Retraction or Extension?

[georgert]

I'm piggybacking on the discussion Compressed or Straight Legs? https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/20067/compressed-or-straight-legs

In watching the two best women skiers in the world I notice that while both hold great stacked shape coming onto the wakes Regina Jaquess maintains more of a extended leg stance after crossing the wakes and initiating the preturn. In contrast Manon Costard has a decidedly more flexed knee and ankle position after crossing the wakes. I thought some of the tech wonks on this site might want to weigh in on the relative advantages/disadvantages of this movement pattern.

For what it's worth it would appear to me that Costard flexes or retracts the legs allowing the center of mass to cross over the ski and then bring it up on edge quicker as she extends the legs once having crossed over. In staying taller or more extended after the wakes the edge change would seem to me more progressive and drawn out in Jaquess' case. Maybe I'm falling back too much on my alpine skiing background, but I'm really interested in this communities thoughts about turn initiation. The images came from these two YT videos. Note Jaquess skis Goode, Costard is on Connelly.

Regina Jaquess:

Manon Costard:

 

Jaquess:

 

Costard:

 

 

 

[georgert]

159 views and no comments. Seriously? Anyone? Bueller?

[Andre]

There's already a couples of thread going on legs and how to stand...and 99.9 of us can't even come close to skiing like Manon and Regina.Maybe that's why...

For me,i think there's more then one way to skin a cat...

[cragginshred]

They are more similar than different. If you want to compare them to another female who is total upright that would be Whitney.

 

The short answer is it's personal style. What feels right and works for the individual!

[cragginshred]

@georgert here ya go, now this is the opposite style, upright and tall.

 

[Horton]

I believe Regina carries more speed and direction off the second wake. Because Manon keeps her mass forward she does not lose much I do not think she is as efficient as Regina.

 

I can not imagine why anyone would intentionally suck their knees up.

[cragginshred]

@Horton who is as efficient as Regina?

Has she lost a comp in the past 5 years???

 

It seems like the only time another female wins is when Regina does not travel to the comp.

[dvskier]

Regina lost to Manon at last years Worlds. It doesn’t happen often!

[skialex]

Are these videos at the same rope length? Regina is cool at a -32 photo/video shootout and Manon is at a tournament and maybe at shorter line length...

[chris55]

Regina lost at the Masters vs Manon as well.....in 2018

[Horton]

You guys missed my point. I was saying if you're going to copy one of these two women it should probably be Regina. Obviously Manon is fantastic but especially in this one aspect of their skiing I think Regina's technique is superior.

[chris55]

@Horton I agree as a new old slalom skier (64 and starting slaloming in 2014) Regina's technique is easier and more easy to understand and to emulate (34mph skier)

[Horton]

In all the conversations about technique, with all of the minutiae being dissected, when in doubt, I always reference back to Chris Parrish. Somebody find some footage or images of him just off the second wake and you'll have your answer.

[skispray]

@Horton I also think people are losing the forest for the trees in all of these recent threads. A while back, @AdamCord did a post explaining that there are two distinct pressure points while you're in your lean: there's pressure that you're exerting on the rope and there's pressure you're exerting on the ski, and they are different. In my reading of things, it seems like the true fundamental requirement to have an optimal edge change is to release pressure on the ski while maintaining pressure on the rope. This allows you to ride the line around the pylon and arc up high on the boat and turn with a tight line. It seems to me that this is really the essence of what the Denali guys are trying to explain.

 

Now, I have read @adamhcaldwell saying you want to be tall through the edge change, but it seems like the benefits of having the perfect leg flexibility/stiffness are entirely secondary to the more crucial requirement that you get pressure off the ski while maintaining swing pressure through the handle. It seems to me that whatever leg movements get you doing that are what a skier should strive for. And sure, once you've got that working perfectly you could probably get additional benefits from optimizing what your legs do.

 

What I struggle with through the edge change is keeping pressure on the rope when I'm releasing pressure from the ski - as my ski changes edges my shoulders rise up and are not resisting the rope as much (they tend to tip in towards the boat). When I try to keep my back shoulder from doing this I tend to end up just over-pulling/blocking the edge change. In that case I find that thinking about staying on it through the 2nd white wash while letting my legs be a bit flexible allows me to stay on the handle better while still letting the ski change edges. It's not that I'm trying to retract my legs, but I do think about taking pressure out of my legs while trying to maintain my pull. Maybe that's backwards and I should stop, but that's what seems to help me at the moment.

 

It seems like good slalom requires your upper and lower body to do two separate things: you want to be leaning against (away) from the rope with your upper body, you want your lower body to be positioned such that the ski is on its inside edge. And you want to be tall while doing this, which seems to make the aforementioned upper body/lower body goals harder to achieve. Athletically, all of that seems pretty hard to do.

[Horton]

@skispray sort of a change of subject but for most skiers when you bend your knees your hips are going to move back and that moves your hips away form the handle and release pressure on the line there for destroying your outbound direction.

 

What Manon does is kind of amazing and unique. For whatever reason she does suck up her knees but she keeps her connection. Replicating her move would be extremely difficult and not for the general skiing public.

[skispray]

@Horton well I'm screwed then! :D

[Horton]

You will see some knee bend at edge change in this video but mild and it is more likely caused by the wakes and or excess loads.

 

 

 

[Horton]

More

[Horton]

[ForrestGump]

CP=Legend

[DaveD]

Getting totally off the OPs topic. Watching the last part of the last CP video (slow mo in in reverse), it surprised me how early he let go of the handle with his back hand. Reading all the discussions on handle control had me under the impression you needed to keep both hands on the handle out to the buoy line.

[skihart]

I get the straight legs theory and agree with it for the most part. But when moving the ski outbound after center line, it’s almost impossible to keep the pressure on the rope to get you high on the boat while simultaneously releasing the ski pressure and changing edges without using your knees. Have a look at Sacha in this pic. I think what you are seeing here is the key to short line.

You can only really see it from a side view. The boat view or video is not a good representation of what Is going on after the second wake.

 

I think if Sacha was standing taller with straighter legs in this pic he would not be able to move the ski outbound as quickly as he has. If he was taller with straighter legs and attempted this I think he would lose rope pressure as he would tip in towards the boat.

 

 

 

[Horton]

@skihart why do you want the ski to move out quickly?

[skihart]

@Horton i may be wrong but it seems to me that as the rope gets shorter the skier speed across the wakes keeps getting quicker and quicker. In order to deal with the increased speed and still maintain pressure on the rope while not getting separated from the handle you have to do a quicker edge change to start the preturn earlier each rope length.

 

 

[Horton]

@skihart it does get faster as the rope gets shorter and the loads increase but the best skiers transition the earliest and the slowest. The faster you roll onto your inside edge the narrower your path will be to the buoy.

[skihart]

@Horton i see what you are saying. I guess where I am bit fuzzy is that really there are two different factors at play once you roll onto the inside edge. You want to be up on the boat as quickly as possible BUT you are actually decelerating the whole time while moving up right? You need to be in order to turn at or less than the actual boat speed.

What the preturn does, and rate that you do it will ultimately allow you to turn earlier at the buoy right?

It’s nice to think that the slalom swing is a perfect pendulum and that you can just ride it and turn at the apex but I think the better skiers create where the ski apex’s by way of their preturn.

[Horton]

@skihart The more speed you maintain off the second wake the wider your path. The wider your path the slower you will feel at apex.

 

A better way to think about is line tension. If you let the handle out at the second wake you will immediately bleed speed and run a narrow path but you will feel crazy fast at apex and have slack. If you keep the handle close to your body and the line super tight all the way out you will maintain more speed, run a wider path and be slow and smooth at apex.

[skihart]

@Horton. I am having a hard time with that concept. My brain just doesn’t compute it.

 

I like thinking In terms of how high on the boat you get rather than wide or narrow. So a narrow path would mean you didn’t get up as high on the boat as you could have right?

 

So let’s say instead of doing an early edge change you just kept the handle in close but just let the ski go flat instead of transitioning to that inside edge. I am thinking you would maintain more speed and actually advance quicker on the boat BUT in no way would you possibly be able to turn a buoy at that point.

I think technically you would still be following the handle path because you can’t really change that right? As @adamhcaldwell and @AdamCord would say.

 

So I guess what I am getting at is that Inside preturn arc is really the way that a skier can change or regulate that upswing speed at any given line length while still riding that centrifugal force around the pylon. So in essence that will change where the ski apex’s and hence when you can start your turn.

Maybe I am way off base on this one as I am in no way an expert but it seems to me that is what is going on here.