ski tuning input requested

[disland]

Any ideas on how the ski can be tuned. Skier feels unbalanced at 2 4. 35 off 36, 67" D3 quest

 

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Good news and bad news. Its not the ski. He's dropping his hips and letting the handle out too soon coming off the wake. That puts more weight on the back foot, drops the right shoulder more and definitely creates an "unbalanced" feeling. Do a few freeze frames at similar points coming into 135 and compare to the same points into 24. Handle is definitely farther out coming into 24.

 

If you do find a ski adjustment that fixes this, let me know - I need it too!

[disland]

Thanks Bruce

[AdamCord]

You have to close off during an offside pull coming into the wakes if you want any chance of staying connected through the transition. Get tall, lead with your sternum, and hide your left shoulder from the boat.

 

 

[jayski]

Sorry but I cannot buy into the "hide the shoulder" scenario...most skiers will definitely have a more pronounced "closed" upper body on their offside but I would bet the elite level are not trying to make a conscious effort to hide that shoulder. For those of us with less ability than those shown odds are it will lead to copious amounts of out the front crashes. That movement is easy to do with most already being closed, but more than likely will cause the majority to not be "stacked" as stated above, which is a much greater benefit to ones technique and subsequent results in the course.

 

 

[Wish]

@jayski trying to understand your post. It looks like you posted pics that look exactly the same as what Adam posted. Is it just wording of "hide the shoulder"? How would you go about getting someone to move from that "skiers" shoulder angle (almost level with water) to the pics you posted (especially Nate and Will)? There is a notable diff in shoulder angle from the "skier" and the pictures you posted.

[BraceMaker]

@jayski I've been told by 3 separate ski coaches the same advice as @AdamCord . It's not "be closed" it is be more closed than you are or your shoulders are too open to the boat. All of those photos are a few feet prior to centerline and look more closed than the still shot earlier, or atleast they will be mere moments later.

[Horton]

@BraceMaker very well stated.

[BraceMaker]

@Horton it's my peeve with people linking coaching videos on YouTube that don't show the skiers set .

 

I do think a lot of skiers are too closed, but there are alot myself included that Google videos that are 10 years old that say something completely wrong for the skier who's listening to it.

[jayski]

"Leading with the sternum" as Adam stated is pretty much as closed to the boat as one can get, not sure how one can call it any different when one is to point the center of ones chest to the opposite side of the course...which none of the pics has any skier doing so...biometrically there are very few that can swivel enough on a offside pull to be "open" to the boat, except maybe Marcus back in the day, he is/was twisty for lack of a better term

 

@Wish being that one is coming into an ONSIDE turn it is relatively easier to "move" as you stated. Perhaps the theory is backwards as an individual has more issue "moving" into proper position in ones offside turn so "hiding the shoulder" on your onside pull may aid in that scenario??...also if the general consensus is that onside pulls are naturally more "open" to the boat and correct, why would we go polar opposite for our offside?

 

@BraceMaker is it not the teachings of the Adam's (and others) that one should be "edge changing" by center-line hence the argument for your center-line position is negated. We all should be transitioning...correct? Anything else is the result of a technique flaw?? To engage in the "coach said" I have not had any of the dozen or so I have visited say such a thing or any of the skiers that are capable deep 39 and 41 off skiers I have the honor of skiing with try purposefully to "hide the shoulder", they might all be wrong though, time will tell...

 

Perhaps someone can answer the question that if one is to be shoulders level through the turn, refraining from "dropping" your shoulder or "blocking" through the finish, which theoretically should be half the distance to the white water or later how does one achieve "hiding the shoulder"? One should be moving from "open" to "hiding" in an extremely short distance and time frame?

 

The Adam's have pushed the envelope on ski design without a doubt and kudo's to them.

 

Thinking outside the box for technique is great on all levels, it's great to instigate discussion. Historically this always produces "new and improved". I am not saying that the theory of "hiding" doesn't equate to leverage and easier transition to the next turn I am merely disagreeing that this is the most effective, strongest or safest route for the majority especially if one cannot maintain a proper stacked position.

 

And a couple more pics of people that are not "hiding their shoulder" or leading with their sternum.

 

[Wish]

@jayski I think any coaching on line comes with some serious drawbacks. Namely interpretation of said instruction. Adam has used both lead with sternum as well as hide the shoulder with me at the end of the rope and him coaching from the boat. For me it clicked. But in no way are my shoulders any more open or closed then the pics you just posted nor was my interpretation of his coaching. But my click won't be someone else's. I've used the same terminology with folks I coach. With some it clicked and with others not so much and Inhad to find a different way. Unfortunately a lot of folks coach with what has clicked with them along with the terminology but mean the exact same thing as someone else saying it a different way. While the "skier" above may want some fin tuning advice, he's getting some other advice as well. It's up to him to filter through what does and does not click with him. One of the reasons GUT is so profoundly useful is it quickly allows you, the skier, to filter what is good solid advice that clicks and makes sense to the theory or filter out the stuff that's counter productive to it. I like others perspective and was hoping you had some more terminology you use that is successful in keeping ones shoulders as you say. For me it's just another arrow in my quiver of terms to try until I see one click with the skier. Appreciate your discussion of other ways to think of the same thing.

[ISP6ball]

I think when comparing and contrasting body positions, it's essential to compare from the same camera angle, and at the same position in the course.

 

Comparing a body position at centerline filmed from the pylon vs filmed from the shoreline might look different, but be the same.

 

Comparing a body position prior to the first wake vs one at centerline is bound to look different and probably be different.

 

 

 

[BraceMaker]

@jayski of those three the middle is significantly more open. So even in those 3 shots id wager you'd see differences in outbound path.

[eleeski]

Ski tuning? Break out the sandpaper or file. Rounded bevels suck, sharp bevels lift. Soften the front bevels and sharpen the tail to level out the ski - then go test it.

 

Regarding the open/closed shoulders, lead from the knees or hips not the shoulders or head. Do whatever you need to get a comfortable stacked power pull position. I have to cheat a bit and think about loading my bottom hand to get comfortable.

 

The sternum is pretty high but if that's another way of saying "tits up" and don't aim at the buoy, then yes!

 

Eric

[AdamCord]

@jayski

 

The comment I made was for the skier in the image. He's clearly a talented skier, but suffers from loss of connection due to his body position moving out to 2-4. His position in the screen grab I posted shows the handle already coming off his body before he's even hit the transition. For this skier, getting tall, leading with is sternum, and attempting to hide his left shoulder will only lead to more speed, less load, a better connection out to 2-4, and finally to help solve the problem posed by @disland, to improve his 2-4 turn.

 

If I were to write a GUT article about this with exact instructions for the general population to follow, it would go something like this:

 

On a toeside (offside) pull, one must strive to keep their hips and shoulders pointed in the same direction as the ski from turn completion until the release of the handle in the preturn for the next turn.

 

Any effort to "open" toward the boat will

A- force your hips and therefore COM backward on the ski, into a less efficient position (see GUT 103 - Moving with Efficiency to learn why this is bad)

B- guarantee that your hips will separate from the handle as soon as you start the transition. This is because with the high rope load you have no mechanical way to keep your body close to the handle. Your hips and the handle will diverge.

 

As far as the images you posted above: Every one of those skiers has their hips and shoulders more or less in line with the ski, and every one is much more "closed" than the skier in the first image I posted. They also are standing taller and have their sternums further forward.

 

To illustrate my point I made a nice collage B)

 

 

[liquid d]

Just pull harder.

[ShererSkier]

@AdamCord is the onside pull ok to be more open? Or is “hiding the shoulder” still something you are trying to achieve?

[AdamCord]

@ShererSkier definitely. The way we stand on a ski with one foot in front of other naturally forces us to be more “open” during the onside pull and more “closed” during the offside pull in order to achieve a strong and stacked position.

 

 

[ShererSkier]

Ok thanks, I was kinda thinking so but I’d never heard the “hide the shoulder” for offside turns before this thread.