HO Syndicate / Edge Boot notes

[Horton]

For the last 2 years or so I have skied with the Reflex System and a white cuff boot and R Style rear boot. This spring I have been skiing with the HO Syndicate Hard Shell and the Edge Hard Shell systems. The 3 systems all use the Silvretta mechanical release.

 

The Reflex version has been the industry standard for decades. It is the choice of more elite skiers than any other binding product. The HO Syndicate Hard Shell and the Edge are a refinement of that classic Reflex design. There are a number of small improvements to the plate and how the boot fits on the plate that arguably make the new systems superior to the Reflex. Those changes are cool but for me IT IS ALL ABOUT THE BOOT.

 

The actual shell Edge and HO are using is what gets me excited. The shape of the shell simply fits my foot better. The biggest difference to me is from the ball of my foot forward. The HO / Edge boot gives a snug positive fit down there by my toes.

 

It is hard to measure but I suspect that the Edge and HO shells are more pliable and flex more evenly then the Reflex white cuff boot. I also LOVE the buckles. I get the same fit every time.

 

So yes I really really like the new boots. To be fair to Reflex, a different liner might solve my fit issue and I have not skied in the new Reflex Supershell system. I should also mention that my all-time best tournament score was with a Reflex White cuff.

 

So what is the difference between the Edge and the HO?? There are two real differences. The HO liner is far superior, the Edge is less expensive.

 

Get your Edge System at http://www.edgewaterski.com/

 

Get your Syndicate Hard Shell at PerSki or HOSports.com

 

Want to stay with the industry standard? Get it at http://reflexwaterskiusa.com/

 

[Horton]

[OldboyII]

This year I started Syndicate hardshell. This is my first plastic/releasable binding. Edging the ski and consequently cross course speed takes much less efforts. Cerrtainly will stay with hardshell for future.

My question:

Are there any recommendation for upper buckle: how tight it should be fastened?

[jhughes]

I'm really enjoying the new system as well, coming from a rubber boot. I thought the acclimation period would be way more difficult but it's nothing. Clearly an upgrade for me.

[disland]

Can anyone comment on the Edge system ability to stop forward flexion without the achililes strap?

[OldboyII]

@disland inside the back of the boot there are two elements looking like "Swallow's tail"

When cuff is flexing forward these elements go towards each other.

When they meet - boot becomes harder.

[MattP]

@OldboyII African or European Swallow?

[OldboyII]

@MattP African one is not a real swallow, it is more a sparrow )))

[Horton]

@OldboyII I believe that the HO guys* would say that the way the shell and the liner work together provides enough resistance to protect your achilles provided that your release setting is not over tight. If you chose the Edge system you might want to look at a upgraded Intuition liner for comfort and to mimic the way the HO liner works with that shell.

 

If you are really focused on achilles protection then that may be a key selling point for the Reflex. I feel safe in the HO and Edge products but we all have to make our own safety judgements.

 

*Holy crap I am not actually speaking for HO. If I got this wrong I apologize.

[OldboyII]

@Horton Thanks. If I understand correctly - upper buckle is more about release than performance?

The higher/stronger release is set, the more locked upper buckle should be?

[OldboyII]

Not like Reflex neither HO nor Edge offer parts of their hardshells (plate separately). It saddens. Emailed both to Edge and Perfski (where I bought it) - answer is negative.

I keep two skis on two different locations and so I have to buy another full complect or think about alternative.

 

[hogexpress]

I recently switched to HO hard shell after many years on RS-1s. Incredible how comfortable and snug the boot is. My foot doesn't slide at all inside the boot. I have so much more control over the ski. While I haven't released out of it....yet, I was curious why HO didn't put the strap at the heel to limit the forward travel of the upper cuff?? Seems to me that would affect the releasability of the boot?

[jhughes]

Edge will sell you a separate plate.

[OldboyII]

@jhughes they do not sell plates by itself, as it follows from their answer to my email.

As well as Perfski

@hogexpress I already had a chance to pass release test in OTF. The release is very nice and smooth and happens exactly in time when needed, not like rubber that could go only halfway (in some situations)

[hogexpress]

Thanks Dave, I'm assuming u are referring to the lumps/blisters in the interior of the liner that cup my heal and Achilles so nicely. Most comfortable boot I've ever had. Didn't think of that.

[perfski]

@OldboyII if you want message me and let me know what you are looking for plate size / foot forward boot you are needing...I'll inquire further up the food chain at HO. But from my understanding they ordered all the boot / binding systems 1-1 for the first year. But never hurts to ask...and go a bit deeper than the typical customer service call / email.

[OldboyII]

@perfski Thanks! Sent message.

[jhughes]

My hardshell experiment period ended today on slalom. By this time last year I had run countless -28's (and actually almost ran -32 just this March on rubber, 5.5) and I am just not running buoys on this baby. The system is very comfortable, as in "getting used to it" is not hard to do. I'm used to it completely and it "feels" fantastic. The odd thing is that it has taken away my 2/4 turn and my on-side wake cross angle. Isn't that crazy? 1/3/5 are terrific and I feel like my off-side wake cross is better than ever but on-side is just totally missing/not present. This includes turn-in as well which is probably killing me the most.

 

The other thing, just in the very back of my mind is that I don't think I'll ever trust this style and I think that is affecting my intensity. As in I could put in the work and tweaks to make 2/4 work better but I'll never trust it fully so it's back to rubber for me. I will move the Syndicate HS over to my trick ski for now.

[jhughes]

@Mark_Matis I'm using a RTP. I can't get my foot in any further because of the release which may be part of the problem, but again that's an issue in itself for me.

[OldboyII]

@jhughes I am not an experienced skier, nevertheless I will allow myself to make a guess.

HS as any hardboot is very sensitive to personal anatomic features.

Similar to alpine ski boots. If skier has bow or knock knee leg (even not noticeable) the ski may be loaded on one edge more that the other because HS cuff is strictly follows lower leg

 

Before you make final decision you may visit decent alpine workshop to check your front leg aligment.

 

My first starts in HS was terrible before I understood that some canting is needed.

The knee of my front leg (lff) is a few degrees outside therefore outside edge was loaded more (ski was not exactly flat in neutral position). Onside was Ok, ofside was nothing, water start needed enormous amount of concentration.

Since HS boot hasn't a canting options I put a 3 mm hard rubber gaskets between plate and ski (on the right side of the plate). 3 pieces with a hole for screws.

It solved all. When I will be closer to ski I will post a photo.

You may try it: check where your knee is pointing to - inside or outside and place gaskets on opposite side. It costs nothing, why not to try?

 

[Horton]

@OldboyII I am an experienced skier and I will tell you that I do not know any advanced skiers who cant their hardshells. Unless a skier has significant orthopedic issues I think this is not a good idea. It is a Fool's Errand.

 

You have to understand that modern hardshells are not really HARD. THey are designed to be pliable. The HO Syndicate, Edge System, Reflex and Goode PowerShells are all pliable boots.

 

[Horton]

@jhughes I think the issue might be binding placement. The measurement between rubber and Hardshells is not always perfect. You might look at where your FOOT was in rubber and where it is in the new boot and make sure it is the same in the ski.

[Jordan]

While there may not be many advanced skiers who cant their hard shells, there are a ton of them who have modified their boots. I suspect that those who lower the upper shell are doing so because of their shin alignment. the lower the boot top the less effected the ski will be by a shin that is not neutral.

[Horton]

@Jordan I understand what you're saying but I am unaware of any high-end skier who chopped down the top of their shell because of alignment. The logic that I have heard has always been about mobility or connection.

 

I'm stepping into this thread and being adamant on this subject because I've seen a lot of conversation in this forum from less experienced skiers advocating equipment adjustments that I personally believe are unwise. If somebody wants to chime in and tell me the pro coach that advocates putting shims underneath the binding to correct alignment I'd like to hear about it.

[jedgell]

Just got my Syndicate hardshell, from Perfomance! I have a couple questions. There's no rubber pad on the bottom of the plate, is anyone putting something on it to protect the ski? The screw heads that attach the boot plate stick out and figure they'll tear up the ski. Also, I've been using Superfeet insoles in my Stradas for years would you recommend the same in these, or are they not necessary? I'll be using a R-Style rear. Thanks.

[skialex]

@jedgell yes the screw heads will scratch your ski. You can redo the countersunks with the right countersunk bits, it is a delicate job it has to be done correctly in order not to hinder your safety. You can buy pads instead but pads keep the moisture between ski and plate.

[Horton]

@skialex @jedgell gell duct tape works. I know it sounds jackass but it is not

[jedgell]

Cool, I'll go with duct tape.

[skialex]

@Horton yes I know but in certain brands it would leave a stain under the duct tape which to me is as bad as scratches.

[ALPJr]

Why no pad?

[skialex]

@ALPJr you have seen skis with the boots removed having those ugly foggy looks to where the boots sits, pads do that. I'm not against pads l just don't like my ski looks old and worn out. I'm not talking about performance just looks.

[Booze]

Bondo

[Booze]

I used this reflex for years with size 12 and thin stock liner. I just replaced the release from new spare 750 plate, and did the bondo experiment. I'm impressed with the results.

The boot interfaces with the plate incredibly well now.

 

I also started using the HO this spring. I'm in A/B comparison mode now. I believe I'll stick with the HO because of the boot.

a) The reflex is too large in the toe area, whereas the HO is snug. (ie, reflex size 10 too small, size 12 too large....HO size 10/11 just right)

b) The HO transmits fore and aft movement "better". Not sure how to elaborate, it just seems to ski better in that regard.

c) The boot is more flexible overall (while still snug to foot) which I believe is good.

d) BUT, the HO boot while very comfortable and well built, is too thick in the footbed. It feels like 1/2 inch of foam, which is bad in my opinion. I want more connection to the ski, not soft squish. I've been using an old rollerblade liner which has a very thin footbed.

 

[eleeski]

@skialex I usually ski with bindings on my ski. So I never see the graphics under the binding. You might be a bit out of line.

 

This from the guy who paints everything primer white and never removes the protective coating of dirt.

 

Eric

[eleeski]

@Booze Use Superfil instead of Bondo and save some weight while gaining strength. Superfil is epoxy microballoon paste available from Aircraft Spruce.

 

Thick Intuition liners are certainly not squishy. Especially when heat molded. Intuition liners are snow ski technology where a lot more connection to the boot is needed. The molding improves the comfort and the connection. Worth a try.

 

Eric

[skialex]

@eleeski ok you are right but I might have a disorder, it is not about performance, I just want my ski to always look like new, clean fin fin box and rust free hardshell. However my boot looks very used with a lot of scratches after many years of use which I'm proud of, insane right?

Alex B)

[thager]

Get an old inner tube and cut it to the plate shape. Bond it with contact cement.

[Horton]

@DaveLemons the shells measure about the same* but different liners move your foot forward or backwards

 

*assume you measure from under cleat

[OldboyII]

Could HO boot be used on Edge plate and vice versa?

[Horton]

@OldboyII yes the hardware is identical

[ellenm]

Is anyone else having trouble with this system? I bought it just 2 months ago and the plate is cracked (badly). I took a big fall, but it shouldn't have damaged the plate like it did.

[savaiusini]

@ellenm If it is a Syndicate Hardshell, it would be the first time I've heard of the actual plate cracking. Your first course of action should always be to contact the dealer you purchased from. If that's not working, please email me directly (sam@hosports.com) and I can assist in getting you the parts you need.