The Optimal Slalom Boot

[mmosley899]

@BraceMaker I have looked into that, a custom boot may cost as much as your ski! And we still have to come up with the optimum characteristics for design.

[Jordan]

@mmosley899 ... I know it's not a direct comparison but VH skates (now owned by True) originally a maker of speed skates and hockey skates as well makes a custom skate based on foot scans and measurements manages to retail a hockey boot for around $800 CDN ( boot without the blade and holder)

 

https://goo.gl/RDPrkf

 

[disland]

Given the ridiculous amount of modification required to off the shelf equipment it is clear the industry is no where near optimal. The newest boot by HO, which has a lot of hype, may actually be going in the wrong direction. This is interesting considering how much progress has been made in skis.

[dchristman]

@disland I would tend to disagree with "a ridiculous amount of modification is required ... no where near optimal". Remember this thread? There is a cost/performance balance that we each must judge for ourselves. The majority ski in stock boots and many of those ski much better than either of us. Distilling the features that yield optimal results for all is a difficult if not impossible task.

 

 

[mwetskier]

this thread does a better job than any other in recent memory of embodying the phrase ' everybody wants to buy a better turn '.

[disland]

@dchristman good point, but then maybe "most" skiers are living with a bad solution because they believe the manufacturers have figured it out.

[Than_Bogan]

Someday, 3D printing of highly customized shells will be viable, kinda like Design-your-own-T-shirt sites are today.

 

But I think that's a ways out.

[dchristman]

The heck with the printed shells, @Than_Bogan . They're already printing human bones. Just order up a new pair of feet that fit off-the-shelf boots ;) You will be assimilated.

[BraceMaker]

@mwetskier would waterskiing continue to exist if not? High end skis went from 800 bucks to 2000 bucks pretty darned quick!

 

Something that I think could solve a few issues in this field would be an injectable foam liner. Something like a two part EVA foam in a caulk gun tube with a mixing nozzle that would allow the user to put their foot into a "sock" that would go into the shell and have a tube in it. The user would then insert whichever insert/lift etc they wanted and stand on the base, the foam would be injected into the sock which would have an inner and outer membrane to contain the foam, which would expand and set.

 

In this way the liner would capture the shape/contours of the foot, allow the user to have the foot flat on an insert or flat on the base of the shell. It would then also "Fill" the shell, which is something that I think causes some shell fit issues - this is the "negative volume" problem where traditional heat forming of a liner causes it to shrink around your toes leaving voids under the arch, and around the toes - basically anywhere the shell isn't tight can have voids in the forming.

[gavski]

@BraceMaker - the injectable foam liners exists in the snow ski world, but i am mot entirely sure about their effectiveness...once again, a boot that is baldly/ not aligned to you but a snug foam filled fit is still no good....it’s just snug....

@disland - very accurate observation.

@dchristman - sad truth is that not even the manufactures have it figured out......

 

Found this from the Roxa Skates site - it is the Reflx Supershell:

What do you notice about the heel to toe height ratio??

Why do we have it mounted flat??

 

[skialex]

You would need to have the same ramp on the rear binding too. Maybe flat or flatten boot could be a better solution

[Deanoski]

A flat sole boot would be awesome

I flatten the sole cut the top add a cuff adjustment from a head snow ski boot cut the lower so you don't have to push or bend plastic to stand neutral I believe a big reason some skiers use heel lifts is to get to a neutral stance It is big $ to build molds that why we are stuck with roller blade type shells

 

[Jaypro]

I would curious as to what HO, Reflex, and Edge think about this hi toe low heel on the hard shell boots discussion? If this is such a big deal, wouldn't (shouldn't) this be corrected at the manufacturing level?

[Deanoski]

@Jaypro if they had unlimited funds yes they would build their own molds.

 

Much cheaper to just buy shells and bolt on the rear cleat

[mmosley899]

@Jordan I was talking about custom fitted carbon fiber boots...expensive!

 

@gavski that's it, the Roxa 720 ice skate, I choose that boot to use when I introduced the OB four system, then Reflex adopted it as the 'Supershell'. The heel is raised, but not as much as a lot of others.

 

@Deanoski is right, way to expensive to build your own boot in small quantities. Easier to just modify what is available. Since Reflex has tied up the boots built by Roxa, HO choose the next best available shell, a Valeo skate boot, another product that I had looked into. But I rejected it because of the height built into the heel. HO's boot cradle eliminates some of that problem. If costs is not an issue, custom carbon fiber boots will work if you can figure out the proper stiffness and design. To keep the price reasonable, we either adapt available products or build them more like sport shoes. Even that is not cheap in small quantities.

[BraceMaker]

@gavski superstructure all needs more flex. Base needs the rigidity.

 

[Adam Caldwell]

@BraceMaker I took a pair of shells out to Park city in the spring of 2009. My buddy worked for Surefoot at the time. We did make a pair of injectable foam liners for the shells. I believe they were fluid motion. The fit and control was amazing. However, it was a denser foam that was not closed cell. So it absorbed water like crazy. This tended to block foot splay, and turned the ankle into a cast as there was no 'room' for any movement above the ankle.

 

 

[powbmps]

Doesn't the Intuition liner already act similar to an inject-able liner? It expands when heated, and contours to your foot for a custom fit as it cools (in the boot shell).

[disland]

@adamhcaldwell 10 years ago I had surefoot build a custom orthotic made of rubber built into an animal boot I still use today

[dvskier]

SureFoot makes the best snow ski boots on the planet. I bought a pair this week and the control gained is worth the cost.

[Jordan]

@mmosley899 That's what the shell of the True VH custom boot is.

[aupatking]

@adamhcaldwell have you found any reason for needing rearward movement in your shell? I have not. I found, through catastrophic failure, that I flex pretty far rearward on onside turns. I have been testing different angles but, the bracket I was using to test forward angle, beyond a certain length, was too flexible and on an onside ball, pushed the release off the boot. It sucked.

It really sucked

Before i go further with a totally rigid forward setup, I was curious what your thoughts on need for rearward flexion were.

[Adam Caldwell]

I lock my cuff foward to 70 deg. Best solution so far has been to use a couple small strips of G10. I lower the rear of the cuff to where its not drastically smashing my calf. I know @AdamCord has his at a stock height. One thing I need to do though is to preserve 'crash space' in front of the ankle. Even though the cuff is locked, I still like a slight bit of travel. I lower the cuff buckle about as far as it will go and remove plastic as necessary. Without directly measuring, I I would say I can flex forward an additional 10deg before i pressure the boot excessively. Without the forward mobility, my HS turn suffers.

 

as a "Test" I have spent a week on a ski that is 'too big' for me - 68' c-65, mounted double radar boots, and have tweaked the fin until I could run 39 on it. Day one I was struggeled to run passes. Day 6 I have it dialed. A huge part of that was figuring out how to work within the performace window of the Radar boots without modification. Learned a pretty cool thing I am not sure people are aware of but it made a significant difference - for me- having ridden a kicker for the last 8 years. I will try to make a video about it to share.

[ISP6ball]

Thanks @adamhcaldwell. Look forward to the video!

[gavski]

a photo of your boot would be great as a reference to work against....

[mmosley899]

@adamhcaldwell I think a lot of skiers have a problem with flexing their ankles that much forward. Something that a lot of skiers need to work on is ankle flexibility. My daughter works in PT and says my ankle forward flexibility is greater than most patients across the board, and I'm 64 years old!

[ScottScott]

@mmosley899 seems as if the varying degrees of heel lift/shims talked about earlier in this thread assists where the ankle flexibility isn't so great....? Certainly work toward flexibility is a positive thing in all parts of the body to reduce injury.

[mmosley899]

@ScottScott the heel lifts help transfer pressure to the ball of the foot, ankle flexibility is still needed to move your COM forward when you flex your knees. Otherwise you still end up on your heels.

[JAS]

How would flat sole (i.e. toe touching base) effect release of Reflex? Seems like could be a problem.

[DefectiveDave]

I've flattened out the bottom of my boot with a reflex 750 release. I haven't had any issues with release due to the flatness of the bottom.

 

However, flattening the boot does change its profile and this affects how the boot fits in the toe loop. Mine had a lot of wiggle room after doing this and I had to wrap some duct tape around it to fill in the gaps. I also had a few cases at first where my boot slipped out at less than ideal times because I didn't have a tight enough fit into the toe loop, even with the duct tape.

 

Still, seems to work well now that I've got it dialed in.

[Adam Caldwell]

@ISP6ball -

 

I have finished 1 week of skiing on a 68" Denali, with double Radar boots. Objective was to learn what other people who use these boots are feeling on the water, and learn what tweaks could be made to optimize performance on the water. I chose a 68" knowing it was 'too big' for 36mph, but also knowing that it would exploit the shortfalls of the binding and I would find a solution quicker then I probably would have riding a smaller ski.

 

I made MANY fin changes the first couple days, but was a bit all over the place. I was mostly moving the fin to compensate for how much control and input the back leg was having on the ski. This is not a variable I am used to having to deal with in my RTP. And it was a challenge to decipher what things were 'fin setup issues' and what were 'boot setup issues'.

 

On the third day, I had settled in on the system/method for getting lacing up these boots. Things started feeling MUCH more natural. This made all subsequent fin tuning far more predictable and quickly got dialed into where 38s were feeling good and by day 5 I could run 39 again.

 

Originally, I was running the back cuff completely 'loose' , however it was so loose that it was just catching a lot of water and doing weird things at the finish of the turn as the cuff dragged through the water. But every time I went to 'snug it up' to keep it from dragging - my edge change into the HS turn and the finish of both turns would suffer a lot. I needed something to be different in that back boot.

 

I was able to come up with a method to keep the cuff of the shell a little tighter(so it didn't drag), but still have 'crash space' in front of the back shin to allow a significant amount more freedom and mobility in the ankle joint. This allowed far more articulation of the rear foot and ankle in a way that does not 'block' the skis rotation in YAW/PITCH/ROLL. When both the front and rear cuffs are tight, its as if the back foot/leg is constantly counteracting what the front foot/leg is trying to accomplish. Not a good feeling.

 

I have known for a long time that I can swap between my modified reflex and a front Radar boot, keeping a RTP as a common denominator, and run nearly the same scores with little to no adjustment period. However, when installing a Radar REAR boot I struggle to run a pass without large 30 to 50/1000 fin moves and 1/2" boot movements to dial it back it. (Given - that was before learning the proper sequence to tighten the back boot, so I will be interested to try this again down the road on another ski.)

 

Anyway, I am not sure if there is a video out already explaining the proper 'process' to these boots or not, but - this is what I learned and what worked for me to get the most 'optimal performance' from these boots.

 

[skiboyny]

Do you feel your front boot will release with this method? Do you feel that this set up has advantages (disadvantages) to your reflex set up?

[mmosley899]

@adamhcaldwell I think that is a pretty insightful discussion of the problems I started having using a full rear hardshell boot. And that explains why I have skied better since moving to a very low-cut half boot in the rear. The change does take a little getting a custom to, but I advise all double boot skiers making a boot change to go that direction.

[Adam Caldwell]

@skiboyny.

 

As a front boot, I find the Radar to be better then a 'stock' reflex out of the box in terms of 'perfromance'. In terms of safety, not so much.

 

Conversely, a well tuned hard-shell is an amazing thing that is tough to beat. Its what I would recommend to anyone.

 

Challenges with the Radar Boot.

- Even maxing out the tension on the boot - My foot still seemed to 'slip within the liner and the liner within the shell.

- I'm sure I was pulling them too tight, but the front elastic lace broke in half the 5th time I used it. Had to deal with a knot I put in it the rest of the time. - Not something I want to worry about happening on tournament day.

- No matter how I tried to secure the boot, the elastic laces seemed to get looser as the set went on. After the third day I started having to reach down at the end of the lake to tighten the boot back up, especially before short-line passes.

- The boot would put pressure on my instep and it was bothering me by the end of a set.

- No way to 'quickly' relax the boot tension on the ends and consistently get it back to the same spot.

- No clue how likely it will release.

- Difficult to disconnect and get your two feet out under water. I am barely flexible enough and buoyant enough to do it without drinking the lake.

- Not convenient for fin adjustments on the platform (this is a big deal for me....not sure about anyone else).

 

Things I liked on the Radar....

- The design of the boot has a natural forward flex to the ankle - like all the old rubber bindings.

 

 

Things I like about a 'well-tuned' professionally setup hardshell.

-Little to no break in period - and little 'change' over time.

-Can set tension on the buckle exactly the same every time.

-Fit stays the same the entire set.

-Can loosen the buckles to let the foot 'breathe' at the end of a pass.

-Can get the foot to feel extremely secure without 'crushing' from all sides. Pressure only from the top down (on a custom setup).

- Have complete control of release tension.

- Options to customize little things that can significantly improve and aid overall performance.

- Simplicity to get in and out of the boot, and also on and off the ski - great for access and egress in and out of the water.

- One shell can last over 1000sets easily (thats over a decade for a lot of people)

- Off the shelf parts allow for maintenance of the release and replacement of very inexpensive liners.

 

Things I dislike about a hard-shell.

- The lack of R&D and information behind the 'stock' boot leaving a lot of people with sub-optimal setups.

- Colors...not much variety.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[skialex]

@DefectiveDave I like what you did with your toe loop, even with the older loop with the spacers, still it is not enough to just remove them (the spacers).

What I do is, I take a 8mm clear hose piece, heat it in boiling water or with a heat gun and with the help of some silicon grease I slip it over the toe bar.

If this is not enough you can use a larger diameter tube over the 8mm one, it works but this is not something I would do.

With the use of a bench grinder or a dremel, grind above the threads to make the bar thinner (mark the piece you are going to grind and cover the threads).

Patiently grind that piece as round and level as possible and just a little thicker that the threads, then use tap and die size M6 to extend the threads, cut the excess threads if needed.

Or just take it to a machinist, but I think you prefer the DIY option. B)

[jedgell]

@adamhcaldwell - When changing from Reflex to Radar what are you doing with the binding position? I make the switch late last year from Radar to Reflex and struggling. I kept the same front binding location, maybe I need a change?

[Adam Caldwell]

@Jedgell - If I keep the kicker on the ski, I can swap out my custom reflex with the Radar at the same exact position. That is IF I use the MOST REARWARD POINT of the heel on both boots.

 

My reflex is not stock, which will make an impact. I probably would have to have a stock boot further forward at least .25" I believe.

 

You have to put the binding in the position that makes the ski ride at the proper attitude. Post some video or send it to me personally and I am happy to take a look.

 

[dchristman]

@adamhcaldwell or anyone else... any experience with modifying the Goode boot in combination with Reflex release? I know the boot is softer than the Reflex shell. Would useful modifications be similar?

[Adam Caldwell]

@dchristman

I have not. I think the softer plastic makes the Goode a little more forgiving in its 'stock' form.

 

There are always things to play with and learn about in any binding - good or bad.

 

[skialex]

Powershells are relatively softer than Reflex and their bottom is flat or flatter. I've modified one about 9 years ago to fit a Reflex System. With a little grinding of the heel to make it flatter and a heel block at the right height a powershell can fit a Reflex system.

Now you can buy a powershell with a Reflex release system on Goode site. I think Freddie Winter is using one with a Wylie's rear boot.

[dchristman]

So what I'm really asking is, now that Goode is shipping Reflex systems pre-built, is that boot, that has a flatter bottom and is more forgiving, perhaps a better starting point to get to optimal? Pros and cons?

[Adam Caldwell]

@dchristman I would think so. However, one huge aspect of the 'system' is the liner. A floopy liner can make the ankle mobility much better in any hard shell, but at the same time leave a lot to be desired in terms of volume/fit around the foot.

[Wish]

@adamhcaldwell so in an effort to try a Reflex system, I ended up with one that was to small. My foot would not fit with the Reflex shell with the liner. Not even close. It did however fit extremely well with just a neo sock (2mm.. I think) all the way around my foot. I added a foot bed (2mm maybe) and the floating tongue to press down on ball of foot and the fit is far superior to anything I've tried so far. And my foot is almost in direct contact with the hardshell considering only 2mm (less when compressed) separates my foot from the inner walls of the shell. But this posed a problem with the upper cuff as there is to much space with only 2mm sock that the buckle can't take up. So I found a...oh gosh maybe 7mm or more...think Michiline man...wetsuit top at a garage sale for $5 and cut off a sleeve and used about 4" of it and slid it over my ankle to take up that cuff space. So maybe like skate shells were not meant to sit on a ski without mod (the shell's toe up attitude), maybe skate and snow boot liners were not meant for this application either in some ways??. Your thoughts...

[mmosley899]

@dchristman I have a Powershell boot that I tried out with the Intuition liner. I did not find the bottom to be much flatter than the Reflex Supershell and even with modifications to remove the cuff tongues I felt like the boot was stiffer in lateral movements. But I have always preferred a softer more flexible boot.

[Adam Caldwell]

@mmosley899 - how does the overall cuff height of the Powershell compare to Reflex?

[mmosley899]

@adamhcaldwell this photo shows the Supershell, Powershell, & Vapor boots. The front height of the cuff on all three are very similar, but the back height is different. I had planned to cut the back down on the two hardshells, but haven't gotten to that. The last order of boots we got from Roxa for OB four, I had Roxa cut the back of the cuff lower. I think @Than_Bogan has a pair of those.

 

[gavski]

@adamhcaldwell - awesome video...very enlightening...now that you have found out what works, will this change your fin and ski set up numbers that you published with the new CG fin for “double boot”?

 

Are you now able to swap over the double vapor bindings to your hardshell and kicker and not change the fin etc??

 

Interesting that you can swap out the vapor front and your hardshell with no impact on your skiing or setup..

[dchristman]

As much as I object to frequent snow skiing comparisons, I think we need this:

(and I LOVE the intro "Engineering 101: if you can't measure it, don't talk about it")

[Adam Caldwell]

@gavski - the mods on my reflex more closely resembles the setup/configuration of a Radar boot...its just a hard shell so things are just notched up to another level of control/feel/performance.

 

Last night I went from the double radar boots to a "stock supershell 2.0" front. I struggled A LOT on the opening passes. I missed 28 and 32. But cut the line anyway to 35/38. Interestingly, things got slightly better at 38 then at 32. I think the additional roll angle of the shorter line made a big difference. But 39 was not going to happen. I felt I had the same issues I see a lot of people have in that boot. Riding the tail through the wakes. Falling inside into apex, and wheeling out of the heelside. What was really strange was the lack of 'sensation' of what was happening in the preturns. At least from what Im used to. I could tell the ski was rolling over, just because of the way it 'looked' under my body, but I couldn't feel it in my foot. My shin/leg was definitely in control. Not my feet. Never had a sense of pressure under foot until the finish of the turn and it was consistently only on my heel with a lot of big toe 'pull' to try to stay balanced to pull myself forward again.

 

This morning I cut the cuff down a bit lower and lowered the cuff buckle also. Mounted it on a different ski - a 67" and had no issue running straight through 39 with ease - on a ski and fin setting I've never previously used before. No issues whatsoever with getting stacked through the wakes or being in control of the ski in the preturns and finish.

 

The boot is SOOO important. It can make skiing feel very natural when its right, and extremely hard when its not.

 

 

[gavski]

@adamhcaldwell - What an amazing discovery...i have cut down the outside of my boot by another 5mm or so...not wanting to do anything by halves, i drilled out the ankle rivets and pulled to boot apart..the plan is to align the cuff to my lower leg. I have worked out a neat ankle rivet replacement that will allow easy removal and refitting of the cuff and a way of adjusting the lateral cuff cant...i also sprayed up the boot in Denali colours..but i am not convinced that i have the right shade of blue...

 

Anymore thoughts of whether you are now able to switch between a double boot to rtp with little or no change in set up?? Does your recent double boot revelation change your thoughts on the different ski set ups?