The Optimal Slalom Boot

[Wish]

Hmmmmm......

.

 

[gavski]

@adamhcaldwell - what liner do you use in your hardshell? And how did you cut out the bottom and still make it fit the boot/ your foot? I have a spare strada liner that i might experiment on....

[Adam Caldwell]

I used an aqua intuition liner for the last 10 years.

 

Recently between playing with boots and bindings I did jam an old strata liner in my shell. It has a much thicker tongue so the first set was not ideal. But, after cutting the bottom of it out, and making a bit more mobility in the shell cuff to create some volume and crash space, it seemed to work out okay and has been in my shell for the last 5 or 10 sets. I like that the radar liner is a bit more firm and less floppy then the intuition, but, it can make the boot a little too stiff in the ankle if your not careful.

 

FWIW, on every Super-shell Ive seen, the front toe buckle does not get very tight without popping open. The solution to that is to remove the screw that mounts the buckle and relocate it to the outter most hole. I think it also helps to lower the entire buckle a little bit as it gives more mechanical advantage to stay latched. They mount it in the middle for some strange reason and you cant put any tension on it without it popping open.

[Deep11]

Apologies if everyone thought they’d seen the last of the boot questions!

I have just had first set on my new supershell and R style setup (new vapor) moving from double vapors. After reading all the stuff here i got the front boot set up so it feels the same, and just as comfy with generally downward pressure all along my foot when the buckles are done up, as the radars. There is no restriction to forward ankle movement at all - its now probably easier than the vapors to bend forward. In the course actually all felt OK - I’m just running 14s (28) because its damn cold and i just want to condition myself a bit and get used to the new set up before the season starts in a month - did it miss any.

The most noticeable main issues are:

1. the starts - i am RFF - when the pull comes on from the boat the ski tries really hard to go to the left and under the rope (it managed it once and i failed the start).

2. Turn in from glide - the ski wants to stay out there (probably on the left edge), so less control and more tricky timing to turn in.

My view is that whilst my foot is pretty much on the hard shell (just the liner) that this is clearly favoring pressure on the left edge. My question is should I go buy a heat gun, start padding out with orthotic foot beds, or is there some other idea I haven’t picked up on?

(With the super shell and moulded plate i cant adjust or turn the shell to favor weight distribution at all.)

 

Many thanks for any ideas :)

[Adam Caldwell]

have you lowered the top of the cuff at all?

 

The back of the cuff on a stock super shell is very high, and overall the cuff is much higher then the radar. This alone is enough to create some of the instability issues you talked about.

[Deep11]

Thanks for the reply Adam - that was my initial thought (the shin pressure was influnceing things) but the cuff is nice and loose in first clip (I have embarrassingly thin ankles!) and Does not seem to be putting any significant lateral pressure. What it “feels”like is that when my foot is relaxed there is too much pressure on the ball and inner heel. That said cutting down the right side of the cuff is kinda easy to do - more so than heat gunning the base. I’ll dry everything out and fiddle around a bit - would just like to limit the “water trials”.

 

Thanks again,

 

Kevin

[Adam Caldwell]

@Deep11 - What liner?

 

Pressure on the bottom of your foot is good - as long as it is at a point that allows you to sense your balance. Your brain/body will adjust pretty quick to that sensory input. Pressure on the sides of the foot and or instep not so good.

 

The Supershell is very hard to flatten out on the base. A lot more work then the black reflexes.

 

If alligned to 'neutral' on the base plate - the Radar boots are toed in a little more then the supershells. Unfortunately its not 'easy' to change that necessarily on the reflex.

 

FWIW - you wont notice 'lateral' pressure much. It takes very little force from high up on the shin to overcome the roll stability of the ski. Its something that when you go from a super low cuff to a excessively high cuff, you'll notice differences in ski behavior immediately, but not necessarily feel any-sort of pressure from the sides of the leg.

 

[Deep11]

Thank you very much for that Adam - cuff cutting will be the first step.

[Adam Caldwell]

@Deep11, May be stating the obvious, but as an exercise, consider how 'forgiving' the soft shell radar boot is. Then couple that 'forgiving soft flex' with a low cuff. Moving the shin laterally over the ski in the Radar will not impart a significant force through the cuff. The roll is controlled more-so by the foot, and how far you move your mass laterally over it. Go to an old school low rise rubber slip on boot, and ski roll is entirely managed by the foot and not the shin.

 

With the Reflex we have an opposite extreme. Very tall cuff that is significantly stiffer. When we move laterally in the Reflex, the leg is causing the ski to 'roll' almost before the forces from the foot ever come into play. In a stock Reflex the lateral input from the shin is significantly magnified by the tall hard-shell cuff.

 

Obviously, there are advantages and disadvantages to all boots. We just need to find the happy medium without swinging too far in one direction or the other.

 

FWIW, This picture below is of Mapples boot in 2011.

 

Mapple had the top of his reflex cut very low, with the buckle relocated even lower as seen in the photo below. This allows for more lower leg movement above the ankle in all directions to improve balance and mobility, and allow for the foot itself to be the majority of the controlling input.

 

Took me a while to understand why he was doing this inside the boot, however after playing with it in my own equipment and studying boot R&D for downhill racing - there is ample supporting evidence as to the benefits of these mods, as well as others. If you think the boot mods we are recommending are crazy or off the wall -thats fine, but here is rock solid evidence that one of the greatest skiers in the world was able to figure out how to make a hard-shell work for him better then the rubber boot he used for a 20+ year career as a pro skier. This was his last revision of the boot, which as I understand, took him several years to dial in.

 

 

Andy also had a cut the bottom of his liners out and had a hard, very thin piece of plastic sown in as the base. Youtube video of him talking about his boot here.

 

Quick story regarding his comment in the video on not needing the front buckle to be tight...My foot is about 1 size smaller then Andys. One afternoon at his place I slide my foot into his shell to see what he was feeling with his boot. The material he had in above the toes was a piece of the hard marine decking from Nautique. Not the soft SeaDeck. The volume in the toe area was so small it felt like I was trying to jam my foot into a kids size 6 snow ski binding with a size 10 foot. He didn't need to buckle his toe because he already had the volume very restricted. So - take the comment about not needing the front buckle tight with a grain of salt. It may not need to be 'tight' and pulling from the sides, but you certainly want some element of pressure or force coming from the top down to keep the ball of the foot planted onto the ski.

 

 

[AdamCord]

About that last part @adamhcaldwell mentioned. Andy and I had almost exactly the same size feet, about 11.5 shoe size. I use the size 12 Reflex (XXL) but Andy used the size 10 Reflex (XL). I tried multiple times to put on his boot and was never able to cram my foot into it. He may have run the buckles loose, but trust me when I say that shell was suuuuuper tight over his foot.

[Brewski]

@adamhcaldwell @AdamCord Here is a link to the page on the Hollow Body system I built a few years back. I am open for discussions and looking forward to working on more of these projects. Lots to talk about. https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/13586/kohensports-custom-water-ski-boots-and-hollow-body-ghost-plates/p1

Thanks to @mmosley899 @Wish and everyone for the interest and helping promote my talents

 

SS BOOTS

Kohen Sports

ROBERT "BRUCE" KOHEN

Phone: (573)-808-1451

E-Mail: kohensports@yahoo.com

[mmosley899]

I lowered/cut down the cuff on my Supershell and Powershell...just need some more warm weather!!

 

[Wish]

With my latest messing around with set ups (see my March 2nd post), for the first time I can feel the hard bottom of the shell with the ball of my foot. The skate liners never allowed for that. The difference (magnified) is like balancing on the ball of one foot on a hard floor vs the same balancing act with a pillow between your foot and the floor. With the pillow in place, watch how your foot twitches around trying to find a balance point vs being directly on the floor. I think there is something to this. For obvious reasons liners need to be in skate boots and snow ski boots do to the extended wear time. Not so sure all that extra cushion is needed in a waterski boot and may be counter productive.

[BraceMaker]

Welcome back Bruce

[Adam Caldwell]

@mmosley899 - still nearly 3/4” higher then the mapple setup - too bad reflex doesn’t just sell the cuff, would be a lot easier to play around if you had spares.

[Adam Caldwell]

@Brewski

 

Have you made a rear boot with no cuff? More similar to an Rstyle rear?

[mmosley899]

@adamhcaldwell I have a pattern to make cuffs by, I will order some material and experiment.

[Brewski]

@adamhcaldwell when I first started making speedskating boot that is what they looked like no cuff with a built in pad.

[Brewski]

I find that on my current set up on the RadioActive A3 (orange ski) I don't have to tighten the speed laces on the rear or use the straps at all. I come out of it most of the time but sometimes the release goes off. Really safe feeling to know I am double protected so to speak. On the rear the side to side leverage is all you need. The knee has to be able to drive forward as much as possible, and when tightening the straps and laces it inhibits the dorsiflexor and does not allow the knee to go forward freely. It would be fun to try a clap mechanism from Long Track speed skates on there but may twist because they are not made to take the kind of torque that slalom will put on them. We could easily build something similar that would hold up. The Goode rear toe that lifted up on the heal slightly was a start but not sufficient. The open R style is on to something but needs to be improved on. JMHO

[Brewski]

@BraceMaker Thank you~! Good to be back~!

[Brewski]

@adamhcaldwell This is what custom boot are all about you nailed it on the head. They never wear out. Thousands of Colors and styles to choose from. Completely dialed in to the skiers individual foot/feet out of the box.

 

""""""Things I like about a 'well-tuned' professionally setup hardshell.

-Little to no break in period - and little 'change' over time. NO BREAK IN ON CUSTOM

-Can set tension on the buckle exactly the same every time. NO NEED IT FITS YOU SO WELL

-Fit stays the same the entire set. AEROSPACE ENGINEERING THE BOOTS NEVER CHANGE

-Can loosen the buckles to let the foot 'breathe' at the end of a pass. DONT HAVE TO THEY FEEL LIKE A 90MPH HOUSE SLIPPER

-Can get the foot to feel extremely secure without 'crushing' from all sides. Pressure only from the top down (on a custom setup). SPOT ON EXTREME CONTROL OF A SPEEDSKATING BOOT THAT CONTROLS A 1.1MM BLADE

- Have complete control of release tension. REFLEX RELEASE OR ANOTHER SNOW SKI RELEASE CAN BE USED.

- Options to customize little things that can significantly improve and aid overall performance. 100% CUSTOM TO THE CUSTOMERS LIKING AND CAN BE MODIFIED EASILY TOO

- Simplicity to get in and out of the boot, and also on and off the ski - great for access and egress in and out of the water. INDEED

- One shell can last over 1000sets easily (thats over a decade for a lot of people) APOLO OHNO WENT 7 SEASONS ON THE SAME BOOTS SKATING THEM EXTREMELY HARD EVERY DAY. NEVER A REPAIR.

- Off the shelf parts allow for maintenance of the release and replacement of very inexpensive liners. NO LINERS AND EASY CHANGEABLE BUCKLES AND SPEED LACES

 

Things I dislike about a hard-shell.

- The lack of R&D and information behind the 'stock' boot leaving a lot of people with sub-optimal setups. BEEN THERE DONE THAT FOR 20+ YEARS NOW WE NEED TO PERFECT IT!!!! EVERY PAIR SKIS BETTER AND BETTER

- Colors...not much variety. THOUSANDS OF COLOR COMBINATIONS~!! """"""""""""""

 

[aupatking]

@mmosley899 , come down south, I owe you a set already. Plenty warm. @adamhcaldwell Send me that 68 when you’re done. I’ll test it further. I am curious, the first time you pinned your boot forward Adam, did you find it put you in an odd position? I’m trying to find the optimal angle, for me. I’ve found what’s comfortable on dry land put an incredible amount of tip pressure on the water.

I see why the cuff HAS to be cut down

[Ed_Johnson]

@aupatking .... What I did to lock the cuff forward, was stand on the ski on land, get in what I felt was the knee forward staked position, have my Wife outline the cuff to the boot with a sharpie, then bolt it into a locked position. Turned out to be 22 degrees from vertical and has worked perfectly for months now.

 

[Adam Caldwell]

@aupatking

 

A high cuff that is locked forward to the appropriate angle may cause some issue at the finish of the turns. Definitely works better with the the cuff lowered.

[Brewski]

Control works from the center of the ankle bone down. The custom foot bed with out any foam make for spot on initial control side to side. The cuff does not need to be much more than 25mm above the center of the inner ankle bone to offer addition detention pressure side to side. Sometimes due to injuries or calcium deposits the bones are taller and yield a taller boot. Some ankle bones are super low and some super high so boots have to be built according to the user for optimum performance. The top strap on my boots can be made static which will have a definite pressure to the front of the ski point like the limiter straps on some of the Reflex boots, and by just removing one carriage bolt the strap will move forward and backward more freely with the dorsiflexor still putting pressure on the tip but not so pronounced.

[mmosley899]

@adamhcaldwell @Wish perhaps this is the liner you are looking for... Mesh bottom!

 

[Deanoski]

Mike, who makes that liner?

[Adam Caldwell]

Closer. But I doubt that mesh would hold up long. Why is there a need for a bottom at all?

[Brewski]

Why is there a need for an external liner? Padding should be an integrated part of the boot not a disconnected liner.

 

[mmosley899]

@Brewski so I don't have wet smelly boots to put on next time, I dry my liners and boots out after I ski.

[Adam Caldwell]

A texture underfoot creates better balance, control, feel, etc. Its science.

 

http://nabosotechnology.com/whybarefootscience/

 

 

 

[Wish]

Hmmmmm....wonder what the back boot is?

 

[Brewski]

@mmosley899 My padding does not absorb water like liners so it is dry when you take the boot off and does not ever smell. The synthetic suede super grip White Lightning base material is antibacterial and dries super quick also.

 

[dchristman]

@brewski do your boots float?

[bishop8950]

I really appreciate the quality of the content in this thread. I will totally be experimenting my boots this spring because of this thread. Thanks to @adamhcaldwell @mmosley899 @Brewski and many others for the excellent input.

 

My front ankle is weaker and more fragile given a few injuries from no release crashes. So I run my front Reflex pretty tight to protect my ankle. But I know I have little input from my foot and am driving from my shin. I also know I would ski better if I could use my foot more. So hoping I can achieve both. I will start with making Mapple like mods to my cuff and fully expect it to ski better and hopefully feel protected from too much forward mobility (which hurts my ankle). If anyone else has any other thoughts I would appreciate it.

[bishop8950]

@Brewski those red boots are a masterpiece. How do you get the foam installed and molded? How stiff is the tounge and how much forward mobility do you have?

[Adam Caldwell]

@Bishop, keep us posted. One nice thing about the locked cuff position is once you have it 'set' there is much less travel the leg will make in a ankle crushing type of fall before the release mechanism is activated. IMO, it makes the system safer - also, with a lower cuff, you can run lower DIN numbers without risking pre-release.

 

It wouldn't hurt to do some barefoot or minimalist shoe running to help strengthen the foot and ankle.

[Wish]

That's what I'm having to get used to. Been in high stiff cuff hard shells boots for so long that my ankle strength just isn't there yet. Anyone transitioning should be aware that this may be a factor and one that may make you want to go back to double boots or high cuffs.

[Ed_Johnson]

@adamhcaldwell ... On your Naboso inserts, are you using the 1.0 or the 1.5 inserts ? Also, will they work with a thin liner like Reflex has, or do you have to cut the bottom of the liner out to get the effect ? Thanks, ED

 

[Adam Caldwell]

@Ed_Johnson

 

I do not use those in my boots. IMO, a foot-bed is unnecessary and just creates extra surfaces to slip around. I just cut the bottom of the liner out completely and stick a piece of grip tape (cut to shape) like you would find on a skateboard down into the bottom of the shell.

 

Conceptually it is essentially the same thing as the Naboso inserts. I guess if you had a radar boot where bottom of the shell is not flat underneath the liner, it would make sense to use a Naboso type insert down in the liner.

 

A cheaper alternative would be to simply grab a thin piece of plastic, then cut into the shape of a foot bed and put grip tape on both sides. Insert that inside the Radar liner. Should be better then nothing.

 

I shared the Naboso link for anyone who wanted to read more about the theory behind it and performance benefits it can provide.

[Brewski]

 

@dchristman Yes they float.

@bishop8950 There are several different layers of foams some stiff some soft to make the perfect ankle system. They are all thermo and molded to the skiers foot casts before manufacturing the boot, then glued in with some serious shoe glue during the manufacturing process. Toungs can be made soft for maximum forward flex or stiffeners added to get more tip pressure. Regardless they allow the knee to drive deep forward just like the Olympic speedskating boots where dorsiflexors need to go DEEP~!

[bishop8950]

Getting ready to play with front boots. Won’t have results for a while given I am just starting to ski. But dug out the parts and coming up with ideas. I will mainly be looking for more forward mobility to get more foot vs shin inputs. Hoping to not give up any ankle significant ankle protection.

 

Interestingly the old fogman boot in the foreground feels great. I haven’t put it on in 10 years. With the lower and softer cuff and the slits in the lower shell it seems like it would be sweet. Some work to do to fit a reflex release block on the heal though.

 

I will also play with back boots but thinking about starting with the front. Back is currently a modified HO Animal and I will be trying the D3 Black Out, the Reflex R Type and the new D3 kicker.

 

 

[Wish]

Pic from on line Mens Health Mag. If padding makes this exercise harder, why are we skiing with liner padding under foot?

 

[Chef23]

@Wish I think this makes some sense but if I stand in my running shoe with my custom orthotic in it even though the running shoe has some cushion in it I am just as stable if not more stable than if I am barefoot. I think if you are on a real cushy soft liner it can be an issue but for example my Radar liner with the footbed in it doesn't seem to move around.

[Adam Caldwell]

Im not sure stabiliy correlates to our ability to remained balanced.

 

@Chef23, would you agree that a plaster cast is "stable"? Stability means 'less moble'. I think we could stat that if something is 100% immobile that its 100% stable. - Hence why we use plaster cast to heal bones. It imobilize the joints and ability to 'move'.

 

Consider a plaster cast around your foot. -Can balance on one leg very well?

Make it more stable by making the cast taller up to the bottom of your knee. - How well can you balance now?

 

Footbeds are enoug to imobilize the bones in the underside of the foot. They take up volume (crash space) under the arch that allows them to splay out under load to activate muscle and tendons we use to manage and balance our COM above the foot.

 

If we are trying to balance on an ice skate - something very very very unstalbe with nearly zero roll stability- it makes sense to add stability to a boot so we do not break an ankle while we try to balance on a very small edge.

 

However if your foot is on a big wide waterski that already has significantly more roll stability then an ice skate or rollerblade, having an overstable boot can hinder our balance rather then help it.

 

 

[Chef23]

@adamhcaldwell what are your thoughts on a boot like the Radar Vapor vs a hard shell? I know you wrote up your review on skiing on a Vapor earlier but to me the Vapor seems much less stable than a hardshell. In addition doesn't fixing the forward cuff on a hardshell make the boot much more stable which seems to run counter to what you are suggesting regarding stability.

 

I am in an older Radar Strada but it is past its shelf life so I will need to make a change this year and I am trying to sort out which way to go. I am leaning toward a new Vapor because I have been very happy with the Strada (I have had 2 of them over the years) but I also have a Reflex boot on my trick ski I could shift to the slalom.

[BraceMaker]

I chalk my models too @Brewski helps see what changes you make, although I've also tried to find something that would absorb like a dye such that the color would change as plaster is removed.

 

I'll be digging my last shell project out later this month got side tracked in winter.

[Adam Caldwell]

@chef23 - I do perform 5 or 6 mods to the cuff on a hard-shell, and they are all to reduce the stability of the cuff and increase range of motion of the shin in 360 degrees above the foot.

 

@mmosley899 came out to TL yesterday and we had a great discussion about this very topic. Mike was able to share a lot of great info and history and lessons learned over the years playing with boots/binding systems. Boot R&D is as complex as ski development, and quite possibly even more challenging to understand what the 'right' solution is for our application within the constraints of a slalom course.

 

FWIW, I can directly swap out a front radar boot for my modified reflex and run the exact same score with a RTP (as measured from the most rearward point on each boot). I would say that the mods to my harshell move it in the direction of Radar in many respects. The pitfalls with the radar boot are more related to it used as a back boot as there is almost too much force transfer from the rear shin that overcomes what the front foot/leg/knee are trying to accomplish. My belief is that the more the rear radar boot is broken-in, ripped, and softened up, the better it will be.

 

Note: That if I put a stock hard-shell on my foot with zero changes, I am lucky to run a respectable opener, if even a single pass beyond that.

 

I use the 'hard shell' to create force from the TOP DOWN (like if someone held your foot doing sit-ups) and remove things that would act to immobilize anything under the foot. I would argue that we do things like lifting our big toe to keep balance. Having something very firm to lift the big toe against actually can really improve for/aft balance and reaction time & control of the ski. The bottoms of my liners and some material from the sides is removed to crate space/volume under the foot for the arch to flatten, and lateral space for the fore foot and arch to splay out. This helps transfer load to the ball of the foot much in the same it would happen in any old school rubber binding.

 

The forward fixed cuff is not for balance. It purpose is to help control the skis direction and rotation relative to my front knee. During the preturn. I want the 'resting' position of the ankle to be biased toward forward flexion. Fixing the cuff at a similar angle to the Radar and older rubber boots helps the ankle to be actively flexed when the ski and body are unloaded in the preturn. This naturally helps keep the knee bent and shifting weight over the front foot. Improving predictability, consistency and repeatability of the transitions the preturn.

 

The height of my cuff is cut down significantly as to reduce its fore aft stabilization into a more appropriate range. Note that a thinner liner with less volume allows more range of motion but can leave too much volume above the foot. Thicker liners reduce volume, reduce range of motion and can be over stable. Some mods may not be necessary with a thin liner, but I don’t have one to play with.

 

The number 1 reason I use a reflex system is safety. If I put a Radar boot on a reflex system, I would be making mods to improve its ability to create downward force on top of the foot. The stiffness of the Radar boot abouve the ankle is about right, and it provides good range of motion. They did a good job of matching up the stiffness of the outer shell with the stiffness and volume of the liners. Downside is that to get the feel I am looking for underfoot I have to make it so tight the parts break, or worse, prevent a release in a dangerous crash.

 

 

 

[Chef23]

@adamhcaldwell thanks great insights.

[Jaypro]

@adamhcaldwell wouldn't a system like MOB work well in that situation? That way you could use a Vapor boot and still get a mechanical release?