over extends,

if you have an overlap liner as i do or extra padded in some way it can trick you to believe that you are safe cos of you feel the ankle strap sets in but in a fall /OTF all those extra padding makes your ankle moves further forward and maybe that short extra distance can be enough to cause dmg to your ankle. ofc your foot can twist in other directions that maybe dont make the reflex system release.

Dont know if pro skiers use that strap cos it hinder the preferred range of movement they maybe wanna have over the front foot, its your choice

[Waternut]

I'm 190lbs and 6 ft tall. I'll let you guys decide what number setting this is. I've had 1 pre-release since I bought the Reflex back in early 2013 and the release was set a good bit below this. I honestly think that the quality control on those springs is not so good because if people were using a setting of 7-8 on my boot, the only way they would release would be if the top sheet of the ski was still attached or their boot or their foot is still in the boot attached to the ski.

 

You'll know if the spring isn't engaged anymore but I don't think you're going to get there.

 

 

[Bookm_dano]

I would welcome some more insight into this.

@OB1 (and anyone else that wants to chime in) is it a bad thing to put a novice level skier on a Reflex system (as in dangerous, bad for development, some other reason)? Or just a waste of money?

I just don't want her to get hurt.

[parkerc2112]

anytime you can minimize injury, it's a win. especially with young people who are still growing/developing.

[Bookm_dano]

Glad to hear anyone's opinion.

Of course, this forum is kind of like asking the other pilots at the airport for aircraft maintenance advice: eventually, someone agrees with you.

 

[Edbrazil]

The toepiece on the Reflex reminds me of the "mousetrap" and "beartrap" front bindings

on snow skis from back in the 1950's.

[Waternut]

Let's please not start the whole debate of which binding is safe and which bindings have hurt whom. I can see no reason why anyone of any skill level should not be on a Reflex binding if it's comfortable for them. IMO, put the binding that will release the cleanest on the novice skiers because they are the ones who are going to be taking the hardest and most frequent falls.

 

Also, if a novice can be instructed how to set up a Reflex bindings once, it'll be good for many years. However, trying to convince a novice skier to pull on the laces with light tension is pretty ambiguous and if it feels loose, they are going to crank on the laces and then end up hurting themselves.

[Marco]

Being a Reflex skier, I would be cautious about putting a beginner on one, unless they wear a shin pad on the rear leg. I should have learned my lesson last year, when on July 6th, I took 8 stitches to the rear shin from my front Reflex boot. I skied with a shin pad the rest of last year, but not this year. This morning, almost exactly 1 year later, had a double release at the ball, and you guessed it...8 stitches to fix the gash. The novacain is just now wearing off. I won't post the photo.

[Horton]

Water Skiing is really one of the original extreme sports. It can be dangerous. The lower the level the skier is the more brainless and easy the binding release should be. Lower level skiers fall more and they lack the knowledge to understand the risk they take with any single binding system.

 

Personally, my front ankle is JUNK. The injury was my fault and my fault alone. I understand the risk and / or if I make a mistake I understand that it is my fault. A lower level skier cannot be be expected to make that judgement. They should be in soft Wiley's or Radar Vectors or HO whatever that they can just get out of.

 

I would never recommend any mechanical release (spring loaded or Dual Lock) binding to any skier who was not running at least 28 off.

[Waternut]

@Marco sorry to hear that. How tight is your toe plate? I had heard of this kind of injury was worried at first especially since I have a lot of soft scar tissue on my shins from other sports. However, I must say that I've never once kicked myself with my boot. I've slid over the ski a few times and gouged myself up before but I'd call that a fluke combined with poor ski setup and bad decisions. I run a Radar adjustable toe plate and I kick in there pretty tight but I'm always out of that toe plate long before my front foot releases so I'm usually doing the "stork stance" when I release.

[Waternut]

@Horton I feel like we're saying the same things but arriving at different conclusions. I say lower level skiers lack the knowledge of bindings so put them on a mechanical release so they can't screw it up.....provided someone can help them set it up or they read directions properly. I can agree that you can't screw up a Wiley bindings but I have a few nagging injuries because I just didn't understand the concept of how tight a soft binding should be even after skiing the course for a year or so.

[DanE]

@Waternut Beginners tend to yardsale in the most strange fashions often unexpectedly to them, they need bindings they can twist or eject out of in any direction. Shortline skiers can pretty much tell when they are about to take a header, usually otf offside- forward release only.

[Marco]

@Waternut - I don't ski with a rear toe plate. My back binding is a D3 Leverage rubber binding. My crash was from stuffing the tip at the ball, and happened so fast that even if I had a toe strap, I think I still would have gotten cut. I'll be wearing a shin guard from here on out once I can get back on the water.

[Horton]

@Waternut no we do not agree. Mechanical release bindings require the user to understand them and maintain them and be responsible for them. When you stick your foot in a rubber binding you can feel how tight it is. You basically do a released test every ride. I'm a strong believer that lower level skiers should use very simple and easy to get out of bindings.

 

When a skiers knowledge progresses their acceptance of risk and their knowledge increases. There is just no substitute for years of experience water skiing. Without experience I'm afraid it's too easy for people to make small errors that result in serious injury.

[Waternut]

Perhaps the concept that I'm failing to get across is the concept of how tight is too tight and what's just tight enough. Even as a 35off skier, I couldn't tell you how tight a soft shell binding should be because I've never figured it out. A noose around my ankles feels right but I know that's wrong. I have a Radar Vector front binding on a ski for friends and I have to fight like crazy to pull my foot out with the top laces completely undone. Meanwhile I have friends who "forget" to undo the laces and pull their foot out. How is that safe and normal?

 

In almost 20 years of skiing, I have come out of soft shell bindings a handful of times at most. Meanwhile, I can pretty much predict exactly when my Reflex will come off as I'm flailing around in the water after a fall whether it be an OTF, a blown tail, or some other goofy fall.

[OldboyII]

Is there any international standard or at least industrial standard for silvretta release unit?

If not, who can guarantee that two similar bindings provide same release force?

Or it is just good will of the manufacturer who, by the way has a very strict "terms of use" with disclaimer of "no responsibility"?

 

[Horton]

@OldboyII this doesn't exactly answer your question but it is my opinion that is up to the skier to test it to their personal setting

[MrJones]

My 65# daughter started using Refex for slalom last year after basically always using it for trick. I was nervous about it, but we just lowered the setting until she could pop it off on the dock and rocked on. Has worked fine to date.

[OldboyII]

@Horton

It is same like with releasable telemark bindings - in dramatic fall they release, though there are no standard like in alpine bindings.

There are two options - either you rely on your experienced friend/coach or you use the equipment with full knowledge how it works.

Not a drama but brain should be switched ON.

 

[chris55]

When using Reflex, it is common sense to try the release on shore before hitting the water like Horton on the video and Andy on the other video. Being smart is using other experience, always

[MrJones]

It is not an exact science at all. I never tested my boot on the dock as they tell you to in the video until I had been using it for about 3 years. In that time I had a number of good releases with no ankle stress just going by the recommended numbers for my weight. When I tried it on the dock (with the same tension setting) I thought I was going to break my ankle trying to get it to pop.

[Than_Bogan]

Huh I am way more of a spaz than many of you, I guess. I fall in all sorts of unexpected rotations -- especially at -38 (belying @DanE's claim). And, at least with the OB4 system, I'd be prereleasing left and right if I could pop it out like Horton does.

 

Of course, I guess this isn't too surprising considering this actual footage of me:

 

[DanE]

Have excactly the same experience as @MrJones. Release when I need to without any feel of strain on my ankle, feels like I'm going to break my ankle if I do a dock test.