wingless

[Jody_Seal]

Any one skiing with out a wing on their fin set up. If so what ski and why are you going wingless.

[dbutcher]

This may not be of much value to you because you ski faster than I, but I have tried going wingless. I didn't think I needed a wing at my slow speed (30.4 mph), and I probably could adjust to it. However, I ended up going back to a small wing (made smaller with a grinder) set at 6 degrees. My ski is a 68.5" Mapple 6.0.

[vernonreeve]

I'm on a 69" 2017 Radar Senate Graphite and don't use the wing. I'm 6'2", 205lbs, and ski 32mph. I tried it with the wing on first, but it felt like it had brakes on. It feels like I can carry the speed out and back much easier without the wing. I've heard the wing isn't necessary until you get to 34mph 32off.

[Stickman]

I've been told by several people over the years that the benefit of a wing does not come into play until 34 mph - 28 off. Personally, I've never had a problem slowing the ski down.

[escmanaze]

I've had guys tell me the same thing, but then the next week some other guy tells me that the wing still adds stability even if it is set to a very low angle such that it wouldn't have much/any "braking" effect.

 

Which one is true? Ya got me???

[TEL]

I ski with a neighbor of mine that skis 28 and 32 off with no wing I’ve seen him run 35 off no wing with a tight line.

[ntx]

A key point here is that even with the slower boat speed, we are still talking about very short rope. My guess is that with the larger ski needed for the slower boat speed, at -38 (even if at only 30mph) off you still need the wing to help slow the ski into the turn. Smaller angle and smaller size makes sense in the case of @dbutcher

[allycat]

i don t use a wing but weigh 250 pounds and only ski at 32mph have a radar senate 71 inch felt like i was riding a boat standard settings removed the wing moved the fin forward and up .its a great ski now but at faster speeds and short rope lengths i would put it back on i think i get out of control then

[OldboyII]

Brakes were invented by cowards ))

[blagrata]

I ski a 69 inch HO CX superlite. When I first got it two years ago I took one set with the wing on. Ski felt strange... but... it was also a new ski to me. I took the wing off... it felt like it ran faster. I was skiing 28-30 at the time. Last night I decided to put the wing back on ... I am now skiing 32-34. The ski felt more stable into the turns with the wing on. I only put it at 2 or 3 degrees (didn't have a measure... so just eyeballed it). I had also read a few places that the wing wasn't needed until 28 off or so. For what it's worth last night I thought the wing made the ski feel more stable... and I skied well. I think I'll leave it on.

[SkiJay]

@escmanaze

Both are true. The wing adds stability at all speeds, AND you don't need wing-drag until line lengths get shorter. Both are true because stability and braking are two distinct benefits of wing use.

 

Stability doesn't refer to the ski's directional stability. It's more about having some extra drag to push against for improved feel and balance. The slipperier a surface, the more likely we are to lose our balance on it. On a ski, this "lost balance" mostly shows up as the ski squirting out ahead of us leaving us on our back leg in the cut or wheelieing out of turns. Being able to stay well balanced over our front foot can be made easier by adding drag with wing adjustments. This adjustable force feedback can benefit all skiers at all speeds.

 

BUT ... while more wing-drag makes balance easier, it also puts on the brakes. The reason we often hear it's best for novices to take the wing off is that shortening the line beyond -28 doesn't happen until a skier learns to generate serious amounts of speed behind the boat—excess speed that needs to be scrubbed off before the next ball.

 

If you can barely make it across the course in time for the next ball at 30mph, excess speed is not your issue. Generating more speed is the goal. So the last thing you need at this stage is to ski with the brakes on.

 

So here's another way to approach this wing debate.

Is you goal to get as many balls as possible every time you ski? If so, then removing the wing will help you get across the course faster and to carry more speed around each ball. It will also fine tune your sense of balance on the ski in the process. You'll know when you need a wing. It will be when your pre-turn starts at the second white water, and you are still so fast at the ball that your ski keeps blowing out. For some, this wasn't until -38!

 

If, on the other hand, you really struggle with staying balanced over your front foot, or your goal is to develop your power to accelerate as quickly as possible, regardless of ball count, maybe a more stable ski will provide some extra confidence and consistency to your efforts. Skiing with the brakes on may cost you some balls early on, but it can also force you to develop the technique you need to generate true power a little sooner.

 

I don't think there's a right or wrong here. Some people are born gymnasts with cat-like balance and reflexes. Others are blessed with abundant aggression and power. Regardless of your approach to skiing, the end goal is to develop enough speed that you actually need the wing's braking effect. So the real question is "which philosophy best suits your personal approach to getting there?"

[jimski]

Pulled my wing of today for three passes felt quite a bit faster in the pre turn to the ball. I'm thinking A little bit of Wing will be more stable than no wing

Maybe 7 deg rather than 9

-28,34 mph 70 deg water

67 vapor 2018

 

 

[SkiJay]

@jimski

Good on ya for trying it. FWIW, I agree that less wing feels better than no wing. But I love that you tried it, cause there are insights to be gained from some wingless skiing.

 

Two related thoughts. One, there is still a meaningful amount of drag all the way down to 5° if you are looking for more speed without giving up all of the stability of a wing. And two, are you too fast in the pre-turn because a) you gained so much more speed before crossing the second wake? Or b) because you tend to pull long into a late edge change? If it's "b," skiing wingless builds more speed before the late edge change, then scrubs off less of that extra speed before the ball—a worthwhile insight into an issue worthy of attention for future progress.

 

There is a school of thought that spending some time without a wing forces skiers to do things that are good for their technique; things like moving the ski through the edge change sooner so a longer pre-turn can have more time to scrub speed off before the turn, and climbing more up over the front foot to better stay ahead of the ski around turns. Riding wingless can actually make it easier to change edges sooner because it takes less core effort to move the ski past the rope behind the boat, and it makes getting over the front foot a little more challenging. Getting used to earlier edge changes and learning to proactively ride balanced over your front foot are both essential skills.

 

I was doing some fin testing with a top coach this spring, and he went out without a wing by accident, and ran an effortless set full of sweet, wide, early -32s. He felt something was different, but thought it was the fin I'd given him to try. Going wingless was a non-issue for him because he already changes edges well before he is out of the second white water, and he always climbs all over the tip of his ski into and around the ball. With his excellent technique, the wing's braking effect wasn't remotely necessary for him at 32 off.

[Ed_Johnson]

Not totally wingless, but today I rode my NRG with the CG Fin with a little Mini Wing set at 5 degrees. Everything @SkiJay said is true. The NRG felt as fast as the EVO, with great carryout. In fact, edge changes at 28 -32 off started at the first wake, with time to eat a sandwich before the ball. So much less effort.

 

I've been testing ski's for the last two months and finally feel I've got the right setup to "Efficiently" go run some buoys. Can't make anymore setup excuses, time to put up or shut up !!!

 

 

[jimski]

Thanks for the insight @SkiJay and yes that's me, B all day long.

I will sit wingless a little more to see if I can break the habit.

[Jody_Seal]

Liquid-D cornered me at the states last weekend basically said the same thing about a wing on a ski it was much appreciated and very informative.

Being very heavily back footed on my ski due to Talipes Equinovarus the challenge is never ending. Over the years to compensate many ski binding mods have been tried, lifts,out of the box fin set ups and even ski modification.

Ordered a new Vapor in Jan with a second set of inserts a 1/2 inch farther forward. This has really helped as I can now run pretty standard fin settings however after a shoulder injury and the availability of ZBS i have been skiing at 32mph. Removed the wing when the water started really getting warmer. Starting to take some shots at 35 off I feel the ski for me carries more speed out to the buoy line and does not fall off so fast in the turn, far less speed drop at the end of the turn and easier pick up off the ball. Every thing seems to be better without the wing however have tendency to blow out the tail on my off side turn. From Mikes suggestion I am going to install a mini wing and set it shallow, will see if that helps minimize the tail blow out...

[SkiJay]

@Jody_Seal

It's widely believed that wing angle helps keep the tail of the ski pulled down into the water while turning, and that this helps avoid blowing out the tail. But this photo shows the water flow hitting the bottom of the wing, not the top. The wing is actually adding lift and support to the tail, not pulling it deeper.

 

What causes the tail to blow is trying to turn too tightly by yawing too much tip into the water and/or too much speed into the ball. If taking off the wing causes the tail to start blowing, it's likely because of too much speed and cranked turns, and the drag a wing adds might be exactly what you need at -35. And if you like the extra speed you have without the wing, experiment with lower wing angles. 9° is just a widely used norm, not a requirement.

[vtmecheng]

@SkiJay, I believe that figure may not be correct. To be honest, I haven't completed fluids analyses since college almost 20 years ago, I'm more into structures and shock. That said, water can't follow through the ski. I believe that as the skier pushes against the ski an area of high pressure develops on the side facing down course. Since the ski bottom is at an angle and not perpendicular to the boat direction, the water will move along the ski bottom and over the edges. The water moving towards the tail will reach the wing only if the region of pressure is large enough to extend that far beyond the ski's bottom. I'm guessing it is that big and I would have to think more about how it influences the water and what different angles means for this. Maybe one of the ski designers here could help out a bit or explain how all of this post is wrong.

[jimski]

Put the wing back on today at 7 deg

Felt way more stable from the second wake to the ball a little slower than no wing but faster than 9 deg this was a good experiment to try I'll stick with 7 for a while. If I can quit pulling long to the ball like @SkiJay noted I'll be in good shape

[jimski]

More experimenting

Pulled the reflex white cuff off the back and put on a Wiley's

Blew 2 starts couldn't run a pass at -22

Gave up

[Ulmskier]

I have been skiing wingless for the last 6 years at 36 mph. I would highly recommend giving it a shot if you're around or over 200 lbs. I will say running beyond 38 off without a wing is fighting the odds of success. In other words, you create a self-imposed cap to your score at some point; however, your body will feel better and you will have no problem keeping your ski in front of you. Rear kicker and no wing! Let the good times roll!

[BraceMaker]

@jimski after going to a hardshell I cannot use a wileys anymore. Foot slides forwards in boot unless we downsize till pain country