Edge Change, Input or No Input

[Stevie Boy]

Hi Baller,s

I need to sort out my theory on edge change.

 

#1 lean away from the boat, pressure builds if you maintain, edge change automatic

Cons- lean too hard and you could get lean locked or lean away too much and you will get thrown over, ending up narrow.

 

#2 If you remain more upright, the ski will edge change easier, maybe earlier.

Cons- may not have generated enough speed to go outbound ane get width.

 

#3 should I be initiating the edge change myself with some movement, to achieve earlier edge change, whilst generating speed

 

Some of this may not make sense, I am ok in the course, things just sort themselves out, it,s mainly the gate shot giving me problems, either too much speed or narrow,

Inconsistent because I keep changing.

Please somebody, put me straight .

[Stevie Boy]

So I notice Wim Decree and CP have very similar styles, it looks to me like there is some input as they swing through the back of the boat.

[Gloersen]

@Stevie Boy - Edge change is a result.

 

Proper Edge Change

[Terry Winter]

@Stevie Boy Good questions... an edge change doesn't happen unless you allow it to happen. If I need to pull all the way to the next buoy to get that extra 1/4 buoy, then my edge change is not going to come until much later. You have to learn to separate what is happening with the ski and whether it is on the accelerating or gliding edge, and whether or not the upper body is leaning away from the boat keeping tension on the line or getting ready to commit to leaning inside to make a turn.

 

In general, the ski should be on the accelerating edge up to the center line of the boat guides. If you continue to accelerate much past the center of the course then you are going to be carrying more speed into the buoy.

 

Lean away from the boat and into the desired direction of travel should be intense. Nate makes it look easy, but he is putting in effort.

 

Don't think of it as an edge "change", think of it as the moment that you are done accelerating and you need to go into a glide. You've built up the energy and the speed out of the buoy, and now you need to allow that energy to carry you or swing you out wider than the next buoy.

 

The idea of edge "change" gets skiers allowing their upper bodies to go from a lean away from the boat to a lean back into the boat way too quickly. The goal is to stop the acceleration, but manage to keep some away tension on the rope as you swing out to the next buoy. You want to decrease your lean away from the boat, but not totally eliminate it.

 

The reason you feel differently on the gates is that you are not approaching the center line of the course with as much energy as you are when you are coming out of a buoy. Build more energy on your approach for the gates. The gates set the rhythm for the rest of the pass, so try to establish the rhythm that you would like to use throughout the entire course.

 

Give it a try, and see if that makes any difference.

[RazorRoss3]

If your issue is with the gate I would take a step back. If the edge change through the gate isn't playing nice then it is likely something before the gate buoys causing the issue. Especially at your hardest pass it is really easy to pull out narrow or turn in early and on either side of that coin you lose at the 1-ball. Be sure you are getting out wide, visually wider than the 1-3-5 on the glide and then maintaining that placement long enough that you can take the same kind of angle through the gate that you do out of a buoy. If you can do that then it should to some degree take care of itself.

 

addendum 1: I have noticed that through the gates, unlike other cuts, the brain sees the gates and skis to them, then once it gets there thinks "ok, I got to the gates, now what? Oh yeah, where in hells name in that 1-ball" it is important that once you know you're going through the gates than you change your focus to the next task otherwise by the time you find the 1-ball you're 15 feet out to it already.

 

addendum 2: As @Mark_Matis hinted at, knowing what level you are currently at would help with aiming our comments to you. There will be different tips for the different ranges because the line and the water simply feel different under the ski as speed changes and rope shortens.

[Stevie Boy]

@twhisper many thanks for your input, it seems by your explanation, direction and speed is required, but I have to have more control, on or after the center line.

@RazorRoss3 , getting on in years, have skied 32mph - 34mph down to 28off, trying to get back, sometimes, I get launched or have too much speed at 1 ball, am trying to keep two hands on longer, I have been told to reach slower, even though I feel I am reaching slower, I am still beong told it,s too fast, I feel the speed, but have trouble slowing my brain down, when I see 1 ball, I just want to turn it, instead of riding the ski.

[RazorRoss3]

I second @DaveLemons on the video the gate because I think that may be where the problem is hiding.

 

For the reach, the reach won't feel natural unless the pull from buoy to wake-ish and the trajectory from wake-ish to buoy are looking good. I say "wake-ish" because it varies a little bit by person and speed/rope length also have effects on the timing.

[Razorskier1]

@twhisper -- terrific thoughts! Too often we think of the "edge change" as an "event" between pulling and turning. It is a much longer process. I like to think that my "edge change" starts when I hook up to the handle and ends when I reach.

[skibug]

If you are too fast at 1 ball it is a pull out, height on the boat, glide, turn in, intensity through the gates issue. Are you a one-handed or two-handed gate? Video would definitely help. Without any video to look at I will start by guessing height on boat. Typically, too fast or too narrow at one means you are narrow at the turn in. This creates less angle of attack and more speed into 1 ball. Wider at the start allows you to create better angle with less speed. Next time you ski, just try to pull out to a point wider than you are typically comfortable pulling out to; I call it uncomfortably high on the boat, then you know you are there. You may be surprised.

[Stevie Boy]

@skibug I have been working on slowly letting the boat pick me up and the short sharp. Intensity before standing tall, turning slow and then increase load when I feel the boat, I am capable of generating a lot of speed on my onside, even AM noticed and made a remark about it, I was thinking earlier edge change might help, I have direction, and a ton of speed, but have trouble controlling my actions and keeping control

 

[slow]

I would listen to what twhisper says

[Terry Winter]

Hard to believe, but I think the rhythm and timing changes very little depending on speed or line length. I tested the idea not long ago at 24 through 30 mph 15'off.

[Terry Winter]

Gates at 24 mph

[Terry Winter]

 

[Stevie Boy]

@twhisper,I have just gone back and read very slowly, trying to visualise what you are describing, I get it and will try very hard to make it happen on the water, I am starting to think that I should eliminate the term Edge Change and replace it with Transition thank you for your explanation.

[Terry Winter]

http://www.trainwithterrywinter.com/

[Stevie Boy]

Was trying so hard to achieve what @twhisper explained, still not working, ahh! Light bulb moment check fin, don,t know how, but 10 thou too shallow length 5 thou short, re-adjust, now we have some width, not getting thrown into 1 ball with too much speed, now I can control the transition, starting to run more difficult passes with a lot more control.

Thanks everybody for their input.

[cragginshred]

Progressive gate is the key to my making slower controlled -28's more consistently. Prevent excessive 'cow bell' till you get to the 1st white water. Then early edge change as Terry said. A shorter more intense lean/work zone is required. As you said the tricky part is tight back shoulder with out getting lean locked. 'Keep the handle outbound' is what Brooks told me recently but at the same time let the ski cast out.

 

Spending too much time at -22 will hurt your ability to ski -28 is another conclusion I have come to. I want to be done with the -22 loop but need to be more consistent at -28 then start trying -32's.

[Horton]

@twhisper I have a question.

 

I try to get as much angle as practical and then to resist the temptation of leaning as hard as I can. From the boat it looks like I am pulling so hard I am about to have a hernia but I am trying to put in less. As I approach the wakes the load naturally increases without me doing anything else.

 

Do you actually try to increase at the first white water? I hear skiers talking about trying to wait till the white water and then go for it and that seems whack to me.

 

[gregy]

@horton good question. I've heard people talk about a variable intensity were you start low and build into the white water then ramp the intensity back down.

[Terry Winter]

@horton pretty much as soon as I can grab the handle and the rope is tight, I'm doing what I can to lean and go. I do not wait for the white water. At my shorter line passes my strongest load is probably somewhere between 5-10 feet before I reach the white water, and then by the time my ski is approaching the first trough my load is decreasing.

[Horton]

@twhisper what do you say to skiers who try that and then just end up on down edge too long? Or is inadvertently pulling too long a whole other topic?

[Deep11]

Most important part of that explanation seems to be : "and then by the time my ski is approaching the first trough my load is decreasing"

[Stevie Boy]

On vacation, Just watched a skier on 35off , awsome gate and 1 ball, shame I didnt video it, he turned really early, with a progressive, really nice arc, loading really hard at the white water, for a short duration , he was fairly upright, until just before the white water, I just happened to be standing in such a position to experience, a true visually experience, I have watched many skiers on their gates, but never seen it like this before, slightly elevated, narrow lake, clear view of the gates from behind.

 

[Razorskier1]

@Horton - I let the boat and the line build the load and stay up off the water as much as possible. As I approach the first wake/CL, I do what @twhisper is saying - I'm already rising up and reducing load. Took me a while (started focusing on this last fall), but if I just tell myself as I approach the wakes to start coming up, life is real darned good. I just keep the handle and let the boat pull me wide.

[Terry Winter]

@Horton the reason people tend to pull long is because their ski's edge change and the moment that they let the hands out and release are integrated. If you edge change right at centerline and also let the handle out to the boat at the same time then you are going to come up narrow. This causes people to believe that they can't edge change that early, so they go back to pulling long. I tell people that if they want to get better then they need to learn how to edge change at an earlier point, and then learn how to maintain outbound direction by keeping control of the upper body and the handle connection. It's not easy, but something necessary to improve.

[Razorskier1]

I think we all need to write @twhisper a check! He's giving away secrets for free! Either that or go ski with him and get some direct coaching - that sounds fun too!

[Terry Winter]

@razorskier1 or you can sign up for my coaching site at http://www.trainwithterrywinter.com/ but really if everyone reading this can just send me a check that would work fine too.

[cragginshred]

Thanks @twhisper I will definitely be sending you a video for paid coaching not only as a thank you for chiming in here but mostly to get individualized feedback to my style and level of skiing!

[Terry Winter]

Great, if you sign up for the membership on the site there is also a steady stream of video tutorials that I am posting and a member's Q&A that you will have access to where you can always ask me anything and you can view all of the other members' comments and questions.

[Lieutenant Dan]

@Razorskier1 What do you mean by "stay up off the water"?

[Razorskier1]

@Lieutenant Dan - I grew up open water skiing and my dad told me the goal was to see how close I could get my shoulder to the water. Obviously that isn't constructive in the slalom course - tons of load, not as much speed (inefficient). It is worth understanding that as a starting point, although not necessary. What I am doing it making a conscious effort to keep my head and shoulder height, or distance off the water, as close to constant as possible through all aspects of the course. So when I go out for my gate, I change the direction of the ski, but don't "load the line" and put my left shoulder down. Instead, I keep my head and shoulders high, and let the ski direction and the boat do the work.

 

Similarly, when I turn in for the gate, I don't drop and load my right shoulder. I keep my head up and my shoulders level and change direction, again, letting the ski direction and the boat pull do the work of acceleration. By reducing my input against the line, I believe (and people who ski with me would agree) that I can be more efficient at generating speed, maintaining handle control, decelerating and turning. Everything is faster and better.

 

Not to be too long-winded, but a couple anecdotes. One, @Chet told me the first time I skied with him. "Why are you trying so hard to make your ski go after the turn? You can't make your ski go, only the boat can make your ski go. Stay on top of your ski, and use the power of the boat." Simple, true, and still required a lot of work for me to break my old habit of turning, loading, and going. I am far quicker ball to ball doing it Chet's way than my old way.

 

Second - watch video of the top skiers. While they may "load the line" at the maximum resistance point across the course, look at how far off the water their head and shoulders are, AND look at how little that height changes from lean, to glide, to pre-turn, to turn, to lean again. They are generating load -- the right load at the right place. But they are not "dropping the hammer" with their upper body/head and shoulders.

 

So - what I mean is that the more I work at maintaining a more consistent and upright/off the water head and shoulder position, the easier my passes become.

[Mateo_Vargas]

I skied with @twhisper a couple of weeks ago and on my first pass he immediately spotted my problem. Switching from Guinness to Coors Light in the summer is really working well for me.

[cragginshred]

@"Mateo Vargas" same amount of alcohol

[KDub]

Funny, funny @twhisper.

[KDub]

The part about writing you a check.