Auto Steer vs Sure Path

[Stevie Boy]

The word is, that the Guy's working on Auto Steer, have it up and running with a lot of the issues ironed out, I believe the Boat would still have some movement and would not feel like you were being Blocked, so if this system works to a level that the Water Ski Federations approve, and gave every skier a consistent boat path, where would that leave the likes of Sure Path, would they use both systems or validate just one for Tournament use.

Will this lead to a significant change in how you ski, similar to the change from Perfect Pass to Zero Off.

What are your views on effectively being driven by a Robot ?

[OREGON85]

As someone with a career in agriculture, it is surprising to me that this didn’t happen a decade ago.

[skiinxs]

Is there another system in development other than the one Sure-Path is working on?

[BraceMaker]

Would sure help getting good passes from more drivers

[RGilmore]

@OREGON85 - Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think gps-controlled combines run through a field of corn at 36 mph with 5% of the combine's weight yanking sideways on it with all it's might on a 35 - 40 foot tether. Somehow I'm thinking that might present a little more of a challenge to keeping your cornrows straight.

[liquid d]

Wow, I really hope we can come up with something that makes the 400 hp freight trains feel worse.....I can't wait!

....maybe I can.

[UWSkier]

I enjoy driving my boat every bit as much as I enjoy swinging on a rope behind it. Nuts to this stuff!

[klindy]

@RGilmore Understanding your point I’d argue that an ag application is at least as complicated. The slalom course is a really small defined area that doesn’t change where an ag application is literally 3 dimensional (elevation changes) with multiple instructions and a need to be as efficient as possible over a much larger area. In other words, it’s more than just straight corn rows.

 

One of my kids is embedded in that market.

[chrislandy]

@klindy I would think the complexity is similar but wholly opposite. Not that I'm in that industry, but engineering.

 

With auto-steering a boat in the course it would have to make probably over 500-1000 corrections in 16s to stay within an inch or so of straight while the vehicle is subjected to external cyclic and shock loads causing yaw, pitch and roll. And to top it off, it has to be able to do it 100+ times back and forth in one session over the exact same path in a medium (water) that doesn't stay still through a series of buoys that drift back and forth.

 

It's a pretty tall ask any system whether it's a human driving or not, but with the development of AI and machine learning it's definitely on the cards.

[Stevie Boy]

@chrislandy from what I understand, Auto Steer will put the boat down the course within the existing tolerances, it is very unlikely it will go straight down the middle.

I do think if you do not work with it, at some point you will get blocked, for it to stay in tolerance.

Information is sparce, but a few people in the know are suggesting that it is closer than it has ever been and there is a real prospect of it happening.

Interesting to see what happens when they trial it, if they get to that point and how people feel about skiing behind it.

[MattP]

@Stevie Boy Sounds like a fun way to drive more people out of tournaments or even the sport.

[dave2ball]

Every boat drives different. How is auto steer going to give a normal hand driven ride? I know there is limited info as of now but I don’t see this being real good for the sport.

[Keith_Menard]

Kind of inevitable with tesla, waymo, let all. Think of all the marriages saved...and the olympics! :)

[klindy]

@chrislandy id agree. Similar technology with different challenges.

[skierjp]

Auto pilots in airplanes now completely land the plane. For years they have been able to fly holding patterns for IFR, fly to multiple fixes while holding altitude and heading.

[aupatking]

It’s coming. We don’t have to like it. We do have to deal with it, eventually. Appears sooner than later. It’s got to beat my wife’s driving

[9400]

Not being a pilot and in reading this thread, it makes me wonder, does driving a boat well (lets just say record tolerance -41) require more precision that landing a plane? Just wondering.

[LoopSki]

How can this be profitable or even break even venture. Must have another use other than waterskiing on a course.

[Andre]

5 different driving style X 3 ZO letters X 3 ZO numbers : 45 possible pull by ZO ! :)

[klindy]

@Andre you forgot the + settings in ZO. So 90 possibilities

[Stevie Boy]

Hey Guy,s

I am not a fan, but it would ensure a level playing field for the Pro,s and eliminate all the allegations of dodgy driving.

If you look at autonomous cars, I guess getting a boat to go up and down a lake, should be relatively simple, in comparison.

 

@MattP There has been so much controversy over the past few years, with questions being asked about Driving, made, fairly or unfairly and people have had hard earned scores taken away from them.

 

These systems have come about to try and eliminate this and make Tournaments fair for everybody, why would you not want to go to a Tournament, knowing that your score would stand ?

 

[RGilmore]

In order for "Autosteer" to have any chance at being accurate it will need to rely on accelerometers - GPS simply cannot refresh fast enough nor accurately enough (IMO). This is how Zero-Off works. But unlike Zero-Off (which is aligned with the relatively stable fore-aft axis of the boat) side-to-side rocking of the boat could "trick" an accelerometer into interpreting those motions as path deviation.

 

Off the top of my head I can only think of a few ways to overcome this obstacle: 1) a single-axis accelerometer placement on the vertical axis of the pylon and coplanar with the water's surface, or 2) two accelerometers separated, but centered one above the other on the vertical axis of the pylon, or 3) a single multi-axis accelerometer being interpreted by one hell of an algorithm.

[liquid d]

I'll never buy a boat equipped with it.

[Mateo_Vargas]

My spy sent me a video of the Auto Steer testing.

 

 

[MattP]

@Stevie Boy im aware but we have checks and balances to find those issues.

 

Just because someone can make it work does not mean that it’s beneficial for the sport.

 

A lot of the crappy driving I get is outside the course. Can someone write a program for that!?

 

If they want to make it required for “Pro” events and Worlds then that’s fine with me. I don’t see what we get by forcing this down to the people who support the sport will accomplish. ZO forced a lot of people out. This would decimate the skiing base.

[OREGON85]

@RGilmore How about a sprayer with 110’ booms going 12 MPH through a rough field or a field cultivator within an inch of an extremely valuable row crop all with repeatable, sub-inch accuracy? You are correct about a combine not needing to be super accurate.

[jcamp]

Seems like a lot of people have already made their minds up on something that none of us have even seen yet.

[dave2ball]

I understand autopilot and basic driving following a GPS path. With the load from the skier placed on the boat causing the boat to slide to one side a driver would counter steer. Would auto steer counter enough and long enough with out going going back to centerline to allow a skier not to get a lose line in the turn? Or would it be a very stiff ride with no room for boat path error?

[JackQ]

Steve Boy, There are no autonomous cars, at least ones that can achieve Level 4 or 5.

 

I know Tesla has promised and Uber is betting ( they claimed it would be achieved in 2019) on, but are likely still a decade away.

 

They are struggling with a plethora of challenges, just think of a trash bag blowing across the highway, will the system know it is a bag, not a child or a concrete block, does it slam on the brakes (with possible rear end collision), or swerve (into a path of another vehicle) or plow on through. Going down the highway isn't that hard, add in pedestrians, cyclist, cross streets, pet, trash, obscure signage, stupid drivers, limited visibility/rain/snow/ice and it gets very hard.

[BraceMaker]

Engineering for the purpose of getting the top 100 people better pulls would be pointless, engineering so that my 67 year old mother feels comfortable driving through the course? Priceless.

 

 

[Stevie Boy]

Hey Guy,s I do not know if it is a good or bad thing, I enjoy driving the boat, I used to enjoy driving the boat with a stop watch in one hand whilst controlling the throttle and my other on the steering wheel and getting real close to the tolerance or even spot on.

Then came Perfect Pass and Zero Off, so now the system takes care of the throttle and I give the skier the best drive I can, if Sure Path can improve my driving or give me a indications as to where I might need to improve I welcome that.

Do I want to sit in a boat that is fully automated, I do not think so, if Auto Steer becomes a reality and I am asked to sit in the boat, I guess I will.

 

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@Stevie Boy ” but it would ensure a level playing field for the Pro,s.....”

 

That belief is the ultimate fallacy. The same problem exists with ZO - the electronic/mechanical response will NOT be the same for all skiers. To pick an example, there is NFW the response will be the same for Mike Kjellander’s 135 turn vs someone like terry Winter. That is the patently unequal and unfair.

 

Human driver is by far better. Things like surepath are great driver aids, but turning over the response to a computer and software programmer is a really bad idea.

[Jody_Seal]

Love some of the comments..

 

"it would ensure a level playing field for the Pro's".

No such thing as a pro in our sport as none of our sanctioning bodies recognize a professional level.

And I would have to disagree also as the best slalom skiers will still be the best slalom skiers as well as nothing will change in the pecking order of our sport

 

 

 "don’t have to like it. We do have to deal with it, eventually."

Another funny statement. Money talks and if skiers won't buy it , it won't sell.

 

My silly comments:

Hope they have a very large product liability insurance policy.

 

Anal waterski geekisim is what I read into this potential product that really is very unnecessary and could potentially be another nail in the coffin of our sports continued decline.

 

 

[brody]

In a world of 100k boats this will just add to the cost, reduce the ability of many to participate. I enjoy driving the boat, it is almost 50% of my love of the sport. I would never buy a boat with auto steer

[Martin1980]

Auto steer could be great for the sport! I'm surprised of the negative comments about a product that know one in this thread has ever used. If auto steer feels the same or better than a good hand driver just think of how nice that will be for those that don't have good drivers. I will almost for sure buy auto steer so my wife can drive the course for me/others which she currently does not do. If auto steer turns out to not be as good as a good hand river then I will turn it off when I have a good hand driver available to drive me, if just my wife is at the lake to drive me then auto steer will be turned on. :)

[paul]

We have 400ton autonomous haul trucks with no driver at work that are much more similar in how they would operate than an autonomous car (closed course, known centreline etc.) they are down to the centimetre and are actually too accurate. They have developed code to make them offset where they can to not rut up the roads as bad.

 

That is the next step on a closed lake - skiing by yourself with remote start/stop.

[RGilmore]

@OREGON85 My point is not so much the need for "sub-inch accuracy" - allowable centerline error for world-record slalom passes is several inches. What I'm talking about a live-action unpredictable mass weighing around 5% of the ski boat's mass pulling and yanking on the boat from unpredictable angles with an unpredictable rhythm.

 

Calculate the weight of the 110'-boom sprayer, or the field cultivator, attach a motor vehicle weighing 5% of that to a low-elastic tether and tell the vehicle driver to go crazy yanking around behind the farm implement... THEN we can talk about sub-inch accuracy.

 

OR - and this is a far better idea let's agree to disagree :)

 

[dbutcher]

@MattP I am curious about your statement that ZO has driven people out of the sport. You may well be correct, but I am not aware of any. Nor have I heard of anyone leaving the sport because of ZO. Overall, ZO has made the sport better for skiers I think. Auto Steer could be different. Steering and giving a good slalom pull is the only challenge and fun left for drivers today. Who knows how Auto Steer will be for skiers in the slalom course. For what it's worth, technology is so engrained in the entire population today (especially the young) that it may be accepted. Even if it's not, will it make anyone leave the sport? It won't me. Now, Sure Path is a good thing for human drivers and hopefully skiers - unless drivers shoot for perfect Sure Path scores and forget about the skier. Since almost all drivers are also skiers, that is not likely. Just one person's opinion.

[hammerski]

Most of us really like to drive! It’s fun when you’re in sync with the skier and you know he got a great ride. The different feedbacks from different boats make it fun, some more fun than others. That said, for training, having the ability to have anyone drive is pretty intriguing. Having the ability to dial the boat in for a little extra swerve on your hardest pass, then the ability to tighten it up a little at a time might be pretty cool! ?

[EricW]

Do you think it will have settings like "Becky" or "Chad"??

[Vernon Reeve]

Seems like the system could just look at the buoys to know if the boat is centered or not, kind of like lane assist in cars. That would eliminate the need for gps accuracy and accelerometers.

[Jody_Seal]

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[MISkier]

@Vernon Reeve, you are assuming that the boat guides are in exact tolerance and that they straddle the centerline of the course equally. Measurements on boat path are taken from centerline and, in some cases, the buoy tolerances will allow deviation from centerline such that positioning the boat directly/exactly between them does not necessarily guarantee you are on the centerline of the course. Even in hand-driven instances, the boat guides are essentially a good approximation of where to put the boat, but not the actual point of reference the judges will use for assessing boat path deviation.

 

If the rule changed to have the reference point be the midpoint between the boat guides (doubtful, since they move during a pass), then a system like you mention might have some potential.

[Horton]

Ok guys. These systems have been being developed for a few years.

 

I believe SurePath has worked on it but I do not know how far along they are.

 

I know SkiPath has tested working prototypes.

[Vernon Reeve]

@MlSkier I was thinking it would look ahead and extrapolate a line using the buoys out front to where the boat currently is, just like our human brains do. Could even put a few rods in a row on the end shores for sight alignment if needed. It should be close enough just like it is now. Just thinking it might be easier than gps, but maybe not. However, for the ultimate pull, if the boat knew where it was in the course (using gps since it's already mapped into zero off), it could swerve a little to give the skier the perfect pull (eliminate blocking). But the driver would have to enter the line length. Just thinking out loud as you can tell:) I for one, would like a system like this. It would be nice to not have to worry so much about beginner drivers.

[UWSkier]

[slow]

I think its great. We have a pretty low level skiing community here. I think it could facilitate more people willing to give you a pull if some of the pressure is taken out of the job. We all don’t live in areas with experienced drivers. My wife for one would love it. Expand the sport.