Some questions on the Edge Change just happens or do you make it happen thread

[Chef23]

I have a couple of questions that popped to mind based on @AdamCord's comments from the Edge change thread. I can't post there so I started this thread.

 

First Adam said "Once you get hooked up and start your pull, you should be actively trying to stand up and get the ski flat and pointed down the lake as early as you can." I have always been taught that you don't want to ride a flat ski. Do you really want to get the ski flat or do you want to get the ski on to the turning edge and let it carry out?

 

My other question was on the width drill. When doing that are you trying to keep your work zone the same as you would in the course so no pulling after the second wake or are you trying to get the width however you can?

[Razorskier1]

Mark, try to get the ski flat by the second wake. What Cord is talking about is the process of moving from leaning edge to flat to inside edge over the course of your "work zone". This has a lot to do with handle path. For example, if I lean hard at turn in (not recommending this!), the handle path is still coming back to you, so the load you perceive can be relatively low. However, if you want to maintain a constant load, you will have to start coming up, because the handle path is turning away from your ski direction. Holding on the pulling edge will cause separation. At the same time, transitioning to the inside edge too soon will diminish width (height) and will create an arc that, once set, is what it is. By controlling the change and holding your ski more flat as you exit the second wake, you allow the handle path to determine your direction (you are just a weight at the end of the line). This is the place you want to go. Make sense?

 

BTW, all that we were always taught about not riding a flat ski is hokey, particularly with ZO.

[MISkier]

My favorite video for edge change, the transition at centerline, and handle control has always been the Wim DeCree at Okeeheelee video of 28 off through 39 off. There is a movement he makes sliding the ski forward at the centerline that brings it all together. I suspect he would really like a Denali. His technique seems aligned with it.

[RazorRoss3]

While visually I know what you are talking about, I don't believe pushing the ski forward is the intentional move. I think that is a bit of an optical illusion caused by handle path dynamics and the skier going from a pulling position with the ski in between themselves and the boat, to a tall position riding on top of the ski. Physically speaking I don't believe you can move the ski ahead of you without shifting weight back on the ski.

[Razorskier1]

The hardest thing about watching other skiers videos is often what we think we see is a result, not an action. In other words, doing a bunch of other things right results in "x", which is what we see in the video. This sport sucks! Why is it so hard?

[AdamCord]

My other question was on the width drill. When doing that are you trying to keep your work zone the same as you would in the course so no pulling after the second wake or are you trying to get the width however you can?

@Chef23 you aren't trying to get width. This is not a width drill, it's a pass the boat drill. With that in mind, I don't care how you do it, you just need to get as far up on the boat as you can. I think you'll find if that's your goal, as opposed to getting "width", where you do the work tends to work itself out.

@MISkier yes Wim is incredible at this.

[Than_Bogan]

I am very, very slowly learning that after -35, width is a total red herring and that you only want to think about height. I first learned this from Jamie almost 10 years ago, and I have now absorbed the concept at about the 10% level ... so just 90 years to go and I'll be an expert!

 

I know it's tempting to say that width and height are the same thing. I know this because I did. And it's true that (don super-nerd hat) the two have a monotonic relationship. However, at very short line lengths, there is a huge range of heights that have almost exactly the same width, making width a terrible proxy for what you want to accomplish.

 

Moreover, if you think about width, it leads to separation from the handle. If you think about height, it leads to effortless skiing (oh, and also width...)

[RazorRoss3]

To some extent is this admitting that as people with 1/25th of a horse power we cannot physically go a direction that a 350 horse power boat doesn't want us to ;)

 

When I edge change and just try to keep the handle close to my body I ski much better than when I try to force out bound (wide) direction.

 

[Wish]

Something Cord mentioned that stuck and perhaps a different way to click with others along these lines is that you can lean on/pressure the line and pull "your personal work zone" as hard as you like for as long as you like but you cannot have pressure/push/lean on the ski past the centerline. Many top pros still have lots of upper body pressure on the rope but their ski is almost flat with almost O pressure off the centerline. I think a misconception when trying to get a flatter ski sooner is to stop putting pull/pressure on the rope past the CL and sorta giving up the rope to the boat. One of the best examples of what it can look like below.

 

[skihart]

Is that the buoy just behind Nate in that pic? Can't be.....

If so look how quickly he got to the center line. Maybe my eyes are deceiving me.

[Edmund]

Sure looks like the buoy to me.

[Obrienslalom]

When I saw Horton's post, I thought of Seth's video. It certainly seems like it is an intentional move to subtly break the stack to initiate the edge change to cast out.

 

Of course, I'm not good enough to make this my focus or understand it. The instruction makes sense when I visualize before going to sleep each night though...

 

[sunvalleylaw]

It is seeming to me that some of the discussion in the advanced thread is different in some ways from how I understood Horton's original post. I understood it to mean that he moved his ski left and shazam, early edge change. Then there started to be talk of a flat ski (related also to handle path). So this seems a bit different from what Horton was saying.

 

 

Separately, it seems to me that rather than flat ski the edge still changed but maybe the difference might be low edge angle vs. a lot of edge angle at first, as opposed to truly flat? But maybe I misunderstand, which is why I don't post in the advanced threads.

[Ed_Johnson]

What Nate is doing above in the picture, is known as the Reverse C position. Something all the top skiers accomplish. @Wish describes it really well above, and Seth does a great job of demonstrating it. It is in my experience, the hardest move to pull off correctly that there is.

Having worked on this for years, there are some important things I have learned. The more forward pressure that I can get in my stack position, the easier it is to accomplish. By staying in the upper body lean when the pressure is greatest, coming into the centerline, just relaxing the legs and allowing only lower body movement from the hips down, the ski will accelerate forward/under, and out the other side.

However, on my offside pull, I very rarely can ever get that same forward stack, and therefore have to physically initiate the movement Seth demonstrates. It has never felt as automatic as the onside does.

Watching pro skiers like Nate, they are able to attain that forward leaning stacked position and create the acceleration necessary to pull this off. Truly a thing of beauty !!!

 

 

[UWSkier]

There might be something to the "ski the handle path" concept. I'm a big dude and probably maxing out my ski in terms of what it can support and still perform well. Into my offside, staying nice and connected with elbows tight is easy because my pre-turn move is more naturally following the handle path and my edge change just happens more smoothly. In my offside crossings into onside though, I've always struggled to maintain that connection and my reach doesn't start from elbow on vest. It's more like halfway between straight arm and elbow on vest.

 

Today I focused on "ski the handle path" which saw me transitioning a bit more smoothly and having a much easier time staying connected. It felt weird at first and I started having to deal with some slack until I got the rhythm of the more protracted reach... but this might have been my mental ticket... now just need to try to replicate a few days in a row.

[david_ski]

Back to the original question, for me the answer is Yes and Yes. It is an intentional move that you have to make happen, but it becomes a natural muscle memory move that just happens along with handle control. When I am working on a new line length, I have to really focus on my early edge changes as an intentional move to start getting consistency. However, after that new length starts to become easier, I think less and less about the edge change and it just happens.

[Razorskier1]

@UWSkier - one more piece of that puzzle is to quit pulling on the line as hard as we sometimes do. As I was once told, let the boat pull you. You don't create speed by pulling on the boat. You create speed by the boat pulling you through the water with an appropriate angle on the ski. For me, sometimes the connection is lost because I got all aggressive and just plain pulled hard, and in the wrong place behind the boat. I try really hard to think about just putting direction on the ski, resisting (rather than pulling), and letting the boat create my speed.