What is going on at Junior worlds?

[Horton]

I read on Facebook there's some kind of Schmozzle with trick scores. Does anybody have a synopsis or an update?

 

What else is going on down there?

 

@FWinter did I read something about the British boys slalom scores?

[ntx]

@Horton looks like British boys finish 1&2. Had a run off to decide. Canepa 3rd. Hunter 5th. Looks like USA will not medal in team overall

[Edbrazil]

Event is all finished. Find results at: http://www.iwwfed-ea.org/classic/16IWWF03/

Where the US finished 4th, behind Canada, France, and Great Britain.

4th!! Good Grief. I remember when the US used to crush all other teams. Best as I can tell, won most of them, and never finished below 2nd.

[Jordan]

CANADA!

[ntx]

@Edbrazil This is the result of NO support from the organization. $$$. People complain about the cost to ski regionals and nationals. How about the cost to travel halfway around the world at your expense. Crazy.

[Edbrazil]

@ntx agreed. As far as I know, the Team members have pay for their own travel, etc.

Someone can confirm that? Think that the Elite Team is the only one that gets things

paid for. I know for sure that the Senior Team has to pay their own way.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

That's correct. Only the elite team gets any support from usaws. All juniors and seniors pay full entry fees, practice, team uniform, travel, hotel and food. Some tournaments the skiers actually have to contribute for the coach/manager travel cost.

 

Very shortsighted and very poor prioritization of funds IMO.

[klindy]

While the funding of the Jr Team is an important issue, what about the original post? What happened with the trick scores?

[Jody_Seal]

Hey Bruce you are welcome to start up a usa team booster fund!

Every one wants to complain but none will come to the table and contribute their time and resources.

Yea that is correct elite get the Lions share of available funding and the other teams whatever if any left over. Over the years The Florida waterski federation has donated large amounts to individuals skiing on these teams from our state that may need funding assistance to participate around the globe. I don't know of any other state federations that have done that. I also know many private donations have and continue to come in to help out..

[Horton]

meh. How many of those top kids from other countries actually train/live in Florida? Being Nationalist in water skiing and having your country do will is fun but country of origin is kind of silly when everybody lives in Florida. If Florida was its own country it would have won every major competition in the last 20 years.

[MAD11]

We should call it the dual citizenship world championships. That team together is unbeatable! Jokes aside, which rarely happens with me, congrats to all of them. Great group of kids and just happy to see such a big participation level.

[slow]

I thought Mapple was involved deeply in the feel of zero off

[disland]

We always ask why wont the USA fund their skiers. To me the questions is why to these other countries fund theirs? What do they get out of it? Where does the money come from?

[Edbrazil]

@disland Likely: Socialist countries with sports ministries.

[jimski]

Canada killed it That's what happened

and Yes most of them are in Florida year round

But so is Joel Poland and any other top jr who wants to compete. Any Amateur sports are generally family, (self )supported

Trust me I`m supporting a wakeboarder who wants to be pro in the next two years if you want it you better be prepared to pay for it.

The way I see it, it keeps him focused and out of trouble and in the long run that's way cheaper for me

Sorry im way off the topic

[wtrskior]

@Horton the only kids on the Canadian team who live in Florida are Paige and Neilly. The others just visit and are permanent Canadian residents born, raised and train in Canada when water is wet.

 

This is also true for most high level althletic's where year round training is required. Where do you think the US alpine ski team trains in the summer? Not The USA!

 

I do like to make the distinction and their success is more related to the strength of the program, coaching from Canada, Florida (often a canadian coach) and support from the Canadian skiing community than where they or their parents were born.

 

@Edbrazil you couldn't be more wrong. Almost nobody spends more on sport than the USA. Show me the money! You think the USA wins all the time because they breed better athletes? LOL

[ntx]

@wtrskior as a dad of a skier that has competed recently for team USA at several international events, there is no financial help given. Some of the coaches will give reduced training costs. @Jody_Seal said some of the regions may have a scholarship program, it amounts to a few hundred dollars.

 

@Bruce_Butterfield start saving your money for Zack and Krista.

 

My guess is that each family from Team USA had out of pocket cost for this single event of about 3-5k.

 

Looks like the USA underperformed in Boys tricks. Overall team points between 1st and 4th were less than 220 points.

[sunperch]

I also saw a post on Instagram that the boat judge made a very bad call on Brooke Baldwin's slalom run that cost her 1st place. Anyone know those details?

[wtrskior]

@ntx waterski Canada provides support to the junior team as I recall but its not very much. Money from the government would nil or negligible per athlete.

 

My point is the USA spends more on sport than nearly every other country. Just because usawaterski is disfunctional doesn't mean other national programs somehow have an unfair advantage. Sounds like sour grapes more than anything else IMO

[ntx]

@wtrskior are we talking sports in general, or water skiing specifically?

Not sure I understand your "sour grapes" comment. I was not vested in this tournament on a personal level other than having a interest in how each team performed.

 

[elr]

I think original issue was about 3 different sets of boys trick scores and two different winners - as bad for the sport optically it was, I would like to know how that played out procedurally . . ..

[Edbrazil]

@wtrskior So, how much $$ does the US Government grant to USAWaterSki? Or, to

individual skiers, particularly juniors? I suspect that it is $0.00. If not, show me the

numbers.

[Jody_Seal]

Yes Brooke was the victim of a poor decision by the boat judge. She did not pull in the loop from the 12m/35 off pass and Brooke thought she was at 11.25m /38off. Boat judge realized her mistake about 4 ball coming back through the course. Brook thought she had it won, sorry said the judge we have to go back and do it at the proper line length.

 

 

I can say that the Chile waterski Federation and the Miranda Family did one heck of a job putting on this tournament. On their behalf they have no control over who the judges panel was as the IWWF is the source for these officials. USA sent two very fine officials in Niki Lee and Mark Roske as chief driver. The pan am region provided top notch officials. Thank you Waldo, Martita, toti, pipe and the staff at Los Morros.

 

[Kelvin]

That had to be an emotional let down for Brooke, thinking she had won the event then being told she had to go back and do it again.

[wtrskior]

@ntx in general and sour grapes not directed at you.

 

There is a lot more corporate money in Ameeican sport's and much more focus in the school system as compared to canada

[wtrskior]

@Edbrazil I'm really not sure what government funding has to do with this? This is the sour grapes I was referring to @ntx.

 

The USA had what appears to be its A team at the tournament. #1 u17 skiers in most categories on the rankings list. I'm sure they don't need anyone telling them or insinuating in any way they didn't medal because there's no government funding to the team. Their performances on the water at his event, other's and their spots on the ranking list do the talking for them.

 

Canada won and it's because there are some amazing athletes and an excellent program. With how small the country is, how cold and how small the sport is in Canada I'm personally super proud. I've also been fortunate enough to be around and ski with some of the team members over the last few years as well and they are Canadian as it gets @Horton. Very proud of them and all the other kids that worked so hard to get to the Jr world's.

 

 

 

 

[BK]

The bummer of this thread is that the event, the Junior World Water Ski Championships, got no play here until there was word of a controversy. The event started last Thursday and this is the first thread on it, and it was posted Sunday night, after it ended.

Congrats to Canada and all of the teams.

74 points (7472, 7406, 7398) separated 2nd-4th, and 218 was the difference in 1st-4th. So Ed, our democracy is safe.

[Edbrazil]

@bk Actually, we are a Republic, not a democracy. If the US was a democracy, there would be

no Electoral College, just the popular vote. And, the Evil Witch would be President in a little

over one week.

[jimski]

I wonder how much foreign coin is pumped into the US through watersports. Boats, equipment, tourism, coaching, exc

I bet not to many US families come up to Canada and spend a couple weeks on a waterski vacation. "EH"

If you do thanks for the support

Just saying

[Drago]

That's not a poor decision by the boat judge. It's the #1 reason the judge is in the boat

[Kelvin]

It's the boat judge's responsibility to get it right in the first place.

[Skiwoodgate]

haha I didn't even realise they made a mess of girls slalom too!

[Ralph Lee]

To my memory, only one time in 21 years of marriage my wife forgot to shorten the line. That's while tending to children and public traffic. Seems strange how many times it's happened at tournaments?

 

Too bad Brooke didn't get deeper on her 2nd go around.

 

 

[andjules]

Interesting that (a) 1st place in boys trick would have come 3rd in girls; and (b) the top USA skier in boys trick was 27th.

[jcamp]

Jaimee Bull is an amazing skier and living most of the year in Canada has to be tough, especially with a January Worlds, so I congratulate her a tons. It also must have been a very tough situation for Brooke too, thinking that she won it, feeling those emotions, then having to deal with the disappointment of the judge's mistake and get back out on the water and ski again. She is the real deal, so she'll be back better than ever.

 

Two great skiers. One unfortunate situation, for both of them really.

[ntx]

@andjules you must have missed the USA girls third place finish in tricks. The team overall is calculated using the top three scores from the six person team in each event. Note that a country can have more than six skiers if a "individual" has a world ranking high enough to compete, but not be part of the six mmember "team". I think the USA had two skiers that were in that category.

[andjules]

@ntx you're right, my mistake.

@jcamp if I'm not mistaken, doesn't Jaimee Bull live in North Bay or Sudbury? summer starts late and ends early, even by Canadian standards.

[jcamp]

@andjules I believe it is North Bay. Very impressive indeed.

 

[LeonL]

@OB1 yea, I saw that and thought "wow he's smoking that 38". Then I found out it was just another real nice 35.

@Jody_Seal I don't know if I would have chosen "bad decision" to describe failing to shorten the line. F**k up might have been my choices for words. When that happens you either have one of two situations; the judge has been in the boat too long or you have a judge that has their mind on other things, such bullshitting with the driver. Boat judging requires concentration and dedication to the task at hanD. We've all seen it happen, as well as shortening two loops at a time too.

[The_MS]

I saw @Razorskier1 run 39 back in the day. OOOPs

[Roger]

@LeonL - I agree, "bad decision" not the proper verb. However, I would also say that the boat crew is just that, a crew and should work together. As a driver I always glance at the rope before pulling the next pass (Yes, I have caught both a missed shortening and a double shortening). As a boat judge, I never mind the driver checking the rope and/or asking me if I shortened it. The situation above is one of the reasons I always call in just before pulling the skier up on each pass with the skiers name and rope length (John, 12 meters, etc.). It gives me (and the driver and scorers) one more chance to get it right.

[Kelvin]

@Jody_Seal, I agree. I was the tournament director at one of the Big Dog stops at our place a few years ago and was able to get into the boat for some judging. At one point there were some off the water issues I was trying to handle on the radio while in the boat. Needless to say, the distractions took my focus away from changing the rope one time. I felt horrible about it. I love being able to boat judge, but I've learned my lesson and don't do it when I have other responsibilities.

[klindy]

@Roger The typical protocol at the international tournaments is for the boat judge to call in exactly what you describe at every pass. Likewise, after calling in all scores, the scorer would confirm the scores and line length ("6@12m" for example) and say the next pass ("next pass, purple, 11.25m"). Especially due to potential language barriers it's important to be redundant. All that said, sometimes it doesn't get done - typically when I mistake happens especially if everyone has been doing it, or someone says and ultimately does the wrong thing but no one catches it because everything gets 'too routine'.

 

Anyway, I've forgotten to change the rope before, I've caught it just in time and I've made every other mistake possible too. Feel terrible when it happens and certainly don't intend to ever do it.

[Razorskier1]

@MS -- it could happen to anybody . . .

[Jody_Seal]

Come on Gentleman! If you are going to quote me then do it correctly!

"Yes Brooke was the victim of a poor decision by the boat judge"

The Poor decision was for her the boat judge to not pay attention and got her self distracted. Brooke paid the price of the Judge's Poor decision!

AND it is NOT the duty of the driver to over see and monitor what the judge is doing especially at that level!

Yes I Too do "TRY" and keep up on the rope when I drive and where it should be but sometimes as driver's we are busy on the ends.

 

Also Gentlemen let's be reminded that this is a family show and we are talking about juniors. Try and set an example!

 

Trust me there were a whole lot more other series of events and poor decisions made by other officials of the event. Was truly a problematic championship that was self inflicted by a few judges...

I am pretty sure that reports and accusations are soon to heat up a number of email box's at the IWWF level.

[LeonL]

While I respect @Jody_Seal 's comment and agree that the driver is not duty bound to monitor the judge I also lean toward @Roger 's method. It is a "crew" and I think it's good to help each other. When I drive, and we're at less than max speed I always tell the judge "we're at 30", etc. and I do look at the loop before each pass. Bottom line regardless who has the real ultimate responsibility we want to give the skier the correct speed and line length. I've driven and boat judged at a site where the scorer says, "score 6 , running total X, next pass 35 off, 12 meters, blue loop." No one knows for sure to this day, but a regional championship was won and a regional record was set by a skier whose line, many suspect was not shortened, and not discovered. The skier ran a whole pass better than their average, so lots of people were suspicious.

[klindy]

I agree with @LeonL and as a judge will do the same reminding the driver of the speed and rope length on each pass the vast majority of times. Likewise in jump I'll say the speed and boat path as we make the turn. Then typically let the driver know "single", "3/4" or "full cut". Communication ALWAYS helps.

[mlusa]

The Miranda's put on a superb Jr. World Championships. The skiing was incredible. Unfortunately, the event was marred by poor judging, which is out of their control. These judges are picked based more on politics and not enough on merit. The host should have some more control over the choice of judges as it reflects back onto them as a host organizer. This selection process needs to change for the future. I think it deters people from hosting an event if they can't have some control over the judges that will run the event.

 

@klindy Here is my perspective on the what happened in Boys tricks. First, the decision to hold each skier for the previous skiers' score was a disaster, putting undue stress on each skier as they had to hold for sometimes 10 minutes and up to almost 20 min in one instance, without warning as to when they would have to go. Of course there was no provision in the rules for how long they had, once notified of the score, to be in the water; so it was immediate. Most stood on the dock with their ski on waiting. I 'm not sure why this was done, but I was told that some of the countries actually requested that they do this and the officials voted for this. I can't imagine how this helped any of the skiers. Until we have a more efficient way to come up with scoring this should never be done again. It was also not announced as provisional scores, which they are until they are reviewed.

 

This put pressure on the judges to rush to get scores out. Some of the judges were changed out after girls tricks, which went off smoothly, for a couple of new judges for the boys. Pato and Lindsey both skied well, but had issues. Pato fell slightly early at the end of his toe pass and Lindsey didn't get over the rope on a SLBB. From my perspective, I thought that their were several tricks of Linsey's that looked to be questionable and I thought that he would most likely lose credit on some of his tricks. In the end, he only received a NC on SLBB for not getting over the rope. Pato lost credit on a SL5, which I thought was fine from my view. Originally, Pato was announced the winner, which seemed correct from what I saw.

 

Upon inspection of the sheets, the French team noticed that the SLBB was called NC, but felt that he should have been credited a WBB. The judges made the mistake of calling SLBB NC and not determining wether on not it was a credit or no credit WBB. Just because you don't get over the rope on SLBB doesn't mean you automatically did a credit WBB. Initially, the first request by the French team was to change the NC SlBB to a WBB. This is a judgement call and should not have been allowed. If the judges felt he had done a wbb, it should have been written that way.

 

The judges changed the trick from slbb to wbb and then returned the sheets to the French team for review. Another error was then discovered that the judges shorthand had not been transcribed into the scorers tally and Lindsey was not credited a flip that he had actually done on the water. They then requested to have this corrected. By this time, it was around 9:30 and the chief judge requested for everyone to go home and they would finish up in the morning.

 

The Mexican team filed a complaint in the morning that the slbb should never have been allowed to be reviewed because it was a judgement call that was missed. Same as Pato not receiving credit on SL5. Pato wasn't allowed to have the judges review his tricks, but Lindsey was given that option. The Mexican team requested that since Lindsey was given the option to have his trick reviewed, Pato should have the same. This was granted. In most instances, if the originally judging was good, the trick would again come back as no credit. The SL5 was reviewed and the original call was overturned. This is pretty incredible and the trick would have had to have been very good to have the original call overturned, which means that the judging was pretty poor to have taken a trick that was good under further review.

 

The entire thing was a mess created by poor judges and poor decisions. Had they called the runs properly, the outcome would have been the same and Pato would have won based on the what he did on the water. The situation put the kids, family and teams in a very awkward situation, but I think they made the best of it. Had they run the trick event like normal without the scoring delays between skiers, they would have been able to finish earlier and resolve the issue on the same day.

 

@Jody_Seal As far as Brooke's slalom, the judge made a huge mistake. Unfortunately, the judge's initial response that "it happens" and not humility, remorse or apologetic made the the acceptance of the result much harder. I did hear that she did finally apologize. Unfortunately, mistakes are going to happen, but most often it's the attitude of the judge that makes the situations better or worse. It's much easier to forgive when you see the person isn't so cold about the result and their mistake. I was at Jack's when Jon had a tech issue for Will Asher running 41 and his response was unforgettable. It was obvious immediately that he was devastated and very sorry for Will. The response of this judge contrasted so much to Jon's response, that it reminded me immediately of Jon and Will. The boat judge calls in the color and line length to verify. Why she wasn't looking at the loop on the pylon while confirming with the tower is the problem. It is the finals of the World Championships with the top seed on the water for the "money" pass and everything should be triple checked.

[jcamp]

I feel really bad for these kids. To have so much pressure (self, family, country) riding their shoulders and to be let down by the adults running the show is just terrible. I hope that none of them left with a bad taste in their mouths. This is how you turn kids off a sport.

[Jody_Seal]

@mlusa

Thanks Russell! great synopsis of the event.

Call it what you will this type of poor judging needs not to happen at any event especially a world title event. The quality and performance of these young skiers have defiantly been taken to a higher platform over the last few years and so should the level of judging to match. Sad because there were numerous individuals fully qualified sitting on shore watching that could have handled the judging duties, Especially in the trick event.

 

From what I understand it was the team captains that wanted to do the judging in between skiers and the panel and chief was a bit hesitant to do so.

Damned if you damned if ya don't!!

 

Brooke is a very strong willed individual and in no way has this incident slowed her down and I know she has moved on as she has other championships to go after. The U 21's are coming up as well as the jr masters and she is very Goal oriented.

I did not hear what the judge told Brenda as she exited the boat as the noise was pretty loud on the dock. Hat's off to Steve Garcia for defusing the situation and clearing the dock for the next Boy's event.

 

Brooke did learn something from this, you can bet your sweet behind she will check on her own and make sure the line is correct before she say's go!!

She did wind up with the Overall as well as medaled in all three events, when was the last time a girl did that??