New Lake Development... Input Wanted

[owennibley]

I guess its just me being a pessimist but I just don't see people paying a premium for the lot/house and then paying an extra 3k a year to ONLY ski/surf on those lakes. I lose my ability to go anywhere else because I no longer have a boat. I lose control essentially. I am 100% dependent on a driver and now have to share the lake with 300+ persons. Not my cup of tea.

 

With regards to the length of season.... I disagree with mid-April. More like mid-May. I could see skiing into October on some years when warmer.

 

I would say no to lights. Personal preference there. I would want my "resort" home to be serene and quiet after dark. But.... given the fact that you're sharing the lakes with 300+ persons you might have to have lights to extend the day. Again, not my cup of tea.

 

Assuming all the lots fill up and the houses/condos are filled, I think you'll have a logistical nightmare to keep everyone satisfied for the amount of money they are paying. It all depends on how its set up.

 

Have you brought this proposal to Logan City? Cache County? What about water rights and water usage? are you getting the water directly from Logan River? I'd be interested to hear what Logan City and the County have said.

[JaredSmith]

@Such_a_brett Love what your are doing, just wish it was in Utah County! You have obviously done your market research on Cache County, go with your gut.

[BrennanKMN]

This is cool concept and I love that someone is trying to make it happen. I do agree with @owennibley though on a few points. I don't think I could pay the costs outlined here for what you're offering. I don't think they're unreasonable - just not right for me. Probably has a lot to do with the fact that I can have my boat on 20 different lakes within a 45 min drive.

 

If I am buying/renting a home on the water I either want a dedicated 3 event lake and nothing else or a full recreational lake. Furthermore if I live on that water I don't want to use a club boat or provided driver. There is no way I would ever pay to live somewhere on the water and not have my own boat. If it was a club I belong to, sure, but living there full time is a deal breaker for me. I understand why you would require a driver, but that takes away a lot of the fun for me any my ski partners.

 

If you are going the route of a club boat and club driver it might almost be worth it to have one lake open to the public with fewer houses on it. The public can rent boat/driver time. Similar to some of the watersport complexes that exist today. This is great for people that don't have access to boats and lakes easily; which sounds like your target market.

 

[JaredSmith]

I agree with @BrennanKMN about drivers, there needs to be a way for any owner and their invited guests to drive the boat.

[bradenday]

Such an interesting concept and truly has me intrigued as it seems almost targeted to my situation-

43 Y/O with +$125K income living in the south end of Cache Valley with a family of 6 who slaloms, wakeboards, and surfs and plays hockey in the winter. Currently own a Malibu that costs me about $7K a year that I use weekly (sometimes more than once) but for some reason this is easier than paying for it on a per/use basis even though the math doesn't add up. And I would LOVE to live on the water but like you have said - it doesn't exist in Utah.

 

The two biggest problems for me (that come to mind right now) would be:

1. Not having a boat as Bear Lake and Lake Powell would still be destinations we'd want to go to and couldn't justify paying for my personal boat and a community boat (through usage).

2. Scheduling. The idea of making an appointment to have fun takes some of the fun out of it. Just like standing in line at Disneyland. My families schedule is hectic and changes constantly. I can already see my frustration with scheduling a Friday morning set only to be blown out and Saturday is beautiful and already booked full.

 

I'm not completely sold on the idea but I'd like more information.

 

 

 

[escmanaze]

It's funny. We all seem to live in denial about what our boat actually costs us.

 

I suppose if we were actually honest with ourselves about the cost, we maybe probably wouldn't own it.

[Such_a_brett]

@escmanaze

 

This is the case with nearly everything, and why the rising generations are throwing away the old lifestyles that we all grew up with. More and more it is a renters mentality. I own a fintech firm and my young 25-35yo software developers have no interest in owning a home, buying a boat, etc... They are all about shared open office spaces, high-end condo on a yearly lease, and pay for fun on a per-use basis.

 

Braden's situation above is typical. $6-10k per year to be a boating family. At least in his case he's getting out weekly. I'm sure we can all start naming off families with that same Malibu who are lucky to get out one weekend a month. Like I said, I've only recently gotten to the mindset of finally selling the truck and embracing the renter mindset. I can assert with full confidence that not only is it cheaper, but it's a better experience. More time for the actual fun part of boating. Would be even better if I didn't have to go through the 15-30minute hassle of rental paperwork each time. Schedule my time on an app and just show up and hop in the boat. Nice!!!

[owennibley]

@escmanaze what are the costs maybe I'm missing some. Here are mine:

1. Cost of the boat. 92' Prostar with Stargazer (~6.5k, I can sell it for that, I'm sure.)

2. Insurance (220/yr)

3. Maintenance: engine oil/filter, trans oil, bearing grease, some spray wax, seat cleaner, teak oil, winterization, anything else? (~200/yr)

4. Misc items/repairs: new tires, new prop maybe, spark plugs/wires, wheel bearings, steering cable, thermostat, hoses, water pump, anything else? (~500/yr)

5. Lake fees: $50 season pass to small public lake or $75 season pass for state parks.

 

So far I'm at 1k per year. I'm not including the initial cost because I'm not going to lose any money if I choose to sell it. Fuel costs are negligible as they would occur if I was renting.

 

Now this isn't the case with everyone. Some people have a new boat that depreciates. I do all my own work, some don't so factor that in. I store the boat at my house, some don't so factor that in. Most people don't just buy a towing vehicle for only their boat. So I didnt factor that it.

 

With respect to this development, paying an extra 60k+ for a lot, another 3-4k/yr in usage fees, $700/yr in hoa fees, losing the ability to go whenever and whatever lake I want, and fighting the 350+ people for lake time does not make any sense to me. Especially with Willard Bay, Mantua, Hyrum Dam, Benson, Cutler, Newton, Bear Lake, Glendale within 45 minutes of said location.

 

Hey but it sounds like the target demo is 125+k earners who get their wakesetters & G25s wet 3 times a season. In that case, yes, it absolutely does not make sense to own a boat and they should buy into this property.

 

I would be 100% in and buy a lot if it was setup like Stillwater Lakes. I use my boat, my driver, ability to take friends, boat dock, etc.

 

Location aside, my biggest problem with this business plan is this: If I am shelling out and additional 3k/yr and an extra 20k-100k for the property, I want the ability to ski with whomever I want and whenever I want without waiting in line for hours or being dependent on unreliable part time college student to drive me.

 

But it sounds like I am the minority in this boat (ha!) and there is a fair amount of interest, to which I say rock on and push forward.

[BraceMaker]

@JaredSmith a bit of an oversteer there, any owner and any of their invited guests driving is a fiasco - most small ski lakes solve this by having a certain number of purchasable boat passes. Say you have 30 houses then only 10 of them are allowed boats. You can buy a house on the lake for 300K but the boat permit might be another 50K. Either way the failure of so many attempts at ski lakes is literally letting too many or too few people really use it.

 

Needs to be a way but also needs regulation.

 

An option would be to have the comp lake more isolated and have a ski club on it. Run in conjunction but with more restricted useful open hours. Maybe even have a course on the wake lake for more recreational skiing.

 

Then the individual owners could elect to have a private boat or use a club boat or pay for sets. Incorporate into your software

 

 

[owennibley]

@BraceMaker now you're talking. Having the comp lake separate and more restricted with a ski club would be something I would be interested in.

[Such_a_brett]

@bradenday

 

I'd love any information and feedback you are willing to give. You are absolutely the target for this. You sound just like 1/2 of my neighbors in North Logan (although I think you get out on the water more than them). I know the official stats don't reflect it, but you can probably back me up on the fact that there are plenty of local families with parents in the 40-60yo range, 2-4 kids, making $100k+. Again that description (with or without the boat) is literally ~90% of my neighborhood.

 

I would tell you that this resort community experience isn't just about boating at a cheaper price. People tend to focus on the boating aspect because that certainly becomes the focal point in a ski lake development. But there are a ton of other perks in this development.

 

The main boat docks will be setup as social areas with pools, hot tubs, splash pads, viewing decks, covered lounges, BBQ, sand volleyball, swim/beach area, gear lockers, etc... Essentially the type of amenities you'd get at a typical resort. The idea is that your group can be having fun together and with others in the community even if you might have to wait a bit between sets.

Outdoor winter activities right out your back door like skating and hockey, snowmobile tubing.

Onsite gym, clubhouse, massage, etc...

River fishing, bike/jogging path, SUP/kayak

Throughout the summer, your kids will be able to get sets in even while you are at work and can't drive them.

Boating doesn't need to be an all-day commitment. It can be a quick 30 minutes.

 

To address your concerns... absolutely any situation like this can't be all pros with no cons. But in my experience, the pros dramatically outweigh the cons in this case.

 

1. I'm just like you. I do a fair amount of boating at Bear Lake and once a summer for 11 days at Powell. To be fair, we mainly do Bear Lake out of necessity because let's be honest, the water is freezing and generally poor quality unless you're ready to go at sunrise. I've switched completely to renting at Bear Lake because there are many rental shops. It's now a much nicer experience than hauling my own boat over and then hauling back and cleaning it and the truck when done. If I lived in this resort I probably wouldn't boat at Bear Lake much anymore. Instead it would be for ATV, hiking/rock climbing, etc. Internally, we have discussed the idea of keeping 4 boats in the charter. Perhaps the ones that have already been through a season on the private lakes could be rented to residents at very reasonable prices for offsite family trips. I mean really, you know when you are wanting to go to Powell and can schedule that trip. This type of situation would still likely be less than the $7k you spend now. And much more convenient.

 

2. This is absolutely a possibility. I'm working very hard right now to optimize the balance between cost and pressure on the boats. In the very first proposal we had 310 households on a small 2-lake setup, neither perfectly suited for big wake, which I suspected was the top end of acceptable density. The second proposal with the V-shaped lake increased to 400 households, but changed to effectively a 4-lake setup. The no-wake crowd was moved to a paddle pond, and the recreational lake was created to be suitable for 2 boats at a time if tubing or surfing. I think we have a total winner with this latest concept. We now have a dedicated comp ski lake and a bigger paddle lake, but the rec lake is fantastically suited for the big wake crowd. It can still run 2 boats when tubing and surfing creating an effective 4-lake equivalent. But more importantly, I've worked the project costs out so that I can drop the density back down to 300 households. I've done a lot of research into other private lakes and my estimates are that this setup will result in less than 50% overall booking. Will there be busy times? Yes, but the scheduling system won't allow single families to commandeer the lakes at all prime times. For example, a single family can't block out noon-3pm on a saturday in July. They also can't reserve every saturday from 1-2pm for multiple weeks. With the scheduling system we have in mind, you would absolutely get a lot of time on the water. And keep in mind, that your time on the water wouldn't be spent searching for smooth water. Every pass is a perfect pass.

[Such_a_brett]

@owennibley

 

I wouldn't go as far as to say that you aren't at all the target demo, but absolutely your situation won't be typical of the likely residents here. You hit the nail on the head. The target demo either owns a new-ish wakesetter and wishes it actually made sense, or doesn't own a wakesetter and wishes they could justify it.

 

In any case, you are still missing a few real costs that you have now but wouldn't have in our resort.

 

FUEL

You are neglecting fuel costs saying that you would still have them renting. What I am proposing is that fuel cost are included in the rental. Myself and most of my friends burn about 6-7 gal/hour if we are pulling riders and not just idling around. With my level of use each year that is about $900/season for the boat.

Then there is the fuel for the truck. You keep mentioning Bear Lake, Willard, Hyrum, Glendale, etc. I use all of these. I'm about $200/season in truck fuel.

 

TRUCK

I know you are saying that you don't own a truck just to pull the boat. That is true, but I will say it is the main reason I would own a truck. I have a daily driver for when I'm not towing. But we won't consider the truck payment and stuff, let's just talk depreciation and wear & tear directly associated with boat trips. Again our target buyer doesn't pull their boat with a 1990 pickup with 200,000 miles on it. Before I sold my truck I was typical. 2 year old Ford F350 diesel (about $55k). In any case, the IRS thinks that 0.58/mile is appropriate to cover typical wear and tear, so let's go with that. That ends up at $300/year.

 

Even with your very cost-conscious boat, we are now up to $2400-ish as compared to $3,000 on our lakes for the same amount of use. But then you have to consider what you are getting for the other $600. You reference several boating spots close by. In my experience not a single one of those spots is a very nice experience after 9:30am. Let's use Hyrum as the largest local spot. The boating area early in the season (200-ish acres) is about 5x larger than our resort lakes, but on a nice day there will be 10-20 other boats on the water. Even worse on Glendale, Cutler, and Newton, and especially late in the season when irrigation turns them into mud puddles. Willard and Bear Lake are much bigger, but because of wind and heavy boat pressure are even choppier. I would rather pay $3,000/season for perfect conditions every set than $2400/season to fight other boats all day. I would gladly deal with scheduling my sessions as well if it means I'm guaranteed to have warmer smooth water.

 

Also, if we are going to make the argument that boat depreciation doesn't count if you can sell it for what you bought it for (which is unlikely for most boat owners), we then get to use that argument on the lot purchase. Sure you spend $60K extra for the lot, but in 10 years that $60k will actually be worth closer to $80K with typical real estate appreciation. So by that reckoning, the purchase price shouldn't be counted toward the cost of boating. And if it is, the appreciation should be counted against the HOA and boat use fees. So in this example, the total net cost of boating over 10 years would be about $13,800 or $1,380/year for brand new competition series boats with perfect water conditions. Still seems like a great deal to a guy like me. Not to mention that I no longer need my own swimming pool, hot tub, gym membership, etc.

[owennibley]

@Such_a_brett I can see the value of the property increasing, I missed that. I don't necessarily agree with your other points but I'll stop hijacking the thread. Obviously, this setup isnt appealing to me for multiple reasons but I'm sure there will be interest if/when it comes to fruition. I hope to steal a set or two on the ski lake!

 

I do like the idea of having a ski club separate and time set aside for only the ski club members.... I also would think that a cable type park would be cool for wake boarders which also eliminates the need for a boat and driver.

[Such_a_brett]

@owennibley

 

I don't mind the discussion. I hope I don't come off as argumentative. By profession I am a financial analyst who runs a fintech firm and also happens to be in real estate development. So my brain automatically runs through all the different angles. Obviously everyone approaches hobbies with different perceptions and what they consider to be sunk costs that aren't really applicable to the hobby.

[cfgunnell]

I think it sounds appealing to some. Unfortunately not me, but I don’t like being tied down or on a schedule. That is why I own my own prostar (yes I’m a skier) and will ski at benson, cutler, Glendale, or my personal lake. I’m one person though. I think the club idea is awesome and I would happily donate to get this started in cache valley. I thinking slalom is fantastic spot and I applauded those who still do it! Course is a must!

 

I hope it works! It’s a huge dream and it you pull it off that’s a HUUUUGE accomplishment. Good luck and hope it works out for you. Make skiing great again!

[escmanaze]

@owennibley shoot man you are crazy if you think I'm going to be the one raining on your parade. If you haven't already thought of more ways than that, that your boat costs you money, I'm not about to be that jerk who points out just how high-maintenance your girlfriend is. If you're in love, my job is to just

.

 

You do at least have to be intellectually honest enough to acknowledge that you're comparing apples with oranges. A 92 prostar on willard bay on one hand. A brand new prostar on a perfectly shaped private lake right out your back door, every aspect of which is somebody else's problem on the other hand. Comparing those two user experiences is certainly comparing apples to oranges.

[escmanaze]

Oh yeah, and for all the talk on here about "crossover boats" and we all wish we could just own two boats...guess what. Live on the ski lake, but then whenever you want, ride the onewheel over to the wake lake and get your surf on whenever you feel like.

[Such_a_brett]

@cfgunnell

 

LOL! I wouldn't expect it to sound appealing to a guy who already has a private lake 10 miles north. :D

 

I'll gladly bring you for a bunch of sets once we get water in it.

[escmanaze]

@bradenday I'll give you my best sales pitch here. Shoot, apparently @Such_a_brett is going to need to start throwing some commissions my way here pretty soon.

 

1. If you are going more than once a week on a new wakesetter, $7k per year is likely not fully enough and you have probably left out some costs in there.

2. If I lived at a place like this, I can't imagine that Lake Powell and Bear Lake would have much draw left for me. Bear Lake is just lame in the first place, that place was never all that attractive. Lake Powell, though, for me was heaven as a kid, and I still think there is something valuable for the kids there. But for me personally, I would MUCH prefer to just ski 5 days in a row at Utah Lake on the perfect glass that I get there instead of go and fight the wind, the tubers, the gigantic storms, the poop dock, the 6 hour drive, the quagga mussels, and the flat tire on the way down there just so that I can try to wake up at 5:30 am after sleeping on some ghetto little camping pad in a sleeping bag to get an hour or two worth of decent water in the morning before normal people wake up. And if you really want to go, you find which of your kids have friends with boats. Then you work out a deal with them where their family comes as your guests to your "country club" throughout the summer and then they invite your family to Powell when they go.

3. Your hectic family schedule is why it is SOO much easier for you to schedule your family on a couple sessions out the back door with whatever kids happen to be available at the time than it is for you to look for that time that's just right, pack up the whole family, drive out to the lake, drive back, wipe down the boat, unload all the stuff. I think a hectic family schedule is an argument FOR this model, not against it.

4. Getting blown off on Friday. Wind apps are getting pretty good, and getting blown off is a much smaller problem on small private lakes like this than it is on big public lakes. The type of wind needed to "blow you off" this lake will be EASILY predictable by even basic weather apps 24-48 hours in advance. It does beg the question for @Such_a_brett though: What would the cancellation policy look like? A few different ways you could go there each with its own set of ups and downs.

5. Schedule is packed on saturday: I think most the comments on here about demand far outpacing the supply will prove to be completely overblown. Remember how hectic your schedule is? Everybody else is just like you. With that being said, certainly Saturdays will be the most crowded, but honestly, outside of private lakes, are there really even any lakes in Utah worth going to on a Saturday? I'll take my chances on a crowded Saturday schedule at this private lake any day over a crowded public lake on a saturday.

 

I'm sure you aren't just like me, so probably at least some of these won't apply to you. But again, for me, it's a no-brainer, except for that whole living in Logan part.

[Such_a_brett]

@escmanaze

 

I couldn't have said it better myself. Maybe we'll have to bring you on the sales team. :D The funny thing is that you were just arguing it from the boat perspective. My brokers and I think that at least 1/2 the buyers won't ever intend on strapping a board to their feet. They will buy for the atmosphere, beauty, and other amenities. Not to mention the appreciation potential. A lot of people just want a nice well-maintained social community.

 

Re: schedule and demand... I completely agree. I've already spoken with another lake community elsewhere that has 3 lakes and 90 homes. Their description was that the main lake got fairly regular use but was still pretty easy to get sets in. The second lake was the backup lake for the crowded days. The third lake was essentially a fishing pond and less maintained because nobody ever needed to use it for skiing.

 

I think that a handful of guys like @bradenday are gonna do the math and realize this place ticks all the boxes. After one season they'll realize the full extent of what they were just dealing with before and they will become our best sales reps through word of mouth. But my brokers are pretty straight with me on demand and value for my projects. With this project they are confident they'll pre-sell most of the lots prior to phase completion.

 

You might be interested that we have tentative plans to do another one (likely a bit larger) around point of the mountain area, provided this one progresses reasonably well. Wanna be somewhat close to "Silicon Slopes".

[Such_a_brett]

One other side note on community desirability specific to this area. There's is a huge demand for upscale developments on flat terrain. Because of the layout of the valley we all know that most of the upscale developments are on the mountainside. Sure the valley views are nice but there are big drawbacks. My own lot is a perfect example- 1/2 acre in a premium North Logan bench area (sorta like foothills to the non-Utah folks). Lot value is $110k but when I finish building, I'll have spent another $20-30k in retaining walls and the roads are too steep for my 2 young kids to ride their bikes. I've thought about selling the land because of that. Increasingly people are searching out flat terrain because they don't really want to live on the side of a mountain.

[owennibley]

@escmanaze LOL!!! If I would've known that you think that $60/hr is a steal of a deal I would've taken more than $10 for pulling you 2 sets (or was it 3, it was 3 sets... I just checked my spreadsheet) last June on my boat. I'll keep that in mind for the next time. I'll need that extra cash to pay for the costs of owning a boat that apparently I'm not being intellectually honest with myself on how much it costs me. :D

 

There are many things related to boating that you cannot put a price on that you would not get at a resort like this. That is why, I feel, many people own boats and only use them 5 times a year. Its not all about the money and perfect water. I guess its easier to give your kid a credit card and say go take a surf sesh than to pack up the family to Lake Powell or lame Bear Lake. To each his own.

[bradenday]

@owennibley that has been my third concern. There is the watersport side of boating but there is also the social side of it. I would love glassy water. But some our best days are just hanging out in the boat with the anchor out, no cell phones, just relaxing or swimming. I'm sure the response will be that the social aspect will be filled with other amenities of the resort but I'm sure most us know what I mean.

 

@Such_a_brett How long before you think this project gets the green light?

[Such_a_brett]

@owennibley

 

Don't get me wrong. I'd still love to have you out for some sets if we get this in place. I also wouldn't be too hard on Bear Lake. It is a fun place. Just not anywhere close to as enjoyable to ski on as the private lakes over at Bear Hollow. If I lived on these private lakes, Bear Lake and Powell would have a different focus for me. Not so focused on ski/wakeboard. More about the other activities like swimming and climbing through slot canyons or long RZR rides (which I also rent instead of own now).

 

But @escmanaze makes a really valid point about private lakes being more accommodating of the questionable weather days. Especially when we are talking about lakes like this project that are surrounded by 50-60ft trees all the way around. When I'm not being pulled by a boat, I also like to kiteboard. The two best locations near Logan are Willard and Bear Lake, because they have A LOT of wind days. Windy weather and large lakes are not a good combination for skiing.

 

A huge benefit to these private lakes is that unless you are in the middle of a big downpour or a massive storm front is moving over, the wind won't really matter. Also, the lakes stay much warmer and the ski season is 1.5-2 months longer than at the public reservoirs. At least that has been my experience at Bear Hollow Lakes. I would get out on those lakes at good month earlier than I would venture out onto Hyrum, Bear Lake, or Willard.

[escmanaze]

@owennibley

Ha ha ha!!! I told you I should have been giving you $20!!! You wouldn't let me!! That's it, I'm totally sneaking another 10 into your pocket next time I see you up there!!

 

I do get what you're saying about Lake Powell being all about a lot more than just good water. Lake Powell, especially for the kids, is the "whole experience" of the thing.

 

It sounds like you and I see "owning a boat" very differently. To me it literally is just a tool to get me to flat water with a course on it and everything else falls into the expense category. It sounds like you maybe find some joy in the little tasks associated with "going boating" and if that's the case - shoot, good for you. I'm actually a little jealous of that.

 

I think that's why something like this would work out really well for me. And that's probably the same reason why it wouldn't work out so well for you. I get that too.

[escmanaze]

@Such_a_brett

That would be bonkers for you to build something like this close to silicon slopes. I have to assume, though, that the closest you could possibly get would be right around Cedar Fort though right?

[Such_a_brett]

@escmanaze

 

I was thinking more like Eagle Mountain. So yeah, right next to Cedar Fort. I like the proximity of Saratoga Springs better, but worry about the wind. If we did something there, I would try to do something more like 200 acres and 4 lakes. I would also strongly consider doing a AWM type wave lake.

 

Also, I don't know that market as well, so I'd have some learning to do. In my local market, I know which locations are winners without even stepping foot on them.

[Such_a_brett]

@bradenday

 

I know exactly what you mean about the boating experience. You are right that I would say some of the other amenities make up for a good portion of that. For example, when I go boating Bear Lake, we mostly spend the day lounging in the boat on the water. When I boat Glendale at a buddy's cabin we spend much more time socializing on the private dock, beach, volleyball, firepit, etc... and everyone just rotates on and off the boat throughout the day.

 

Sure it's a different mindset and I enjoy both. I would suggest that the more important is consistent quality sets. I can go out on a choppy lake with friends or rent for a day on a weekend getaway anywhere and anytime. Even with the occassional offsite rental, guys like me are still money ahead to live and ski mainly in a private community. I think the best thing we could do is keep a 4th boat for offsite use at like $200-300/day or something.

 

In terms of timing, these projects take some time. The conservation easement was a curveball that I didn't expect. Now I'm in discussions with a second land owner to add acreage to overcome the easement. If that all goes well, we would start working through permits and civil before year end. Best case we still don't have a shovel in the ground until Juky or August though. First we've gotta get past the 'not in my backyard' crowd at the council meetings. We hope to be taking lot reservations around June or July.

[Such_a_brett]

Just an update for those interested. We are still making progress on this. As things go, we have run into obstacles that we have to overcome.

 

The biggest and most unexpected was during a meeting with the city. We had about 15 people in that meeting including my whole team, our civil engineer and his team, the mayor, the city lawyer responsible for the easement provisions, the city planners, road sewer and utilities, and city engineers.

 

There were typical concerns around noise levels, but those were easily assuaged. There was some discussion around our impact on the conservation easment and whether we were willing to support (i.e. pay for) the city plan for more river walkways and bike paths. Ultimately the city wants this development because it means about $4MM additional taxes annually coming from an area that otherwise won't create much tax base at all.

 

Everything went well, and then out of left field at the end, the engineer exclaims that he is planning to submit a reclassification with FEMA to declare about 95% of the 185 acres as flood zone. This is in contrast to the roughly 10 acres that is currently classified as such. Because the excavation of this project moves 450,000 yards or dirt, we are changing the grade pretty significantly. His argument is that this shoves the flood waters to the other side of the river. He claims to have documented evidence that this does actually flood.

 

Long story shorter, we inserted ourselves into his reclassification process with the consultants coordinating with FEMA and have re-engineered the grading to accommodate their proposed 100-year flood event without shoving it to the other side of the river. That should be completed this month along with a wetland mitigation report. Then it's on to the army corps which will take several months.

 

Steady wins the race I guess.

[Skoot1123]

@Such_a_brett - sounds like our lake project. A year after we started digging (after approval from the state) the Army Corp came in. Won’t go into details but it was definitely a curve ball we didn’t see coming.

Have been enjoying our lake for almost 6 years now.

[Such_a_brett]

Yeah, gotta have the army corps involved from the beginning on this one due to wetland delineation. Better to know up front though. Typical wetland must be restored 2:1 and pristine wetland is 3:1. If you don't have enough available land to restore then you can buy into a fund for $40k per acre. Ther latter is definitely not the ideal outcome.

[Such_a_brett]

The obnoxious thing about wetland in this case is that it is manmade wetlands. The land owners dug a culvert under a highway to help drain another piece on the other side. They then dug a canal to direct water to the middle of this property. Consequently, this property now floods and grows wetland vegetation in select spots. If they had redirected that drainage to the river a year ago, the wetland vegetation would've died off in one season.

[Such_a_brett]

Coming to the final stretch on this project. Target to break ground is November.

[escmanaze]

Awesome!!!! Do you have more concrete plans to share? I can't wait to see what you finalized on.

[Such_a_brett]

Yes, here is a pic of the project as it stands right now. A few tweaks are still happening as we work with wetland remediation and cooperating with the city on incorporating their river walking/biking paths and parks/bridges. The city is very excited about the project as it brings a great amenity to an area of town that is difficult to attract luxury housing to. And we are really trying to do our best to help the city preserve the natural beauty of the Logan River and forested wetland areas. Overall the project has come along really well. In fact, we've got verbal commitments for purchase of 40 of the 146 single-family lots already, despite not having started marketing yet.

 

 

[Such_a_brett]

A couple notes for those interested...

 

Average lot size is 0.4 acres.

Lots range from $106,000 to $360,000

Average lot price is around $190,000

 

The winding red line around the bottom is a walking/biking trail along the river that connects to a large park and another few miles of river trail. Ultimately, over the next couple decades, the county plans to extend the river trail another 6 miles west to a reservoir and another 3 miles east to a canyon.

 

We are still trying to work out a paddle lake at bottom right but that area is primarily classified wetland, so we likely won't get the go ahead from the Army Corps.

 

Surface area of large lake is about 29 acres.

Surface area of slalom lake is about 10 acres.

 

We have about 500 acre feet of water rights.

 

The large lake will allow for scheduling exclusive time or shared time; the latter allowing for the other boat(s) to be on the water simultaneously for the tubers and surfers who don't mind if the water isn't glass. This will dramatically increase the number of open slots on the boat schedule. At peaks times we'll often be running 2-3 boats at once on the large lake and 1 on the slalom lake.

 

The large lake has a very large dock (upper middle) with pools, splash pad, hot tubs, BBQ, beach volleyball, etc.

 

The slalom lake has an arched bridge on the left end accessing the dock which is out on the turn island. This island also has a large hot tub, gazebo, etc.

 

All shorelines except turn areas will have beach sand and the lots are deeper to accommodate a 15ft easement to allow for jogging around the lake. The large lake perimeter is about 1.2 miles.

 

The large lake has a large beach/swim/paddle area at the top.

 

The fourth boat will be available for offsite rental for residents only, needing a boat for a trip to a different boating location for a few days.

 

Starting spring 2021, we will likely be selling family season access passes equal to the number of residences that have not been sold (330 available minus however many lots have been sold and occupied condos). We will do this each season until the lots are all sold and condos are all occupied. This will both raise revenue and help us get a feel for working out optimal scheduling processes.

 

As it sits right now we expect both lakes to be operational spring 2021. At current rate, we expect all lots sold within 3 years instead of the expected 5 years. So far 1/2 of those reserving lots are from outside Cache Valley, having heard about the project through the grapevine. We will begin marketing the project as soon as the Army Corps approves the very thorough 195 page wetland delineation report (should be within 6 weeks). We are waiting on the Army Corp before getting firm commits from investors, so we haven't reached out to our normal network yet. Meantime, a few others have heard of the project and requested the opportunity for investment, so the anticipated capital raise is currently about 75% subscribed. Given that the lots are moving so quickly, we might go ahead and increase the capital raise and accelerate the completion schedule.

 

We will also be starting the multifamily build in phase 1 instead of phase 2 as originally planned.

[owennibley]

@Such_a_brett looks like a big project. The layout looks well though out. My interest would be primarily the ski lake. Do you have a plan on how that will be setup? Will it be a separate club or will property owners need to provide their own boats? Will there be docks allowed on the lake if you want to use your own boat? USA waterski certified driver provided? What time could you start skiing? 6am before work is what i ski now would that be possible with homes around the lake? Etc. Not sure if you've worked out those details... would love to hear them if you have.

 

I think the lots are reasonably priced and sized.... enough to definitely get me thinking about buying one but it just depends on how much availability I would have to ski and at what cost.

[LoopSki]

Cool project , but would never work for me. I like to get out and use the lake when I feel like it. I can barely plan dinner much less when I’m going to ski.

[cfgunnell]

@Such_a_brett Im surprised and stoked this is moving forward! Keep it up. I'd like to get some information on lots specifically surrounding the water ski lake. Regulations for boating times, personal boat vs. club boat. Are you looking for more investors as well? Feel free to send me an email or call as well. I'd love to discuss this in further a little more.

 

Thanks,

Clay.

 

[Fast351]

I am amazed at all the planning that @Such_a_brett has put into this community. Obviously there is a demand in the arrid country of Utah. It makes me thankful to be able to live on a 190 acre public lake in Minnesota that I can ski pretty much every day on glass if I'm willing to get up at sunrise.

 

But it is a really cool concept. I wish more people were planning communities like this, because I would definitely buy a condo in a warm weather climate with this kind of setup to use in the 6 months/year where it's cold here.

 

I know in Minnesota the hardcore built lakes have been a mild success (maybe). TLE4, which is 10 minutes from my house, is a disaster. TLE3 in Center City is a really cool site, but maybe at 30-40% capacity. Not sure about TLE2 and TLE1, but when you're competing against 10,000 natural lakes it's easy to see why it's hard to compete. But in the vacuum of any available watersports water worth a damn? What a great concept.

 

[cfgunnell]

 

This was taken Saturday about 10 am and about 10 minutes from where the lake is purposed. The water here is usually glassy but murky! Cannot see the bottom and around 5-12 feet in most area so it keeps bigger boats off and only allows the skiers and jet skiers. Course is set up there as wel makes for a great spot but having a cleaner lake with a house on it and beaches for kids adds a lot of value for someone like me with a young growing water sports family.

[Such_a_brett]

@cfgunnell... That is nice. I wish I could get water like that at Hyrum or the other big wake locations past about 9am.

 

Given the density of the community, ultimately it would be very difficult to allow personal boats. It isn't just a coordination issue, it is also an insurance issue. Consequently, the HOA will be purchasing 4 boats. One will be a dedicated slalom tow boat. Two others will be dedicated big wake boats. The fourth will be a crossover that will be available for offsite rental by residents only, but can also function as a backup to the other three boats if necessary. We are talking about top end competition series craft, and we will rotate them out every two years or a number of hours. Essentially, we'll be replacing two boats each year.

 

There will be a charter company onsite that runs the schedule and provides drivers. It's possible that we will allow a limited number of residents to certify as drivers and be included on the insurance policy.

 

We are building a mobile app that will coordinate all scheduling. There will be a base use rate per 15 minute turn that will cover fuel, maintenance, cleaning, driver, etc. Boats and insurance are paid by HOA in order to keep usage rates low and ensure that quality boats are always available and don't depend on high usage fees from a relative small number of active residents. The app will allow you to schedule either exclusive water time or shared water time (big lake only) with the former being slightly more expensive. You'll be allowed a certain number of exclusive times, and a certain number of shared turns to be scheduled more than 4 weeks in advance. Then within 2 weeks of the date, the limit increases slightly. Then within 2-3 days you'll be free to lockup more open turns even if you have reached your future limits. These scheduling limits are only limits in the sense of getting charged just the base rate. If you choose to lockup more turns than your base limit, the price per turn will increase at an accelerating rate. This is not to generate revenue, but simply to fairly allocate availability. For example, a single resident won't be able to jump on and block out times for all major holidays without paying a very hefty price. OTOH, lets say you have a Sweet 16 and your girl wants to have a boating party. You'd be able to lock up a single boat for 4-6 solid hours during the party, but it will cost you far more than the base rate; something like 4x more per turn. If you cut it down to 2 hours it would be maybe 2x more per turn.

 

Think of it like this. You are only paying about $400-500 per year in HOA fees to have new comp level boats at your disposal. There has to be a usage fee to prevent abuse by some individuals at the expense of everyone else. The usage fee has several components;

Prorated Fuel --- fixed cost per turn

Driver --- fixed cost cost per turn

Prorated Maintenance --- fixed cost per turn

Exclusivity fee --- fixed cost per turn where applicable

Reservation fee --- variable fee based on the number of existing reservations.

 

I'd like to allow boating from 6am-10:30pm, but it might have to be 7am due to city noise ordinance. This location doesn't have any other homes close by, and without music pumping they aren't particularly noisy. We will do sound testing to determine if 6am is a possibility as long as music isn't allowed at the earliest and latest hours. With the number of boats we'll be running, my estimates are that a resident would generally be able to get on the water last minute at least 1/2 of the time within a 2 hour window. It might be fully booked on the holiday weekends, but let's be real. You could expect a good experience on a public waterway on those dates either. At least here, if you schedule in advance, you are guaranteed at least a couple 15 minute turns with perfect water even on the busiest days.

[skimtb]

Looks cool. Thanks for sharing all the info. You’ve put a great amount of thought / effort into this and it shows. Look fwd to seeing pics as it develops too.

2-3 boats on a 29 acre lake make be a tough go, especially if they are making surf waves. Not sure I’d expect 1-2 surf boats and a tubing boat to work out, could be a pretty rough tube ride.

[Such_a_brett]

@skimtb

 

3 boats at once would be the exception and would be all tubers. If surf or wakeboard, only 1 or 2 boats at one time.

[skimtb]

Makes a bit more sense then. Although 3 tubers slinging around 29 acres seems scary. Have them wear bubble suits and helmets.

[escmanaze]

@Such_a_brett Thanks for sharing those further details. I really like almost everything you are saying. Now if I could just find a job up in Logan instead of being stuck here in the Salt Lake Valley.

[owennibley]

@Such_a_brett I think I am getting a grasp on what the setup will be like. But just to clarify... for example on the ski lake:

Lets say yearly allotment is 25 sets at the base price. I would schedule 2 sets a week, 4 weeks in advance, then schedule another 2 sets that week (if available) a few days in advance.

Once I hit the 25 set allotment, I would be charged more, say 1.5x the base price, for 25-50 sets, and 2x the base price 50-75 sets, etc.

 

So, if the base rate is $50 per set and I ski 100 sets (I am at 80 sets already this year) and assuming availability is there, the cost would be as follows:

$50 * 25sets = $1,250

($50*1.5) * 25sets = $1,875

($50*2) * 25sets = $2,500

($50*2.5) * 25sets = $3,125

 

Total = $8,750 for 100 sets of 15 minutes.

 

Now I get those numbers are just hypothetical (and I could be way off on my understanding how you explained the setup) and they could change based on the rates, fuel prices, fees, etc. but even though water skiing is my passion, I think my limit would have to be in the $2.5k-$3k range for the season. Hopefully it would be in the $2k range.

 

The appeal of having a good boat and driver is big. One of my issues is finding people to ski with and that know how to drive decent. But the biggest hold up, for me at least, is 2 things:

1. Availability. With high amount of housing in the community, possibly early mornings not available, driver availability, etc. will I get time on the water to fuel my passion?

2. Cost. Could I justify the cost of 75-100 sets per year?

 

I would love more detailed information so I can really crunch numbers and see if this is a real possibility. Do you have a website setup yet or are you accepting lot reservations?

[thager]

Lots of thought put in to this. Kudos on that! Just me but my .02 cents is the development is way too crowded for my liking!

[Such_a_brett]

@owennibley

 

Firstly, rest assured that we are not suggesting a base rate of $50 per set. That would be close to what ski clubs charge. We are not running the boats as a separate endeavor to maximize profit. Rather just ensuring that availability is maintained at a reasonable rate for all residents. My current estimations have the base rate less than half that.

 

The breakdown would likely look something like this (per set)...

Fuel-------------------$8

Maintenance/Cleaning----$2

Driver------------------$9

Exclusivity Fee-----------$4

Booking Fee-------------$0

 

I gave rough examples of the increased base rate just to demonstrate the concept of regulating the use of a public good (as we say in economic terms). We don't intend to have hard cutoff levels. Rather something smoother with visual indicators on the app. So for example, let's assume a base rate of $23/set on the slalom lake. You were talking about getting out very early in the morning, so I don't see availability being a problem for you. IOW, I don't expect that you'd ever need to schedule so many sets so far in advance as to push your price up. In that case, your 100 sets would cost about $2200.

 

But let's assume that you did have to compete for time somewhat and you just decided to go ahead and pre-book according to the schedule that you outlined above. The extra charge wouldn't jump from $23 to $36 to $46 to $58 as you suggested. It would be an accelerating increase in the booking fee that starts at $0 and ramps up.

 

The first handful of extra sets above the limit would be about $27 per, instead of $23 ($4 booking fee). Then the next handful would be around $35 per ($8 booking fee). Then the next handful would be about $47 ($12 booking fee). Then $63... Then $83... So what I'm illustrating is that you'd be allowed to go slightly above your limit with minimal impact, but as you progress further and you start locking down 30 sets a couple months in advance, you'd have to pay for the privilege.

 

Conversely, if you are booking many of your sets within 2-4 days of the slot, the open times are evidence that you aren't depriving anyone else of their fair share, because they would've already booked if they'd wanted to. Also, there are a couple other considerations. The scheduler allows you to have more standing reservations if they aren't all back-to-back. So for example, let's say you want to schedule a single set @7am every mon, wed, fri for the next 6 weeks. Those 18 sets have a much lesser impact on the community than saying you want to book 18 back-to-back sets on Labor Day, 4 months in advance. So the app will allow you to schedule a greater amount of dispersed sets without a booking fee, but a lesser amount of sequential sets. To put it in perspective, blocking out 6 solid hours for a family reunion or something would start to resemble the cost of renting a boat for the day at Bear Lake.

 

Also, the app will allow for standby times. You or your kids can put yourself on a standby list and if someone misses their time, you can jump in. I imagine during the summer there will be a fair number of youth hanging out at the pools and beach, looking to jump into any available standby slots.

[owennibley]

@Such_a_brett

The $50 guess was a shot in the dark and was used for simplistic calculations but what you laid out makes much more sense. I didn't mean to offend. Thank you for explaining that for me. Basically, you pay extra for guaranteed scheduled slots which makes perfect sense.

 

If I could get 75-100 sets in a season for 2.2k, I would absolutely consider this type of setup. Before I wasn't so sure on the amount of homes/families along with the location, but it is growing on me. Still seems like a lot of homes for 2 small lakes. I will be definitely watching this as it develops and talking with the boss (wife). We are considering building a new home in the near future so this could be a great opportunity.