Is there a Zero Off Easter egg?

[MickeyThompson]

@Horton That is a wonderful time in life. Enjoy every minute.

[MISkier]

Here is the joke, which is kind of not a joke.

 

Some of the skiers pulling for this new trick mode setting would disagree with my facetious/sarcastic assertion that some might say it is unfair and shouldn't be allowed. When I replace portions with ZBS terms, some of those same skiers would then agree with the resulting assertion and even used the same argument to lambaste ZBS.

 

Allow me to edit that previous post to see if those salivating over the new trick mode setting and protesting ZBS see the contradiction.

 

"I would be surprised to see this new trick mode setting ZBS approved. It seems like there would be some questions, especially if is closer to PerfectPass for skiers choosing the overspeed option. There might be some concerns that skiers who were not forced to adapt to Zero Off (as-is) their new divisional max speed and stayed out of tournaments because they didn't/couldn't couldn't or didn't want to ski their new divisional max speed upgrade their boats would now enter the tournament scene and have an unfair advantage with ZBS the new, friendlier setting. There could be an argument made that they would achieve rankings and qualifications that they would not have garnered prior to this setting ZBS and that would exceed those who have skied their divisional max speed with current Zero Off for years. Some might say it would not be a level playing field and/or could have an effect on the podiums at Regionals or Nationals. They might want to allow it at a class C to entice skier participation.

 

Personally, it doesn't matter to me, as long as the original settings remain and I still have the option to select my divisional max speed or other speeds in each round. those. I might try it out this year, but not until later in the season."

 

For those saying the new setting is a different issue than new speed/shortening options, I don't see it. For those that mention safety issues with ZBS, I can recall when Zero Off first appeared and received numerous protests that it was far more dangerous than PerfectPass. And, some did leave the tournament scene because of it.

 

It's a matter of saying "I want the new setting because it enables me to increase my buoy count and maybe ski easier" while simultaneously saying "I don't want ZBS because it enables somebody to increase their buoy count or ski easier".

 

In both cases, there are choices (new setting or not, higher/lower speed or not) and everybody has access to the same thing. Taking contradictory positions is not unusual. There is even a word for it. It starts with "hypo". Hypodermic? No..that's not it. Hypochondriac? No..not that. I'm sure it will come to me, eventually.

 

For the record, I am in favor of the addition of a new setting, just as I was in favor of ZBS.

[escmanaze]

@MISkier I love your comments here. Waterskiing is ruled by purists and therefore stuck in baseball mode. The 3 point line would have never been approved in the MLB, but can you imagine the NBA today without it? Both ZBS and ANY mode of zero off that is preferred by even a small percentage of the population being an option is a good thing. Why would we make a person choose a speed control they aren't comfortable with when there is a perfectly good one over here they are more comfortable with that still gets from gate to gate in the same amount of time? Both skiers had both options available. One is better suited to option A, the other is better suited to option B. Same thing with ZBS. They both had the option after 32 mph longline to either shorten the rope or increase speed. One guy chose higher speed, the other guy chose shorter line. They both chose the option that they thought would lead to their own personal highest score.

 

Might both of these options change who is actually viewed as the best skier in the world or in the nation or in the region? Sure!! Of course!!! But who's to say the old way was the best way to determine "the best skier in the world" anyway? The world a year ago unanimously said Steph Curry was the best basketball player in the world. I promise you, he would barely be making an NBA roster if we didn't have the 3 point line. I prefer to watch an NBA where Steph can get points from Deep, and Deandre Jordan can get points dunking. As a sport, we need to be willing to try some new stuff and not be stuck in baseball purist mode where nobody wants to watch and nobody wants to play because the powers that be are too scared of change because of what it might do to the record books. The new NFL rules have passing records being broken left and right, and it's obviously because of the change in rules. Ratings just keep going up because those same changes have made the game better to watch and funner to play for a larger number of people.

[Deanoski]

Finally, Zoff is not driver by one skier!!

 

more chooses are always better.

[Roger]

I don't see the relationship. I use B2. If there is a head tail, I use B2 head wind, and C2 tail wind if there is enough wind. If a new letter is added (trick equivalent), I may use that if it feels better than B2. None of the ZO letter/number choices alter my risk factor. Speeding up to 36 does and I will not risk it. I'm all for allowing skiers to shorten at a slower speed as that does not increase their risk factor.

[Drago]

I won't use C2. I might ski better, but I feel it is dangerous. I guess if you ski c2 and beat me, oh well. I make the same money.

[MISkier]

@Drago, I use C2, but I've been yanked out of my bindings on C3. I've stayed away from C3 for a while now. But, I see your point about a setting being more than someone could handle. Some may even say risky.

[Horton]

Just a reminder that this thread is really about Trick Mode aka increased Kp vales

[MickeyThompson]

Anyone trying trick mode?

[Bruce_Butterfield]

I tried trick mode tonight for the first time, staying at my normal C1. The gate pullout was different and will take a little adjusting, but in the course, the boat was much more in sync with me and for the first time with any ZO setting, I felt early and free of the boat in the preturn. Normally ZO seems like it is running and pulling me into the buoy and I'm always behind.

 

Based on 4 passes, trick mode is a significant improvement for me.

[kurt]

The big question is when is it going to be approved?

Why bother practicing with it if it's not available in a tournament.

[Roger]

@Kurt - Right, I liked it when I tried it and hope to see it implemented, but I don't practice with it because I won't see it in a tournament yet.

[Milford]

Well, I wish there was good news to share, but unfortunately, it looks like this project got pushed to the back burner and will be delayed. It seems that there are lots of moving parts and politics involved with implementing a new option like this. Testing needs to happen and then be approved, before a certain date, in order to make it into the 2018 boat line up. That date has passed and testing was not complete, so I can only assume that we will have to wait another year and hope that the ZO committee is motivated enough to push this forward. I am convinced that this is a better setting and needs to be approved for those that choose to use it. Yes, I agree that the bigger guys will feel the most benefit. I was hopeful that something would happen this year, possibly after Nationals, but all sources are pointing to it not happening this year. I hope I am wrong!

 

I would encourage everyone to go out and try trick mode and report back on your experience. Maybe with enough feedback through this forum, the powers that be, will agree that this needs to be a priority and spend the time to test and approve.

[Horton]

@Milford I spoke to Will Bush tuesday and got the same story. The good news is that he is taking it seriously. The bad news is the official spec for 2018 boats is already set. From what I understood we COULD get an official version in about 12 months.

 

[Bruce_Butterfield]

I don't buy the excuses for not implementing this feature. PP use to introduce new versions of SW a week before Nationals and there is a long history and precedents for regular SW updates. There is no valid reason a new choice of settings could not be implement immediately. Our governing body simply lacks the will to change.

[elr]

Why can't there be a 2018R1 spec?

[Gar]

I agree let's get this setting we need all the help we can get. Like the ESPN show "Come on Man"!

[Horton]

I am also impatient but on the other hand I do respect the need for testing and review to make sure that the new settings are correct before they are distributed.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@horton, like the testing and review for the first and current iterations of ZO?

[Jody_Seal]

You guy's are funny!!

E-control "ONLY" provides speed control parameters as prescribed and requested by the "TOWBOAT" manufacturers! we as a sport really have very little input on our direction as far as Zero Off and control parameters.

We are so small of a sport and consumer base for E-control/ Zero Off to put forth resources to make changes. Zero Off is not Perfect Pass! Perfect Pass is and continues to be a small mom and pop boutique type company where their only product is speed control for waterskiing and towed water sports (I hate that term). The parent company of Zero Off is one of the worlds largest electronic control company's and our little speed control needs and requests is like a drop of water in an Olympic swimming pool!

I will take B2 thank you! Hit it!

[skihacker]

C2+ please, I'm a little chubby. Hit it.

[Gar]

That being said can it just be changed in the rules to give the slalom skier the option to use trick mode and not involve E-controls?

[Jody_Seal]

You have no timing in trick mode! We are time based in reality not speed based. A alternate timing device would need to be added... magnets, wands, stop watches????

[Horton]

of topic but @Jody_Seal I think you know that trick mode gets the same course times as slalom mode. I just does not display it.

[MattP]

Honestly how often do we see bad times?

[Gar]

Well seems there could be some logical fix for that.

[Gar]

A well written rule change perhaps?

[jcamp]

@Bruce_Butterfield says "Our governing body simply lacks the will to change."

 

You mean the same organization you and others just spent a month ripping into because they made the ZBS changes too quickly and, as you put it, without data?

 

Damed if you do, damned if you don't.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@jcamp, yes. They are apparently willing to do "something" without thinking about any real or potential affect on the membership. But any quick, simple change, oh no. See my earlier comment about "no-brainer" changes. Do you think anything will happen?

 

Also, look at BRY's comment about blind change.

 

For this specific example, all USAWS has to do is allow the use of Trick mode for slalom and use a backup hand time if the autotiming can't be worked out. No change necessary from Ecocontrols or any towboat manufacturer. Heck, limit it to Class C as an experiment to see if anyone really uses it before trying to push the rope and get boat manufactures and Ecocontrols to make a "real" new mode.

[Gloersen]

ditto on prompt Class "C" roll-out

[Gar]

Bruce, I was thinking of the same use it in a C.

[skiinxs]

Independent GPS app on a smartphone that you can map to the entrance and exit buoys that will give times?

[Drago]

Sounds like a nightmare for drivers... says the devil's advocate

[Horton]

Ok I HATE bureaucracy more than anyone but I think this is one of those times when we all take a deep breath.

 

The ZO parameters have to be reset to use the new settings. Just using the current Trick Mode is half assed. Trick Mode is a good test of what is possible when you increase the Kp value but it is not really a good slalom program. The gate speed is different in addition to who knows what else is untested.

 

There needs to be a new Kp setting developed for every boat and engine combination. The plan as I understand it is to clone the current slalom mode with an increased Kp value and have it replace the Plus setting. Of course the problem with that is all the skiers that use Plus are now out of luck and will be spitting nails mad.

 

The final result is that if you like the current slalom mode you can keep it. If you like the increased Kp value (like Tick Mode) you will use the revised Plus setting.

 

[Horton]

As far as a Class C "Off Spec ZO" event – When and IF I ever get ahead of the events I am already working on this year I would like to see if I can put on a tournament with boats that are programed with increased Kp on actual slalom mode. Stay tuned.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

"......all the skiers that use Plus are now out of luck and will be spitting nails mad"

 

You mean both of them? B)

 

Yeah, I get all that. My heartburn is the attitude of the organization seems to be focused on excuses why things can't be done instead of what it takes to do something.

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield for President!

[skiinxs]

This would be a good topic for a survey:) Who uses plus mode? Actually, of all the tournaments I have driven the past few years, I am the only one who has actually used plus mode, and I would be one to benefit from it it being replaced with a higher Kp value similar to trick mode. I would actually like to help test anything that is being developed and would be happy to swap ZO versions back and forth in my boat to run the approved version during tournaments and the experimental versions at my lake and pulling practice before tournaments.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Another point is that if trick mode or something similar is adopted, there is the possibility that skiers will love it, then a month or 2 later, they will be right back to their previous settings. That's pretty much what happened with the plus setting. You can't get that kind of information from a handful of test skiers working over a weekend to come up with the next best thing. It needs to be experimented with by a larger group to see if it something worth pursuing.

 

@horton, maybe when I can quit my day job.

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield every once in awhile I have a nightmare about a day job and then I wake up and remember I do this. Day jobs are for suckers!

[GregHind]

It's great that everybody has it and can try it. If the demand is there, surely it will happen. I enjoyed skiing behind trick mode immensely but my level is not high enough (or consistent enough) to count.

 

For anybody that wants to run a tournament and try it, accurate timing is pretty easy. Borrow or buy a stargazer gps master module and gps puck, multi line display and the power cable. Plug them together, plug in power and you are away. I could pull these out of my boat and be operational in another in 10 minutes. If you had to buy them, they are in demand and will be easy to resell. Just make sure to get the mechanical throttle version.

 

If you do this, you will have gps timing exactly the same as zero would have given.

[Drago]

A couple handfuls of *older* gentlemen use plus in Colorado.

[Ralph Lee]

Hopefully next weekend I'll be out on the water to test out trick mode.

 

ABC 123 + has nothing to do with it? Just set it at 34mph and go?

[Ralph Lee]

I'll assume that was a dumb question and go back to page one of this post and read again :p

[MISkier]

@Ralph Lee, I haven't tried it yet, but I thought I read that it does take your letter/number setting and apply those characteristics somehow.

[BG1]

I would like a definitive answer also if anyone knows for sure.

[sbink]

I tried trick mode on my last pass of the day last Wednesday.

I actually asked for a change to plus but my boat driver is a comedian.

I ran the pass ok and the driver said the boat engine had a noticeable increase

In rpm at what seemed like the right time in the course.

So my boat driver decided to try trick mode for his ski set.

I was driving and was amazed at how well matched the rpm increase

Was to the skier resisting the boat.The boat observer agreed.

The skier ran through 38 @34 for the first time this year!

The 3 of us skiing that day have 90 plus years of tournament slalom experience

and we left Wednesday pretty fired up about trick mode for slalom.

Trick mode for slalom or something like it would be a nice option.

 

 

 

 

 

[Dirt]

This is an absolute no brainer. Most skiers like it and the ones that don't keep their current settings.

 

USAWS/AWSA keeps talking about growing the sport and making it better yet they drag their feet and make excuses about why this can't be done.

 

The only downside is boats would need a software upgrade. Approve it and make it optional. I bet skiers will pay to have their promo guy/gals boat upgraded.

 

HQ spend some money to do something the membership wants....we can't have that. Why? Insert numerous excuses here.

[Dirt]

I posted the above after reading Binkleys comment but before reading this last page of comments.

Horton posted a bunch of jibberish nonsense as usual.

What Butterfield said, as usual.

[Horton]

@dirt drunk?