Distance from Center - Episode 6

[Horton]

[B_S]

Wouldn't you expect Juniors to be setting PBs on a pretty regular basis? I know in swimming, if you're not setting a PB at a meet, you're in the minority.

[Horton]

@B_S Not almost 50%. That is just implausible. With lower-level Junior's you might of see a lot of PBs. This is the World Elite Juniors.

[addkerr]

I absolutely Applaud Trent for been so impartial and correct about this issue of Euro scores. As a host I can see why Horton would bring up controversial topics as to be more interesting and desirable to watch, however, Questioning the European rule abiding is crossing the line, you cannot simply throw accusations saying that USA is more stringent than Europe when following rules.

 

I don't think that anyone should have to defend a site if everything checks out but lets try. Europe has had one of the hottest years ever. Our water maybe a lot softer and warmer than previous years. They are also running the new nautique which might just be working sweet as right now. We all ski a boat every now and then that feels like butter. Mix that with such amazing youngsters battling each other now and you have a recipe for a lot of season bests. Until something comes out I think this witch hunt needs to end. It may be possible in this world that records may be broken outside the USA.

 

Just to clarify, I am not even in any way affiliated with the site. I have never even skied in continental Europe, just an offended site owner here in Europe, who is aiming to host a pro event.

[JAS]

I’m with Trent on this one. The metrics for slalom are well defined and unless descrepancy identified Run stands. At end of day we can look at event sheet and see how competitors did.

Water, wind, and human performance are the variables. Really PBs and records are only representative of that body of water at that time.

The fact that these results have been under so much scrutiny and no foul identified makes me think along lines of @addkerr. @Horton is there more to the story that we don’t know? My guess is a lot of skiers would like to cross the pond to ski at that site.

[Stevie Boy]

I agree with @addkerr there has been extremely high temperatures around Europe this summer, I went to one lake which skis nice but boy this summer it skied out of this world everything was so much easier, composition of water and extreme temps made a huge difference there were a lot of PB,s going on.

I really do not believe that anybody is trying to gain advantage by rigging the course or messing with speeds etc.

I think also they are running the new nautiques, Ricardo who owns and operates the lake in question, is not only a international driver, but he sets his boats up really tight steering wise, he drove at our lake for a Pro Event and spent some time setting the boat up, when he left we had to put it back where it was, it was too tight for me, I cannot imagine trying to move the boat for somebody when it is that tight, just wouldn't work out.

It's a shame people are belittling the achievements of others, who have work so hard, to peform the best that they can.

So for all you Guy's & Gals out there who were rewarded for all their efforts and skied there best in that competition , Well Done !

[APB]

I totally agree. Scores are great and they are well-deserved and earned. New baseline has been set in men’s and women’s professional water skiing. It’s exciting and radband I can’t wait to see it happen again.

[Horton]

Episode 7 should be out in a day or two. You guys will all be relieved to find a substantial lack of controversy.

[JackQ]

If anywhere near 25-50% had a PB at any single tournament I would be extremely skeptical. I attended a tournament years ago where a high number (not near 50%) skied PBs, my self included, I knew it wasn't right and never went back. I don't consider the score at that site legit or my PB, which would still would be my PB today. I am not saying that the organizers or anyone else purposely did something, but anywhere near 50% would have statistical probability of approaching 0.

[Stevie Boy]

@JackQ there are a few lakes in the USA which are known to produce good results for a number of skiers on a given day and quite a few world records achieved at those particular lakes, going by your thoughts are we to presume something was hooky at those sites as well.

Obviously people are having trouble accepting that it was a good day all round for a number of people.

I look back to the Pro Am at Princes in London always produced good scores very solid site and then one year Andy Mapple scored 1@43 off in all three rounds it was infectious all the other Pro,s skied beyond their previous scores, they all had a good day, it was like everybody had good vibes that day, the same thing did not happen the following year, so I am sorry I think you are wrong Success Breeds Success sometimes when you BELIEVE extrodinary things can and do happen.

[JackQ]

I am not saying when a few people set PBs or most "ski well" there may be an issue. But when a large number of people set there PB, the best they have done out of dozens and dozens of attempts, statistically and realistically that is not a likely event.

[Stevie Boy]

Sad ! when a organisation like BOTASKI go out of their way to host a Top Event which I should imagine, not only cost a fair bit but also takes a lot of organisation and work logistically, to get the show on the road and then get people starting to listen to the Grapevine that something must have been wrong, because the scores were good, people by the way who were several thousands miles away, I do not get it, if somebody has evidence of wrong doing lets see it, no wonder sites are reluctant to host events, and as far as sponsors go it's a nightmare why get involved, people should stop and think before they speculate is does our sport no good at all, talk about kick yourself where it hurts as hard as you can, Gees what's going on.

My Opinion at this moment in time.

For me Distance fron Center is not a good thing if it does not focus on the positive side of our sport.

Questioning the Validity of a particlar ski site is for the Authorties in charge of the sport not for open discussion unless there is proof/explanation to support what is being said.

 

 

[DanE]

Totally agree @Stevie Boy .

So a number of 17 yo sets a pb (or is it a season best, did anyone bother to look that up?)when they get to one of the worlds premier waterski venues to ski the most prestigious event of their life and people find that suspicious? Total BS if you ask me. I can easily find equal numbers of skiers who budged and skied well below their SB, how about that?

Accusing the organizers of foul play is just ridiculous without evidence to back it up. What about the officials? Where rhey bought or what? For what purpose? And for what money ? How much money do you think floats around in this sport when proffessional skiers need to keep their day job to make a living?

World Championships is all about the podium, not some record or a pb. The boys and girls just gave it their best when it mattered the most, deal with it.

[Horton]

I clearly get that a lot of you think I am 100% wrong. That is ok. I only have one more thing to say on the subject.

 

There were over 700 skiers at US Nationals. A handful of the slalom divisions at Nationals are class E and are not listed on the World Standings Lists. Let’s round down and say there are 600 slalom rides at Nationals that are class L or above. For various other reasons there are actually only 466 scores from Nationals listed on the Dynamic World Standings List.

 

Looking at that Dynamic World Standings list data and filtering for every skier who has 3 or more scores on the list AND their best score of the year was at Nationals you will find 37 skiers.

 

That means about 8% of the skiers who ski Class L events in addition to Regionals and Nationals had their best ride at Nationals. The 8% calculation is likely inflated because of incomplete data. I think the real number is closer to 6%.

 

If 6% or 8% for US Nationals is even close to correct how can 48% be right for Jr Worlds.

 

 

 

 

[The_MS]

WOW. Did you come up with that? I am I your camp on this topic @Horton

[addkerr]

@Horton whats the percentage on only jr divisons? Im not actually asking you to figure this out as we all have better things to do. But we all know jr skiers have a much higher rate of pb’s vs older skiers.

 

On a side note, what would actually satisfy you to say those scores are legit?

[DanE]

@addkerr Not to mention junior skiers who do a great deal of tournaments in natural lakes with backwash and random rollers, hey sea coves even.

[Horton]

@addkerr I am not exactly sure how to capture the total number of skiers under 21 who skied at Nationals. There were 11 skiers under 21 yrs at Nationals with 3 or more L scores who skied their best L round of the year t Nationals. Younger skiers are improving at a greater rate but there is a logical limit where it is implausible.

[ConPexEr]

when is the next event at this site?

[UCFskier]

great segment @Horton and @TFIN

have to agree with @Horton on this... not diminishing the accomplishments of these young skiers, but the likely hood of 50% plus of skiers setting a PB at one event exceeds plausible probability.

@B_S stated "Wouldn't you expect Juniors to be setting PBs on a pretty regular basis? I know in swimming, if you're not setting a PB at a meet, you're in the minority."

 

have to disagree. Top juniors are no different than top pros. PB's come slow and are not likely to be set on a regular basis.....

 

I think @TFIN was on to something when he said possible the site is a satellite vortex and maybe is altered ZO some how lol

 

R

[Stevie Boy]

Strange I thought that generally times were recorded or checked after each pass run, during these competitions to make sure they were in tolerance.

I cannot see how dodgy sattelites would play a part either the times were in tolerance or not. I think the list below is what we aim for , I can only imagine that the times were in tolerance.

Trying to find a hand that fits the glove rather than a glove that fits the hand.

Like I said no hard facts so why guess or try and come up with a solution that does not exist, if it does and it is valid lets hear it.

 

36MPH = 16.08

 

34MPH = 16.95

 

32MPH = 17.93

[Horton]

@Stevie Boy one of the plausible but unlikely ways you could boost scores is to modify the ZO programing. The system times itself so you theoretically could have the boat going slow and still displaying a good time. There are only a handful of people of earth with the knowledge to do this and I am not saying that anyone has ever even tested it but I am sure it is possible.

 

Please people I am NOT saying anyone has ever done this. I am only saying it is not impossible.

[Stevie Boy]

@Horton now I am Honest guy who really does not understand why some people have to cheat other than the fact there is generally money involved.

Perhaps I am being a little naive here seeing that it was not a individual that may have gained advantage, what would be the point in manipulating a site to enable a number of people to produce a PB I do not get it, what is there to be gained and if there was something to be gained how would it stack up against being caught out, am I missing something here ?

[Horton]

@Stevie Boy Good question