sure-path rules

[disland]

2021 Class C tournament, sure-path is being used. At the end of a pass sure-path shows red "mandatory re-ride"

[RAWSki]

No choice to give skiers the option?

[Horton]

@disland as of today there is nothing in the rule book pertaining to the use of sure path in class the events.

 

at least for the coming season sure path is for the driver and judges information only ( Class C ). it is an instructive tool. if the officials determine that the skier is substantially advantaged or disadvantaged I don't see why they could not offer the skier every ride.

[aupatking]

Serious question from a non-rated driver. My question: how hard is it to actually be in tolerance? Would you say that 65% of our practice passes likely don’t qualify? 30%? 15%? This is exactly what I have been worried about with Sure-Path. We had, all but, eliminated re-rides with PP and even better with ZO. I’ve been offered re-rides 2 times since I started skiing tournaments in 2013-2014 after 20 years not skiing, and those were human error of wrong speed or ZO setting. I remember constant re-rides, back in the early 90’s.

Unless sure-path is doing the driving really soon, it needs to have a significant break-in time with access to EVERY tournament driver. Even for the people skiing, those constant re-ride tournaments are unbearable.

[ral]

@aupatking , it is not hard if you practice with it. I would say that many practice passes are out mostly because of the lack of feedback. It has improved our local drivers a lot in a short time by having it always in the boat.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

10.07 Boat Path

A. The boat path is intended to be a straight line along the centerline of the course.

B. Where end course is available [bold mine], the towboat pylon shall not deviate by more than 20cm (7.87in) from the course centerline. For instances where end course video is not available, the boat shall follow a straight path as close to the centerline of the course as possible.

 

So its a pretty reasonable argument to say that Surepath is equavelent to end course video. So if you have either end course or Surepath, even in a Class C, if the boat path deviates to the skier's advantage, its a mandatory unprotected re-ride. If its to the skier's disadvantage, its an optional protected re-ride.

 

The conundrum comes in if you are pulling kids at slow speeds or breaking in a new driver at longer lines/slower speeds. The rules haven't caught up with common sense, so if I was CJ or CD at your Class C, I would make an executive decision that passes less than 28 off at division max speed would not be subject to boat path re-rides.

[aupatking]

I appreciate your feedback @ral. How do I go about getting Sure Path? I would like to pull skiers in only “in-tolerance” passes, every time. I’d like to think that I’m on the “better than decent” side of driving. I’ve pulled several pros who have actually asked that I drive for them, so.... maybe I am. Maybe. End course video is not likely to be something I can set up on my lake. I just want my skiers getting the same pull as they would in a tournament.

And @Bruce_Butterfield my answer to this poll assumes reasonable decisions like your “less than” exclusion. I think that’s a solid reasoning.

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield my spy on the rules Committee tells me there will VERY likely not be a Surepath rule for class C in 2021

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@horton I agree. Its similar to end course for class C. Overkill except for a learning tool. But to the original question/poll - if you have it, what are the required re-rides? The rules haven’t caught up, so I offered my opinion/suggested usage.

 

 

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield What is interesting is the debate over how the rules should read. I believe SurePath Tournament Mode is going to show the greatest deviation 5 meters before and 10 meters after the boat guide. I am not sure it should be as cut and dry as the old fast time and slow time rules.

 

Just because the boat is 20cm to the right at one ball does not mean the driver is helping the skier.

 

Also as the rope gets shorter all of this matters more and more. At 22 or 28 off I dare anyone to feel a 20cm deviation. At 39 off a pro skier might feel every 3-5 cm.

[Kelvin]

All of the drama that's brought us to the need for sure-path is based on issues with deep shortline skiers. I hope the rules committee is focused on this and provides some relaxation of the letter of the law for slow speeds and long lines. We don't need constant re-rides for the young junior skiers.

[klindy]

All, I am sure they will not be a specific rule to use SurePath (or other monitoring system including video) for class C tournaments this year. For L/R the IWWF rule book does have language on how to use it in a tournament scenario but it is not mandatory for 2021.

 

In the Southern Region, we unanimously agreed to make it mandatory for all Class L/R tournaments in the Southern Region for 2021. When used, EC video is used as a backup. SurePath data will be required to be submitted for those tournaments.

 

I think those saying it's "optional" are ignoring other, important parts of the rule book. As @Bruce_Butterfield highlighted above rule 10.07 talks about Boat Path -

 

10.07 Boat Path

A. The boat path is intended to be a straight line along the centerline of the course.

B. Where end course is available, the towboat pylon shall not deviate by more than 20cm (7.87in) from the course centerline. For instances where end course video is not available, the boat shall follow a straight path as close to the centerline of the course as possible.

C. Class E tournaments also see Rule 14.04.B on Record forms.

 

 

10.07 A says "straight line along the centerline". This is for all tournaments - class F thru R. The question is HOW you know the boat path is straight. For class F & C there are no requirements to use any technology to confirm this and we typically rely on boat driver and boat judge and, sometimes, the skier who asks for a boat path reride which is agreeable to the judges. In other words, the REQUIREMENT is for a straight boat path and corrective action needs to take place if it's not straight. Using SurePath (in a class C tournament) would HELP the officials know if it's in fact straight. It's not a requirement but it's certainly not prevented from being used. If used, it makes sense to use the results (same with video).

 

 

10.07 B discusses "where end course is available" (I think something descriptive should be added here like "end course monitoring or measuring is available"). Here it defines a maximum variation from the centerline which, unless either video or a boat path monitoring system is used, is impossible to measure. Again there is no limitation on class of tournament and, inferred is IF it's used, here's how to use it. Makes sense to use the results if you use it.

 

10.07 C is specific for Class E tournaments and discusses cumulative deviation for record verification. Here end course monitoring (video) is required so it can be actively measured.

 

10.10 D discusses Rerides - specifically boat path rerides and references 10.07 - "D. Boat Path Deviates Outside the Bounds of Boat Gates: See Rule 10.07". Again there is no distinction between a Class C/E/L/R tournaments. Simply says if the boat path is out of the bounds of the boat gates, you give the skier a reride.

 

Finally, rule 1.12 discusses tolerances -

"1.12 Tolerances

In any activity involving the performance of an official where a tolerance is involved, it is the official's responsibility to be as close as possible to the actual specification. All tolerances are to allow for human error and the use of tolerances by Officials to improve skier performance will not be tolerated." This means that ALL officials have a responsibility to follow the rules and tolerances are held to actuals. This again applies to all classes of tournaments. As an aside, this is the rule that the PanAm region and IWWF TC have used to eliminate or reduce scores for all skiers at a tournament deemed not following the rules (especially as it pertains to boat path).

 

So, the question I have is, if you use SurePath at a class C tournament (setup properly) AND it comes up the boat path was out of tolerance, as an official responsible to maintain the rules are followed and tolerances maintained, how can you NOT call for a reride? This is like using gate cameras and seeing a missed gate and saying "not needed in a class C, lets ignore it..."

 

It is correct that it's not required for class C and most certainly will not be required this year for class C (or class E/L/R anywhere beyond the Southern Region). But if you do use it, I'd suggest the rules support following the results of what you see using the technology.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@klindy "But if you do use it, I'd suggest the rules support following the results of what you see using the technology."

 

So at a Class C if an LOC wants to use surepath as a learning tool, I guess they better turn it off for all but deep shortline or be faced with endless re-rides. Kinda defeats the purpose.

 

If a CD wants to give a new assistant driver some seat time in a slower speed, longer line group - and use surepath as a learning tool - your suggestion either takes away the use of that tool, or creates many re-rides.

 

Giving a kid at 19mph long line a re-ride because the boat is 10" toward him is just plain stupid. Our organization does enough stupid things already, there is no need to add to it.

 

Until the rules catch up, and LOC should be able to use surepath and let the CJ/CD put some sanity into how its applied.

[MISkier]

I agree that some rule adjustments might be needed to prevent endless re-rides, at least until everyone's driving improves enough to enforce it.

 

I hope we will all get access to the path data collected to see just how many passes are, in fact, out of tolerance. It would be helpful to see how close the driving is in any and all settings. You need to sample the population to determine what the real world occurrences are and use those observations to help craft the most reasonable rules.

 

I can hardly wait for the next leap forward.

 

"Introducing TightLine™, the new tournament regulation confirmation technology. TightLine™ combines laser precision and radar with image recognition software to detect and measure the skier's handle thousands of times during a slalom pass to ensure that the overall length never exceeds the maximum allowed, even under 1000+ pounds of pull. Measuring handles on the dock is so 2020. Pull into the future with TightLine™ and measure the handles where it really counts - while you're skiing."

[Chad_Scott]

While I am no part of the rules committee I will offer this as insight. I have been involved in conversations with those responsible for drafting the rules associated with sure path or any boat tracking technology. The discussion involving re rides has been in discussion and I know they are discussing re rides from 38 off and beyond. This is certainly not official but those in the discussion are not looking to be unreasonable It is my opinion that they are not introducing this to make life more difficult however just the opposite. As kelvin can tell you. It takes hours to download end course video and to upload for review. The sure path is easy to load the data. It is also great for drivers that want to improve.

[RAWSki]

@klindy please elaborate on the use of End Course video as a back-up to sure-path. Is this an online traditional set up or off-line?

Sounds similar to running magnetic timers to check GPS timing??

[disland]

@Horton we need a "that hilarious" button for @MISkier

[klindy]

@RAWSki EC video as a backup for SurePath (or other approved system) would be the same as we have currently. The idea is if SurePath fails or temporarily doesn't work, there is a video to watch for 11.25 and shorter. The rules say we need to monitor boat path 11.25 and shorter for E/L/R. So you'd have a choice of getting SurePath working again or going to video.

 

Using SurePath means you don't have to dedicate an official watching a monitor.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

As I think about this more, since the rulebook is silent on surepath or any similar system, it is perfectly logical to use it a training device only. Any boat path re-rides would only be determined by whatever other prior means were used (driver, boat judge or skier request, etc). Any "out of tolerance" indicated by surepath would be ignored.

[teammalibu]

@klindy, who watches/monitors the sure path during the R tourney, and how long will end course be required for backup?

[Chad_Scott]

@teammalibu the tracking system is linked to the live scoring. The judges will see the screen with the deviations. It will also be green if good or red if not

[skiinxs]

If re-rides are being discussed for red screens, another question needs to be discussed. What about a pass missed by Sure-Path. If the whole pass isn't recorded, do we re-ride that pass. It happens and this should be in the rules discussion as well.

[Horton]

@skiinxs I'm yet to see sure path not record an entire pass unless the Wi-Fi that goes down or something. generally speaking the system just works.

[skiinxs]

@Horton I absolutely love the system, but I disagree. After using my system for well over 1,000 passes over the last year my best estimate is at least 50 missed or partial missed passes. The reliability improved significantly after I switched from using my cell phone as a hot spot for the rover to a sim card in the rover, but there were still missed passes. Some were certainly wifi issues at the base station at my dock, some were poor gps reception in the boat, some ended up unexplained, as sometimes it is hard to troubleshoot while you are driving. Many of those "other" causes were likely an unstable voltage source if the boat was shut off at the end of the pass to talk to the skier. Those were improved by using a portable power bank to stabilize voltage. James made a software improvement mid-year that helped isolate if the correction signal from the server was over 60 seconds old with a green indicator and number of seconds old the correction signal was. I think most of the other issues are quality of gps signal at the pylon antenna. I was using the small antenna all year and James recommends the larger antenna for important use, i.e. record tournaments. My larger antenna was delivered today, but it is winter here and I won't know if that completely eliminates missed passes for me for a couple months. Once again I think the system is amazing, but if rules are being developed, the boat crew needs to know what to do if rerides are dictated by out of tolerance passes, and there is no data to tell if it is out of tolerance. Certainly even if the system is functioning flawlessly, a loss in wifi signal to the base for over a minute would cause a missed pass. Does anyone have an ISP that never has a glitch? At my lake, there are lots of ISP glitches, as I am sure is the case at many remote lakes. My recommendation would be no data = no reride.

[lpskier]

You can use Sure Path in a tournament for two reasons: 1) as the official determination of boat path, in which case that reride ought to be given; or 2) for information purposes, which is to say it is not official.

[skierjp]

We never had a back up for end course!!!!!

So why for Sure Path?

I’ve seen end course video quality in R tournaments that was pathetic. I don’t believe I’ve been at a tournament that the event was stopped to measure or review the end course video for tolerance. That’s been done days after the event.

[RAWSki]

I agree with @skierjp don't make it more complicated with a back up for one item. Commit to the new tech or do not.

 

[BG1]

Set up 2 Sure-path’s in the boat LOL. They could have had 2 video cameras like an over/under shotgun all this time but nobody thought of it thank goodness. It would be some bad luck if someone missed a record because of a technical failure but from what I’m hearing on here sounds like that is very unlikely with Sure-path.

[Horton]

The bottom line is that you may use the data in a Class C but it is not technically official data.

 

If I am a boat judge or driver and see a skier miss and then see from the SurePath data that it was likely driver error I would immediately inform the skier so they can request a re-ride.

 

It is not like boat times where the rules dictate the re-ride rules. I think we can use it with a little bit of judgement.

 

Are we making this hard for not reason? Can we agree that bad boat path is unlikely a good reason for a Girls one 19mph re-ride? Can we just use common sense?

[ski6jones]

Common sense is not that common.

[wski1831]

Sure Path looks like a really good system, is improving all the time and a good addition to tournaments. It seems to me trying it out for a year will allow judges and drivers to get used to it. Whether it shows red or green at the end of a pass if the boat crew determines it’s warranted there should be a reride given.

[wski1831]

And what @skisixjones said.

[klindy]

The southern region voted to require SurePath (or another boat path monitoring system when its approved) for all record tournaments starting this season. The difference between sorting and sending in video along with record confirmation (remember national records get confirmed too) will make a massive difference alone. There are enough systems and good RTK signals in most areas so it should be pretty straightforward.

 

Also, the connection to WSTIMS means no more calling in times either. They are automatically uploaded.

[teammalibu]

I always keep a backup for end course and gate cameras ready for plug and play! Nothing lasts forever!