The farther you lean / pull past centerline ...

[ozski]

Ok for myself I keep it as simple as I can, load off the ball and aim to release the ski at center line but maintain the handle pressure. I don't ever think about outbound direction - ever. There are two points I will offer, the right ski and setup will make this work really well as will being high up on the boat and getting a good gate. The shorter the line the more important and effective it becomes. Counter intuitive until you learn to trust it. I like this image of Larkin, it tells a story.

 

 

 

[Horton]

@adamhcaldwell you can thrash me all you want as long as someone learns something or gains a deeper understanding.

 

My objection to pulling up is based on seeing skiers who have a ton to strength pull themselves into bad positions before and after the CenterLine. My ideology is based around trying to keeping the handle as close as possible to my COM as long as possible. Excessive bicep work before that wakes seems to result in falling back and after the wakes it seems to disrupt the the flow out.

 

The above image of Larkin looks to me more like resisting more than pulling. To me that is ideal.

 

Ok edumacate me.

[aupatking]

From a shitty skiers perspective, if I can keep the handle connected to my hip everywhere but the ball/actual turn, and just change the plane of my body and ski at the right time, I would run -41. Taking very real things like pitch and yaw out of the thought, and pretending the ski roll angle and skier angle are the same, further simplifies the thought. I think a lot of skiers reach in/become disconnected as their plane begins to angle toward the boat. It’s difficult to illustrate how this is putting the brakes on, making the skier slower and narrower. I think that’s a different topic though.

As it was mentioned earlier, what speed is needed to get to buoy width at 28 mph, or less for that matter? I have a skier who I’m trying to coach out of the lean against the boat after center line, even after the second wake. In @Horton’s YouTube videos riding the Katana, you can see he easily gets the needed width at those speeds and transitions early. I can’t remember what the line length was though. That is a big factor too, I’m sure. But, that video is eye opening about the correctly timed transition and the outbound swing it gives.

 

[Adam Caldwell]

@Horton - Definitely know what you mean about excessive bicep engagement before CL. Certainly can be counter productive. But bicept engagement shouldn’t be something to avoid completely, it’s just learning when and where it’s appropriate. Those that do that simply need to learn how to better connect and time the Downswing into CL and save that big bicept curl for after.

 

I think “resist” certainly works. As long as were resisting the centrepetal force that would otherwise separate you.

 

An effor to resist with the arms straight/relaxed and not actively “pulling on the rope” is definitely not going to work as well just pulling the handle into your body to keep it moving around the pylon.

 

 

I know this topic is something Joel has worked on a lot since 2013ish and one reason he got so good so quickly. Can see him on the instagram pic below already on the buoy line the moment his hand comes off the handle. Call it resist, pull, or whatever the heck you want. I think Joel says “I keep my shit ‘together’ as long as possible”. But the reality is, if that handle comes away from your core before the buoy line you’ll never get in this position at shortline.

 

https://instagram.com/p/BhQ17gxHpd4/

[Chris Rossi]

Sorry if I get too technical here but.....

 

Start wide on the gate glide with a rope that is not slack

Turn so that I end up in a strong leveraging position (from as wide as possible)

Lean with the goal that my most leveraged lean comes at the first wake

Change edge right behind the boat

Hold on to the energy I created out to the buoy line (Ride the line)

Reach

Repeat

 

 

I think of being on a swing set. The better I can connect the dots, the tighter the rope stays, the higher on the swing I can go with that tight rope. This provides the most potential to generate speed from wide which is the name of the game (IMO).

 

* While skiing, I've found I can only think of a few one word concepts. For example:

 

1) "Wide"- This is basically a constant and reminds me to start wide on every pass

2) "1st Wake" - This reminds me where my max leverage comes

3) "Hold On" - Don't want to give up all the energy I just created

 

* Then to make things more interesting, on the majority of my best completed passes, all I remember thinking was "wide". Its like a dream you wake up after but can't remember the details but you know you were dreaming.

 

 

[Mateo_Vargas]

I think I’ve found my problem. On the majority of my passes I am thinking “Beer”!

[JAS]

CL happens so fast. Could edge change be thought of as “depowering feet/legs” without changing position. Then sounds like you attempt to become a tether ball. (Good example of how rotation speeds up with shortening rope)

[andjules]

@Wish I almost posted that TW @ 1/4 speed video near the beginning of this discussion. It's subtle-but-interesting to compare his -32 and -39 passes; he seems to hold his downswing edge a little longer at -39 (the "power zone" is so short), but at the same time, the edge change happens more quickly.

 

It's also amazing to watch his body at the transition: knees and elbows move a lot, but shoulders/torso are almost perfectly still.

[Horton]

@JAS I like that thought process

[AdamCord]

@JAS and @andjules I think you’re both touching on the same concept. Good stuff

[Adam Caldwell]

I honestly believe most people are here to learn. Oversimplification is a disservice to what this forum is about. I'm still learning something new everyday and still trying to figure it out. Its the only reason I log onto this site.

 

Anyone who has gone through an engineering program knows what its like to spend a months going through formulas with a mile long list of variables, complex theories, and wrapping your mind around a bunch of rather highly abstract concepts. Then to get to the end of a chapter lesson only to learn that it all boils down to one sweet, simple formula. The problem is, without having learned the theory, there is usually no understanding of the formula and how to apply and utilize it.

 

Slalom skiing is exactly simple, but its far from rocket science. It just might feel like rocket science when you try to apply a simple formula without the hours behind what it took to figure that out, either on the water or off.

 

Take time learning the theory and you will boil it down to a simple formula that works for you. Rossi's list for example is short and sweet, and works great for him. But no doubt there are 1000ths of hours and sets to iron those key elements out for him.

 

In this sport, you have two choices. Ski thousands of sets or put the mind-space and attention to the detail and theory and find a formula that works for you.

 

[Adam Caldwell]

YES! @JAS - be the tether ball.

 

This is what a powerful upswing connection looks like after a well connected downswing. There is a reason this guy is the best in the world. He is great at being a tether ball.

 

 

The rest of us are much better at being the fat guy on a rope swing and getting separated on the way into the bottom of the downswing. Try to be less like this guy and more like the guy above.

 

[elr]

@AdamCord @adamhcaldwell So when does this become relevant for beginners and kids?

[Stevie Boy]

I believe, I have acheived this a couple of times recently, but it seems easier to achieve into a strong head wind, probably because mentally you know you have to ride the handle to the bouy or else you are not going to run the past.

[Adam Caldwell]

@ELR, I have taught it to people working on 15 and 22 off.

 

The most important thing is to understand the differences in HOW to be connected to the line on the way into center and the way to the buoy line.

 

I think its a skill/understanding that should be worked on as early as possible. It will only make things easier along the way, and prevent a lot of really bad habits along the way.

 

I hope someone got a chuckle out of that rope swing clip!

[elr]

Thanks @adamhcaldwell ! Coach this with the shorten the rope/get high on the boat drill?

[Adam Caldwell]

Certainly. Downswing energy is priority number one to produce a strong effective upswing.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

So the real question is who took the video of Horton on the rope swing?

[Chris Rossi]

@Stevie Boy If you are only able to do it in a strong headwind, chances are that you're staying on your "pulling edge" too far past center in general. The moment the handle passes center line (right behind the boat), it changes direction and starts swinging in toward the next buoy. If we get on the "turning edge" of the ski at that point and hold on (like the pictures @adamhcaldwell posted above), we can ride a tight rope out to the buoy line where we don't give up the energy we created from turn to center line. When skiers complain about their form behind the boat and getting separated from the handle through the edge change, this is the byproduct of staying on the pulling edge past the center line. The skier and handle paths are going in different directions after center line, thus a drastic increase in rope load felt by the skier. The result of this is getting yanked to the inside of the handle path which causes a loss of rope tension. Once tension is lost, the skier has no choice but to glide on the path they are given and hope to make a good enough turn to find the tight rope at the finish of the turn. You can still make a good turn from this path, but it requires a hard skid at the finish of the turn to bend the arc of the ski to match the ideal line. This hard skid gives up speed right where we want to be accelerating, not to mention it takes a lot of skill from the skier to accomplish this without falling!

[Stevie Boy]

@Chris Rossi Thankyou . you are spot on, explains the seperation regardless how hard I try not to get seperated, your explantion, does explain very clearly what is happening to me, I do make the turns but they are hard and fast with a ton of load as I re-connect.

Looks like I have work to do.

[ski6jones]

This thread has been very helpful and enlightening.

[DefectiveDave]

Regarding @AdamCord earlier comment, "You can easily have 600lbs of load in the rope on the 2nd whitewash, but no load on the ski. In fact, you should strive to have that."

 

This can be verified with a little math and I think it's informative to walk through it. Radial acceleration (the acceleration you experience when traveling around a fixed point at a constant tangential velocity) is represented by (velocity*velocity)/(radius) or v^2/r.

 

Say you approach centerline @ 38 off with the boat @ 36 MPH while traveling at an approximately 45 degree angle (which should imply you've built good velocity into centerline). This means your velocity tangent to the rope is equal to the boat's speed of 36 MPH. So doing the math:

 

36 MPH = 36 MPH * (5280 ft/mile) / (3600 seconds/hour) = 52.8 ft/s

 

v^2/r = (52.8 ft/s)^2/(75 ft - 38 ft) = 75.3 ft/s^2

 

(75.3 ft/s^2) / (32.2 ft/(s^2*G)) = 2.34 G

 

So you would be experiencing 2.34 G just due to the radial acceleration. This would translate into a centripetal force of:

 

(Total Skier Weight) * 2.34

 

For a 200 lb skier (counting ski, vest, etc.) that's 468 lbs. You can readily get to 600 lbs if you add a little weight, get more than 45 degrees going into centerline, or shorten the line. Even repeating this exercise for 15 off @ 34.2 MPH you get 260 lbs.

[AdamCord]

@Gloersen keep in mind that we are accelerating into CL, so you can't average the speed over the arc from apex to CL. The other part of this is that Zero Off reacts to speed changes, meaning the skier slows the boat down when first starting his pull, so the boat is gassing as we pass through center and accelerating in order to keep a constant average speed, thus increasing the rope tension. 600lbs is certainly an exaggeration for most skiers, but I'd be willing to bet Freddie Winter and Will Asher hit that regularly.

[Stevie Boy]

@AdamCord , I guarantee Jon Travers hits it all the time, the Man is a Beast behind the boat.

[DefectiveDave]

The only data I'm aware of to help answer this question would be Wade Cox (53.5 MPH @ 38 off and 36 MPH):

 

https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/17093/short-line-how-critical-is-gate-speed

 

@Horton (~50 MPH @ maybe 35 off and 34.2 MPH):

 

https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/comment/183607

 

@Tap (~44 MPH @ 28 off and 34.2 MPH):

 

https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/17730/pylon-tracking

 

I don't think any of the data is perfect. @Horton is on record that the Trace couldn't keep up and the timing is off in the videos. Also, while I trust the measurement's on Wade Cox, I don't think we know where the peak velocity occurred.

 

With @Tap's data we see a constant radial velocity of something like 0.7 rad/s for a period of time with the peak velocity occurring significantly after centerline. I think this makes sense because we are measuring absolute velocity, which would increase if angular velocity remained relatively constant (or decayed slowly) during the start of the upswing.

 

While Wade Cox's 53.5 MPH would imply an angle of attack = 47.7 degrees if it occurred at centerline, it would be less if it occurred later like @Tap's data suggests. I'm excited to see more data from @Tap's pylon tracking if possible.

[tap]

@Gloersen @DefectiveDave you guys got me thinking. I ran a load cell and positional tracker so I can split the total measured line load into the centripetal force and the 'applied' force then plot both of those out. Might help illustrate @AdamCord 's point. Then... we could use the two values as a pseudo means to measure skier efficiency by looking at a ratio value of centripetal force (output) / 'applied' force (input), if all that makes sense. It'll be a few days before I get the time, but could be interesting.

[gt2003]

Going to put some of this into practice tonight.

 

These threads are so valuable, especially to me as a long line skier. It helps having the experts explain things in various ways, many times one of which clicks in my brain. Looking forward to being on the water tonight!

[gt2003]

@Chris Rossi and @adamhcaldwell , for those of us that have yet to run the course, would you suggest keeping both hands on the handle at all times? I've had this suggested to me (15 0ff, 26mph) but am not sure if I'm doing myself any justice by adhering to said advice.

[Adam Caldwell]

@gt2003, letting one hand off the handle looks way more awesome.

 

Do what you feel necessary comfortable with.

 

My first time I had no idea. I had never let go of the handle once in my life after free-skiing on open water for 15 years with two palms down. I was the definition of a "wally skier"

 

On my first attempt in a course, without knowing any better, I let go just to be able to reach and not loose balance to get my ankles around a ball, and then grabbed back onto the handle in a normal slalom grip. Mind blown.

 

Running the pass with two hands in a great training tool, but not necessarily right or wrong.

 

At the end of the day, just be athletic and do what you need to do to get your ankles around those buoys.

 

 

[Deep11]

@adamhcaldwell this has been a really interesting thread and I think my question applies here.

Assuming that we are on the upswing racing the boat - how much are you happy letting the boat pull you over to the inside before you feed the handle out?

This is not about maintaining connection to race the boat but specifically being pulled over (not “in” - shoulders still square to the course) and the amount of “lean” you have towards the wake before you turn, vs the amount of lean you have after the turn. Seems to me that its one less variable although there seems to be an argument that the “taller” you are before the turn the better as you can drop into the turn? In my head though the issue is that for a tight effective turn we need to get our mass - which is sliding out the way - to slide back in towards the wake, ready to accelerate on the downswing - I’m unsure which method would be more efficient ?

Any thoughts ?

[Adam Caldwell]

@Deep11, not sure if this is the answer your looking for but....

 

The further around the pylon (radially) you can travel before beginning to, or needing to 'release' the handle out - the more upright you will be at the apex and finish of the turn.

 

Being tall is a direct result of not letting the ski out from under you too early and staying connected to the rope well beyond the half way point to apex. If nothing is under you supporting you, what are you going to be standing tall on? If you aim to lean in too early, then you have no way to be 'tall' at the turn. Note: Half-way-point is not half way to the buoy line in terms of cross course width. Instead, think of the half way point in radial displacement relative to the boat. For example, if degrees is the minimum required radial displacement necessary for the handle to reach the ball at 35off, then you must sustain the connection to the rope beyond 30degress or the mid way point. This is why 38&39 and 41 are so hard.

 

The ability for our COM to start to travel back to CL is a function of the ski and timing on the boat. If the ski is getting the proper rotation of Yaw/pitch/roll in the preturn/apex, then the ski will support your COM and you can ride back into the downswing to CL with ease.

 

IF the ski is still pointing outbound at the ball and your still moving in the upswing, then you have nothing to help bring you back to CL when you pass the plane of the buoy and you will likely be leaning in like crazy to force a turn.

 

NOTE: I see a lot of people who have learned to ride skis by leaning in very early out of necessity. Its the only way to make the ski work. Meaning, the ski setup is wrong, and the only way for them to get the ski to start turning on time is to throw themselves to the inside edge very early. If they do what is "technically right", often times they just sail past the ball and dont finish a turn until 50' downcourse. This is super frustrating for anyone learning to ski - and why its well worth the time and $ to visit or communicate with a coach on what changes might be appropriate to make with the fin/ski setup.

 

Not every skier has the same skill set and strength, and ability to generate swing. In the situation above its likely the skier doesn't have enough speed before CL for the ski to be slipping/rotating/banking adequately during the upswing. The appropriate fin moves to improve the situation would be things that increase yaw, pitch and roll rates and loosen the grip on the tail of the ski. First this will help them build more speed into CL, and second will allow them to stay connected more easily in the upswing with the ski automatically starting its rotation in the preturn without having to force a 'lean' to roll it over.

[sfriis]

SUPER thread, Im learning a lot, however I don't buy the "downswing" "upswing" concept - that it should be any easier to get angel/speed in the "downswing" - we are skiing round a pylon yes, but it must be the angel of the ski compared to the direction/power of the boat that matters - and this possible angle/power must be greatest in the CL?

 

But the sooner we build and carry speed the less (total) time to cross the course and the more space... (therefore we prefere to pull/lean max before the CL)

 

@Bruce_Butterfield and @Chris Rossi nails this in my oppinion....

 

Like a race with cars - the most important is speed out of the curves. Simple to read and understand - take a lot of practice to perform.

 

Maybe stuff for skijays next book :)

[Adam Caldwell]

@sfriis - You can carry all the speed in the world through a turn, but if your timing with the boat is wrong, its completely useless. You can not build speed if the rope is slack off the ball. Still traveling in an upswing on the boat while trying to turn the buoy only gets you a couple buoys at your hardest pass. Not all 6.

 

Downswing & Upswing is a merely a 'concept' to help people understand two things:

1. Timing between skier and the boat

2. Directional change at CL and Apex

 

Its a method to shed light on the fact there is a very real change in direction of the handle at CL and how they as a skier play into the timing of the rope swing moving around the pylon as the boat travels down the lake.

 

Your comment about ski angle is right on. But...... If you roll the skier over after the buoy or gate turn in before you have support from the boat in the downswing, you will get too much angle without enough lift/pull/support end up sinking the ski and end up separating before CL.

 

MAX angle with MAX power is not the secrete to shortline. Its an optimization of both in a sustainable manner so that you can carry energy into the upswing without breaking the continuity with the rope prematurely and killing the potential to reach max width early.

 

More speed/power at CL does not always equal SPACE in the course if there is early separation.

 

Mapple would always say, the harder you pull into CL, the harder you need to pull after CL - no matter what. His point being, the more energy you create, the more likely you will separate and you better be pulling hard (body to handle) to stay connected. He wasn't intending that to mean you keep the ski on a hard loaded cutting edge to try to get wider.

 

Its very possible to take less speed&angle and yet create more space - simply by staying connected longer and sustaining a higher swing speed to apex.

 

May I politely suggest a re-read of some of these ideas described in here before throwing the concept out the window. I promise you, your only doing a disservice to your own skiing and limiting your own potential.

 

[sfriis]

Point taken,

I promise you I'm not throwing anything out the window :)

 

I'm just saying what wording makes more sence to me - and that upswing and downswing and hence, the pendulum/gravity effect that comes into my mind - doesn't help me understand the importance of timing, speed, angle, staying connected etc.

 

But perfectly ok to describe where the skier is compared to CL

[Adam Caldwell]

@sfriss, Come on down to Trophy sometime!

[andjules]

@sfriis with respect to:

I don't buy the "downswing" "upswing" concept

What I've found extremely helpful is the upswing part: that if my ski is rolled away from the boat past the CL, I'm essentially "draining" energy that I built in the downswing, and I won't get as high on the boat, as quickly. The conceptual innovation here is that for years, a lot of coaching (understandably) has emphasized keeping your "outbound direction" in an effort to ski wide instead of narrow; while there's some truth there, the problem for me (and I suspect others), is that this emphasis tempts me to keep my ski rolled away from the boat after centreline, essentially trying to get my ski on a different path than the handle is going to take. The only way to resolve the handle going one way and the ski going another is for my body to absorb the difference (letting my arms out, getting "separated", which essentially lengthens the pendulum, losing energy/intensity/velocity). By staying "tight" (resisting with my arms) but NOT resisting with my ski (past CL), I lose/drain the least amount of upswing energy.

Does that help?

And @adamhcaldwell, is that a valid interpretation?

[Adam Caldwell]

@andjules - I feel like this thread has done its job! That is a fantastic explanation and is a great way to conclude a lot of elements discussed here.

 

Your right. The real truth behind what a transition really is has been highly misunderstood for a long time. Better understanding the transition dynamics (the change of direction in the early stages of the upswing) we can better optimize our efforts in the downswing to setup for success as we ski through the second wake.

 

Very cool!

[Andre]

@andjules

aaaaaaaaaaaaaah !

I got a feeling that something just clicked in my head. Well written and kept simple.Thanks!

Too bad ice is still 12'' here ...

[mwetskier]

not long before his death andy mapple produced a video in which he discussed the relative paths of 28 off versus 38 off. heres a screen cap from that video clearly showing some of what @adamhcaldwell has been talking about in this thread:

 

 

[skihart]

@mwetskier Where can I find that video?

[Lieutenant Dan]

@skihart

[Adam Caldwell]

@mwetskier - yes, that is a good video for sure and an awesome perspective to highlight the differences between the skiers into the buoy. We are certainly not the first people to try to communicate this point/concept by any means.

 

I have experienced it on HUNDREDS of different skis over and over and over. A ski that feels great at 35 will usually struggle to run through 38 and up. The demand on roll, pitch and yaw stability change quite a bit between long line and short-line.

 

I really believe this concept needs to be more well known so skiers have a better opportunity to progress in the sport. We have been too conditioned to believe that the "stock" settings will run all the passes. For 95% of skiers- they dont. Plain and simple. There are a few that miight match up with size/weight/etc and things work out better then others, but I would still argue that things are far from optimal.

 

Fin settings that 38&39 well are harder to run clean, early, tight 28&32 passes on unless you ski the pass very aggressively. That is why you don't see Mapple ever go 'easy' at 28....same is true for most higher level skiers.

[Wish]

Denali is the only ski company I know of or have ever heard of that has 8 different fin/boot settings for the same length ski. Differences depend on your boat speed, line length range, and boot type (double boots or RTP). To me that makes a lot of sense to supply skiers with such a detailed and well tested variety of settings as starting points.

[Andre]

That video was shoot and put together by @SM who also made the winter waterski videos...

[gavski]

@adamhcaldwell - so how do you know if you have a ski dialed in for your hardest pass? If i am running easy b2b 32’s, working and drilling all the concepts above, how do i know if the ski will perform at 38’ off?

[Adam Caldwell]

@gavski. Put the rope on 38. Stick with the game plan on the gate setup & timing. Attack the course and see how far you go at 38 and what the struggles are. Then move the fin a few thousands to try to correct issues or improve on what happened at the 38 attempt.

 

Next set out don't expect 28/32 to be flawless or as clean. Just run the passes and cut the line and see if what you changed improved things or made things worse at 38. Then repeat.

[Ed_Johnson]

I know when I discussed this very thing with Andy some years a go, he was convinced that you set the ski up for 38 and "ACCEPT" what it gives you at 28-32-35.

 

 

[bradb]

Don't mean to change subjects on this discussion because it has been very helpful.

But if a ski feels really good at -28 and -32 is there a specific direction you should start moving the fin to make -35 and -38 your target setting?

Or Is it different for every individual?

[Adam Caldwell]

@Gloersen

 

Be very careful with that observation. Its important to recognize that his hand is not coming off the handle until the ski is well beyond the second whitewash with lots of momentum.

 

The reach is early in terms of 'way up course', but he has also already traveled nearly 2/3 of the way to buoy width before releasing. Your 100% right that he is able to do that because of energy created in the downswing & the connection through the transition outbound.

 

Just be aware that it can be a slippery slope to a lot of bad habits to emulate an early reach without already being wide on the boat and approaching buoy line width a mile up course of the ball.

[acmx]

Like Chet says, let go to get wide, or get wide to let go, the latter being the goal.