What do hrs on a boat really mean?

[Horton]

I change my oil on a boat every 50 hrs

I change my oil in my truck every 3000 miles

Does that mean that 50 boat hours is about the same as 3000 miles in terms of engine life?

So a 1,000 hr boat has the equivalent of 60,000 miles? That can't be right.

[dchristman]

That sounds about right to me. A 2000 hour boat equivalent to a 120,000 mile car - I wouldn't buy either, but the price might be right for somebody.

[Wayne]

It really depends on the load profile (or use). Looking at just the engine, 500 hours on a ski boat the engine still has a lot of life left in it. Same engine, same number of hours but it's in a v-drive that was always weighted with 4000 pounds of ballast. Probably a little more wear and tear on the internals due to the use.

 

And there is a good chance you can push the oil changes on your truck to 5000 or 7500 mile intervals unless you are constantly towing a heavy load, check your owners manual

[Horton]

@Wayne no no no! Slalom boats. Not V drives not bass boats not Outboards not yachts. Slalom boats. Typical usage 32 34 36 miles an hour.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@horton, that's not a bad rule of thumb. I have had several cars with well over 200,000 miles and still run fine (yeah they use a little oil, I'm sure the power output is a little lower than new, but I don't notice it). I had 1800 hrs on my GT-40 when I swapped it out for ZO and it was going strong. Over 1200 hrs on the 5.7 and runs like new.

 

There are lots of opinions, but IMO regular oil changes and upkeep are way more important than hours. Its hard to get that through to most people, the same way they stay away from cars with over 100k miles.

[RazorRoss3]

I'd agree it's more about the care and maintenance than the hours to a point.

[LoopSki]

my suburban had approx189,000 miles and read approx 5600 hours when I sold it.

[spicoli]

I have 98 with gt40 800hrs and pull it with 95 lightning gt40 175k .boats oil clean no use .truck burns and leaks some but still strong. But at 34 mph in the boat I'm turning 3400 in the truck 2000 rpm.so hard to figure but the boat never rides for 7 straight hours at 80mph .long as it's cranks I'm good.

[bigskieridaho]

I think it would mean the way that people take care of it. I see these boats with over 1000 hours or more and people talk about the computer printout at each rpm. IMO if they are running 36 all the time then that would be harder on the engine. If you are teaching or running trick then may be different. Either way not sure we can compare cars with boats as far as hours unfortunately.

[Cent]

I think usage and maintenance is key.

And 36mph is harder on a boat than 34mph or even lower speeds for typical family use with beginning skiers and tubing etc. also hills make a difference. Done comp board with a 5.7 at 34 or 36 mph are working far harder than Horton's Centurion Carbon Pro.

 

On the other hand the typical family in my experience does a very poor job of maintenance. Timely oil changes are important. Many recreational owners have low usage but do not change oil even annually at the end of a season.

 

Knowing a boats maintenance and use can be more import than the number of hours. Marina's see plenty of new $70,000 plus boats out away seasonally with no oil change, for example, and it continues year to year.

 

Well maintained boats with regular fluid changes can give a lot of hours of service with no major engine problems. Alternator or starter or water pump may need relacenent over time but the engine should be fine fir a long time.

[DanE]

I have seen a 196 with 6000 hrs on it in a ski school, just regular maintenance. Pulled me @ 36 mph.

[John Brooks]

What do you estimate the cost / hour of the boat is? I feel like to start I use 3,000 hours as the useful life of the boat and engine. Then add in average annual maintenance, insurance, ect.. If I use $60,000 as the cost, 3,000 hours as the average useful life, cost per hour is $20.00. What do you think?

[waterbeat]

Another way to look at what boat hours mean: Cars average about 30mph. So for 100 operating hours they would travel ~ 3,000 miles. 1,000 boat hours then would be equivalent to a car with 30,000 miles. Doesn't sound that bad does it?

 

Of course ski boat engines are working harder and always going up hill. But then they are generally used in fair weather with minimal cold hard starts. With regular maintenance they should be good for a lot of hours.

[ForrestGump]

PCM at one time said that service life of the Ford engines before rebuild was 2400 hours.

[jhughes]

Back to the original question- what do hours mean on a boat? Way too much focus on the engine. How about overall boat wear and tear? That's 2000 hours of someone's ass in that driver's seat. Getting up and down. Walking around the boat. Rope rubbing back and fourth on the engine cover, rear seat back. Carpet getting matted down. Cover on/off/on/off, rubbing or flapping from towing. Launching over and over and over (assuming a trailer boat). Keep in mind a full interior is going to be nearly the same amount as a long block. A new Ram-Lin trailer is 4500.00, the other brands are right around there as well just for a base trailer.

[oldjeep]

Depends on maint records, but also depends on previous owner knowledge. I looked a a boat a few years ago, had all maint done by dealer on a good schedule. The boat had some minor issues I noticed right away that any monkey could have fixed which indicated a lack of mechanical experience by the owner. Those I tend to steer clear of, as minor issues turn into major ones when ignored or not even noticed. Of even more importance than the total hours is the report you can pull from the ECM showing the hours per RPM range. Total hours don't really tell you much about how many hours a butt has been in the seat unless it is a boat that does nothing more than run up and down a ski ditch. Our engine has 230 hours on it, the boat has been "used" more like 800 hours as a anchored swim platform in between and after ski and board runs ;)

 

 

[skiinxs]

Most boats used on private lakes actually spend very few of their hours actually working, most are at idle at the ends of the lake shortening the rope and at the middle picking up crash and burn artists (like me). As an example, refer to the attached Diacom grid from one of my past promo boats. Out of 195.32 hours, 112.33 hours was spent at idle. only around 73 hours were spent above 2500 rpm's. Contrast that to my Suburban which now has 220,000 miles at around 5,800 hours, which is an average speed of 38.6 mph. the Sub has probably spent around half of its time pulling a boat, which I believe is considerably more load than a boat engine pulling a skier. If we equate hours to miles on the suburban, the boat would have around 7,500 miles on it, but remember most of the time the boat was at idle. I agree that maintenance is a much better barometer of longevity than hours in a boat. A boat that is run regularly, gets a couple hundred hours per year, and good maintenance will last longer than one that is only run occasionally, gets 20 hours per year and poor maintenance. As an example, as we were checking in boats at a tournament quite a few years ago, one of the boats was so low on oil it was off the stick. The owner was told that the boat was not going to get used until it had the proper amount of oil. The boat was over two years old, had over 400 hours and still had the original oil filter. That owner has not had a promo boat for over 15 years and is an extreme example. I was totally shocked, but I saw it with my own eyes. That is what a buyer needs to be careful to avoid. The boat in the example below received six oil changes, conventional at the 25 hour change and full synthetic starting at the 75 hour change and all recommended maintenance. I am certain it was a much better boat when I sold it then most boats with less than 100 hours.

 

[oldjeep]

Even in a boat with more general use the bias is towards the lower RPM's. This is one I pulled from my boat in Aug.

 

[DanE]

Generally an engine that is put to use year round is going to hold up more hours than an engine that is put in storage several months per year, (proper storage conservation methods of course will help mitigate this) assuming regular maintenance.

Rpms alone does not tell the whole truth, lower rpms require higher torque to keep the boat on plane and puts higher stress on pistons and crank, but of course have less impact on camshaft, lifters and valves.

[swc5150]

Looked at the diacom on my last 196 before selling it last month. 690 hours, with 111 at slalom speed. 2 hours over 4k rpms, with the rest all idle cruising. To me, that's pretty gentle use.

 

I agree with @jhughes High hours usually translate to more sins in the interior/exterior of the boat, versus engine issues.

 

 

[brettmainer]

IMO, 5000mi on car = 50hr on ski boat. 100/1 ratio. Boat engines work harder. Idle, full throttle, 3800rpm for 25 seconds, idle. Repeat every two minutes. Every local high use Nautique I know of has made 2000hrs just fine with the exception of a couple of transmission issues. Our last 196 club boat started to break down around 2500hrs.

[MuskokaKy]

I don't really understand how anyone can compare the two. Boats need to have their own life expectancy. its like comparing apples and oranges. Going back to Horton's post. 50hrs oil change for boat; 3000miles for car. So if you drive your car 3000miles straight (without stopping per say) its X amount of hours. but if you city drive and stop at lights, keep it running while running while you run in to grab something, warm it up ( for those of us north) etc etc, these are HOURS not be calculated into MILES. i can let my car sit for 20 hours in the driveway running and equates to 0 MILES. boats are tracked from the time they are switched on. Unless there's some genius who can break down the RPM usages to hours for both with valid proof of wear and tear and breakdown I don't think we have a discussion or comparison.

[Horton]

@MuskokaKy no boat or car is going top speed all the time. In both cases it's a mix and one would assume there is a typical ratio of high speed low speed and idle. We're just talking about a rule of thumb not an exact mathematical equation.

 

The reason I started this thread was because of the Mastercraft that is for sale in another thread. Is so cheap because it has 600 hrs. I don't know the actual owner of the boat very well but I've met him a few times. I bet he changed the oil and impeller more often than most and keeps it in a perfectly clean garage in the offseason. I would assume that any tiny mechanical imperfection is immediately addressed and taken care of.

 

Now that boat is for sale incredibly dirt cheap. It's great the next buyer but it's really bad for the market as a whole. In my mind that boat is worth at least $10,000 more than its listed for.

[DW]

@Horton : your estimate is probably reasonably close, and as noted very different duty cycles and probably more important engine coolant cycles/properties. Certainly oil change intervals on a boat at 50 hours (particularly for 3 event use) is generous but since 50 hours tends to be a reasonable average across the spectrum for annual use, not a bad rule of thumb. As an example, the oil in my boat at 50 hours on a 1000 hour engine is still at the full mark and clean, the oil in my pickup truck or car for that matter is dirtier at the 3000 mile mark with vehicles that have 100k miles on them.

 

To me, the more critical factor on condition, would be any engine water temp data, particularly focusing on impeller failures as that would deteriorate an engine pretty quick. Overheat events particularly if severe will trash the piston rings and score the bores thus hurting the compression.

[MuskokaKy]

@Horton i hear what youre saying. and i know thread in reference. Sweet boat!

 

what im saying is that hours and miles arent comparable. an hour of idle time isnt tracked on a vehicle, but it is on a boat. and now WE ( the collective community) say that idle time equals miles....it just doesnt make sense to me but ive had this discussion before.

 

using the 600hr MC. lets say 20% is under 1000rpms...why are we saying that 120 hours of idle time is equal to approx 8,000miles? hard to agree with personally

 

I saw someone say they wouldn't touch a boat with 500 or 600 hours and sadly i have that same mindset but I cant justify it!! the math isn't there... lol. Its been the years of hearing "any other over 400 don,t touch unless you knew the guy personally" etc etc...but never any backing behind it.

 

It would be great to get a retired professional or former industry engineer to give us their opinion. Dont know if we have any retired gear heads or those who had hands on development of the motors at all...i say former or retired for unbiased and non-conflict of issue thoughts / opinions.

[A_B]

And boats used as a safety boat sit idling for a bunch of hours.

[Bulldog]

Boat use and maintenance is way more important than actual hours. If the proper maintenance is done and the owner is looking after his or her boat properly a boat can last for years... I am sure we all know a guy that abuses the crap out of his boat and would never buy it no matter what the hour meter said.

[Mrs_MS]

Depends who owns it.

There are people who I wouldn't buy a boat from...PERIOD

[A_B]

Right on @Mrs_MS. We have a 2007 with over 1K hours on it and people say it looks like new and can't believe it's that old. My '99 looked brand new when I sold it 10-years later. Always run synthetic and wipe her down after every use and keep it waxed up! Never sits in sun as it is in my garage if not blasting through our course on our private lake.

[ColeGiacopuzzi]

My 2014 SN 200 has 305 hours on it. I just bought a used truck with 6500 miles on it. In the menu screens I found an engine hours tab, so with 6500 miles on it, it has 299 engine hours on it. So that gives you a rough estimate of how many actual miles you have on a motor in a boat.

[MuskokaKy]

agree with @bulldog and @Mrs_MS

 

@A_B my point exactly. at what point do you look for a new one? and does hours dictate that for you? if not what does? ( curious as im in the market for a gently used new to me tug)

[fu_man]

@jhughes 2000 hours of someone's ass in the seat.....Ha,ha! Probably dripping wet too. That is a new perspective on wear and tear. Sounds kind of like Santa. 2000 hours of someone's ass in his lap....probably wet too!

[h2onhk]

@horton this may be a good subject for a poll. would be interesting to get ballers perspectives on how they go about purchasing their tugs and were number of hours comes into the equation. Only Promo? Only New? 0-400hrs not knowing original owner, 400-800 hrs only knowing the original owner, 800+, don't care because I can fix anything, etc, etc.

 

just a thought.

[Gar]

Gas burners are surely made better. As a fleet manager for 14 plus years I regularly saw GM trucks get 400,000 miles with no internal engine repairs. One truck we took to 652,000 miles the motor was still running fine but the transmission blew. These were 4.3 V6 mostly but the 4.8 and 5.3's appear to be doing the same (some would burn some oil). These trucks carried minimal loads at highway speeds for their entire life and would run about 100K miles per year. Of course I was doing my job keeping up with the oil changes and other required maintenance!

 

I also had a 1982 Ski Nautique 2001 I owned for 17 years and put about 5,000 hours on it. At about 4,000 hours we had to do a light overhaul. The cylinders did not have to be bored (only a few thousandths wear!) and it ran as good as day one after that. I just reach a point I was getting older and wanted a better wake and was tired of working on that OLD BOAT!

[disland]

I try and run my boat on the lake at least once a month in the winter. I believe machines last longer when run regularly. When I was in the Navy we flew planes that were very old but has fantastic maintenance crews. The key to low repair rates were flying them every day. If they sat around more than a few days invariably we would find all kinds of failures during preflight. If you folks who wouldn't buy a boat with more than 400 hrs on it knew how many hours were on the airline fleets you would never fly to Nationals.

[slow]

1000hrs/100,000miles

[A_B]

I sold my '99 only because it was a PP boat. My lake partner bought the 2007 with high hours, but we figure as little as we use it, it will have moderate hours when we are done.

 

I would still have my '99 if it wasn't for ZO.

Loved that boat.

 

[DanE]

@A_B And there is the real reason ZO came about, the TSC1 hull was a little bit too good for boat sales.

[Wayne]

@Horton when I made the v-drive comparison it was to demonstrate an extreme. I wouldn't want a ski show boat either. Even with good maintenance I would shy away from a boat that I knew had hard use.

[Horton]

@Wayne I'm just trying to keep the subject matter on topic

[bigskieridaho]

Well I just just checked our truck this morning and it has 74K miles and 2300 hours..... so however that works out. Still not sure if you can compare the two.

[DanE]

Warm up periods of engine matters, most wear occurs before the engine reaches operating temperature. So an engine that runs 1500 hrs per year in a ski school operating year round will have less wear in a year than an engine that runs 150 hrs per year after ten years if that makes any sense.

Of course maintenance schedule as per the manufacturer followed in both cases.

[Waternut]

Still waiting for someone to sell me their ZO boat with 2000+ hours for the same price as an 80's Prostar with 300 hours.....ya know because so many people believe that 1000 hours is outrageous and would never buy a boat with hours that high.

[Fast351]

I'm part of the two zeros camp (add two zeros to the hours to get the equivalent car mileage).

 

Of course, that only tells part of the story anyway. The care and maintenance is far more important and the interior of a boat tells you a lot about how well cared for the boat generally is. I saw a boat at the dealership once, had 7 hours on it, interior was shot. Rich daddy bought it for his kids, they destroyed it.

 

On the other hand, I've seen 1000+ hour boats that looked factory new on the inside. I'd much rather have one of those.

 

At the end of the day, engine hours really only tell you how many hours the engine MIGHT have left in it (that depends far more on regular oil changes than total hours accumulated). The rest of the boat is much more subjective...

[DW]

To get a reasonably decent snapshot on engine condition, three tests should improve your odds of knowing: 1. compression test, 2. leak down test, 3. oil sample analysis (Blackstone labs as an example).

 

That still does not give you information on some of the internals condition such as valve springs and how close you are to some failure modes such as a head gasket but it does paint a pretty decent condition picture.

 

The commercial airplane example is pretty good, if you want to know how old the aluminum cylinder you are boarding is, there is a tag riveted in the entry door surround. I did a casual date sampling while flying frequently several years ago and the average age IIRC was ~25 years and it was on well respected domestic carriers, not the little prop puddle jumpers that ferry you to those diving islands.

[klindy]

Why not shut the boat off at each end and save the idle hours. Makes it easier to hear any coaching too for those of us that have ear trouble. Buying a starter and/or flywheel is a lot cheaper than engine rebuild or replacement if 50+% of the time is idle time. Besides it saves a lot of gas!

[skiinxs]

@klindy Actually the data in the Diacom grid I posted earlier is inclusive of me shutting the engine off wherever possible. There isn't a lot to be saved when shortening on the ends once you get the boat stopped and positioned where you want it, this depends a lot on the skier. A few skiers like to wait a while at the ends, and those I shut down for. Others are ready to go again almost immediately after shortening the rope. The worst offender is tournaments where two boats are used in the same event. I try to drive my own boat whenever possible to ensure the boat gets shut down and doesn't idle for three or four minutes while the other boat is pulling their skier. If I can get to the starting dock to hold, I can save a lot. If I am holding away from the dock hooked up to the next skier on a windy day, I sometimes need power to hold position with my big bimini top (aka sailboat)

[bigskieridaho]

@rayn not sure why you gave me a thumbs down but whatever buddy.

[mundo]

As already mentioned numerous times changing the oil every 50 hours and keeping good care of the engine is more important than the actual number of hours, en engine that has run for 200 hours neglecting an oil change can be in worse shape than one with 1,000 and regular maintenance.

Back to topic, I believe that you can take in account the rpm´s that we operate our ski boats at and see the equivalent in a truck in Mph and come up with a factor that will give an idea. To me that factor is about 5,000 miles per 100 hrs taking into consideration the time our boats spend at idle or very low rpms.

[SkiKolb]

Does anyone change the oil in there car at 50hrs? That would be about every 1500 miles. A boat that is used regularly can easily go 100 hrs between oil changes . The bot that gets 20 hrs a year , should have a yearly change .