Reinvent my onside

[6balls]

no waste, such economy

[oldmanskier]

Well said 6balls.

Back sided the buoys every line length. That was fun to watch. Thanks for posting that Adam.

[FlowPointMethod]

@adamhcaldwell It would be nice to hear the WHY behind your belief that level shoulders is bad, and that you want your outside hand forward and over the inside edge....

 

As a matter of objective science (and in an absence of good information,...which seems to be where our sport has been since day 1) its often too easy to fall into Confirmation Bias, and believe that something we have taken note of Must be the reason for the favorable result.

 

Andy and CP are 2 of the best, but that doesn't mean they were/are perfect.

[Adam Caldwell]

I've learned not to geek out too much on this forum. But honestly, a simple FBD of a skier in a banked ski in a turn will give you the WHY.

 

Any movement of mass towards the ski, versus toward the center of the turn will lead to a reduced moment over the edge of the ski which means reduced "reaction" force holding the skier up. Same is true for axial rotation. Movement of the outside hand to "open" the body, creates a resultant that takes the ski out of the turn and it doesn't necessarily facilitate a 'tighter turn' with better a better position.

 

Certainly speed is part of the equation though. Come into a steep banked turn without enough centripetal force (outbound swing energy) and you'll fall over. Imagine riding a bicycle on a banked track. Go too slow, and you fall over right?. In that situation, I can see needing to drop hips toward the track and level the shoulders to keep "balanced".

 

Kind of like these guys standing still on a banked curve with nice level shoulders. They cannot stand "normal" to the surface without falling over due to a lack of centripetal force.

 

Consider this photo... Who is going to make it around the track the fastest?

 

 

 

Then there's this guy whos dominating the snow ski world. Through my lenses, I see him doing all of the things described earlier this thread as he navigates a high energy turn with a lot of speed.

 

Should we aim to teach people how to band-aid their weaknesses of arriving at the turn with a lack of centripetal force? Or do we fix the weaknesses and teach timing, connection & swing in such a way that will allow them to take their skill set to the next level.

 

To excel in this sport you need to learn that speed is your friend. Speed alone is what can make the pass feel "SLOW and EASY" ( Given that uncontrolled/mistimed speed can be punishing). But, skiing too slowly almost always makes the pass will feel FAST and HARD. Especially at these shorter line lengths.

 

 

 

[scuppers]

just can't argue with that post. I believe Adam is correct

[RGilmore]

"We droppin' SCIENCE, son."

[Horton]

@adamhcaldwell I follow the mechanics you are describing. If I was a machine and all if my movements were ideal then perhaps I would be on board. As a old human I need the additional balance afforded to me by keeping my shoulders more level approaching the ball. Maybe not literally parallel to the water but less of a incline than the top of my ski.

 

Especially moving through off side, if my shoulders are high and more level-ish I can articulate the ski with my feet, knees and hips. This gives me control and sets me in a strong position at exit.

 

I can think of a number of things that I think are helped by keeping my head up and shoulders more level. One is connection. Maybe this is a band-aid but I think when my shoulders are more level leaving the second wake it is more natural for me to keep my handle closer to my body longer.

[gavski]

@adamhcaldwell - agree with you 99%, but gonna have to call you on your idea re: snow skiing...that photo isn’t ideal as it shows the skiing inclining into the turn, which isn’t ideal...he isn’t balanced...I appreciate that the camera angle is different, but look at Marcel Hirscher - the best slalom skier ever:

 

 

 

And will Asher:

 

 

 

Hirscher was so far ahead and dominant of the rest, and it was down to his ability to counter balance in the turn..the more you counter balance, the more you have grip. If you incline/ lean into the turn, you lose grip, and therefore speed..Hirscher was able to do this at the top of his turn - in other words his body was downhill of his skis, whilst the rest were waiting for the bottom half of the turn - and gravity to balance against...

[AdamCord]

Ok I HAVE to jump in now. The cross talk because of semantics is painful.

 

@Horton - Are you telling me that on your offside you are NOT doing exactly what @adamhcaldwell is describing?:

 

 

@gavski out of these 3 images which skier is going the fastest? Marcel also looks to already be moving up into the transition here while Ligety is in the middle of the turn.

 

 

Lasty...Shoulders in line with body, outside hand over inside edge of ski....yep checks out:

 

 

The point is not everyone is seeing or feeling the same things here. No you do not want to put your inside shoulder under water. No you don't want to be so square that you bend your body into a pretzel. Do I think Mapple and CP style is closer to ideal than people who ski very open with level shoulders? Well let's check the list of who has set world records....

 

[6balls]

https://www.instagram.com/p/COQMj7pBcUs/

 

Just do it like this

[Drago]

"The point is not everyone is seeing or feeling the same things here. "

Please don't make ski racing comparisons. That's painful.

[Adam Caldwell]

Running shortline - 35off an shorter is a lot closer to giant slalom. Longer lines are more similar to the slalom.

 

Watching this guy in action really clears up a lot of the 'confusion' of these still shot pictures. There's no denying the action of the inside shoulder, lean angle, and rotation of the upper half of the body into the turns.

 

[matthewbrown]

If I was going peruse the skier database and look to glean the most bang for my buck, I’m not sure that I would choose Mapple or Parish to study. Nowhere on this earth do we have anyone remotely as athletic and strong as Mapple was, not to mention his perfect physical frame. Neither do we have a 6’5” ultra strong and athletic skier like Parrish. These were outliers because of their God given gifts. Because of these gifts they were not as technically sound as they could have been. I would certainly study a Nate Smith(regardless of what you think of him personally)as he has clearly shown to be the greatest skier of all time, without the Mapple gifts of size, strength and athletic ability. He rides the ski much more efficiently than anyone ever has and his scores show it. Even Freddy Winter in my eyes would be better than studying Mapple. These skiers realized that pulling as hard as you can through both wakes and then edgechanging into an immediate banked turn is not ideal. There was a better more efficient way and they’ve found it. If Mapple had Nate’s technique he would have run 43 I’m certain of it.

[AdamCord]

@matthewbrown ok now you’re getting into 3 hour debate over a case of beer territory

[matthewbrown]

@AdamCord Ill be Biden and you can be Trump?

Oh See, I didn’t really say skiing and you can be skiing but Horton’s algorithm blew it up. I wanted to say that you can be bad orange man in this debate and I’ll be the senile grandpa candidate.

[jimbrake]

@drago - I agree. In ski racing there are so many athlete, speed, terrain, and course set variations that you can never take one pic and say "See? See how the best do it?" You can watch endless video from different angles and see common threads in technique. If you do that in ski racing, you'll see a lot of relatively level shoulders, but the forces a ski racer is dealing with are entirely different than those acting on a water ski slalom skier. I like level shoulders, though.

[AdamCord]

@matthewbrown I think the “Who is the GOAT in xxxx sport” debate is the highest level of discourse humans can achieve. Way way more important than anything to do with politics.

[jimbrake]

@adamhcaldwell - I'm going against what I just posted, but have to chime. I've watched endless Ligety video as well as other top World Cup GS skiers and I don't see what you're seeing. Upper body rotation into the turn? Maybe on a turn or two specific to the course set and hill specifics, but as a rule the early part of the turn above or into the fall line is more like holding off rotation. Look at his position at 2:18 (crap I don't know how to do a screen grab). That is classic modern GS. His chest is pointed across his skis to the outside of the turn and he will hold that until the skis start to come back under him. That is a powerful, high-edge angle, upright torso, edge-holding position. It's also brutal on the lower back, hence Ted's retirement this year (in addition to other family forces).

 

 

 

[Adam Caldwell]

@jimbrake

 

The movement I see in the upper body rotating into the turn is WAY uphill of the actual gate. In the series below, I see the body/skis unweight in the second frame, and the upper body being to rotate into the next turn as the skis swing out from underneath.

 

Just like Mapple and Parrish. They're turning during the swing, such that by the time they arrive at the ball, they don't need to do much but wait for the boat to pull the line tight. The turn was finished way up-course of the buoy (or in teds case - the gate).

 

 

Now, with downhill, the gates are all over the place, some turns must be way sharper and tighter while others are more open/straight-line. I think when there's less need for massive direction change, you'll see a more level shoulder, open position with more lower body angulation to make the shallow turn on the gate, but simultaneously setup earlier for the COMs overall path into the next set of gates. BUT, if the next gates call for a huge demand on the skier to change direction, I'm seeing these top skiers make huge upperbody commitments into the turn WAY uphill of the oncoming gate.

 

 

[lpskier]

@Drago Don't tell that to Rossi.

[slow]

Marcel Hirscher was the GOAT in GS. He was all about level shoulders. I really don’t think it relates to w

aterskiing

[Adam Caldwell]

Consider the points mentioned in earlier in this thread.

 

Heres a snapshot of both of Nate and Mapple at 2 ball 32 off.

 

These guys have a lot more similarities then differences.

 

@Horton take a look at where your free hand is when your ski tip comes across 2 ball . This might help bring some new perspectives on what to you might want to be playing with on that 2/4 side. Re-inventing an onside is not easy, and wont happen without a new perspective or focus!

 

[jimbrake]

@slow - only after Ligety’s back started to go. But yeah - Hirscher was great. Actually Stenmark was the man first.

[Horton]

@adamhcaldwell I am all about unlearning my "Mechanical Bull Rider" free arm thing at On Side. I am unsure if I will take it as far as you suggest but I 100% want to move in that direction.

 

What I am unclear on is what kind of beer will be used for this 3 hour debate.

[Horton]

@adamhcaldwell

 

Also @AdamCord told me to tell you to stop reading BallOfSpray and go build some c85s

[jimbrake]

@adamhcaldwell - you’re seeing early down the hill movement to stay with or get ahead of the skis combined w some steering (more of a slalom thing) during an unweighted phase that is dictated by course set and pitch of the hill. We could debate and find similarities to water ski slalom, but my thought is that alpine methods are too diverse and variable based on way more factors to try to make a straight comparison to water ski slalom. Would love to have those discussions in person! Would be fun.

[Adam Caldwell]

@jimbrake - thats exactly it.

 

From CL to release of the handle in shortline slalom is EXACTLY THE SAME THING as early down the hill movement to stay with or get ahead of the skis!

 

This look familiar?

 

[ISP6ball]

My head hurts......

[jimbrake]

@adamhcaldwell - yeah but. Yeah, but water ski slalom is inherently asymmetric. Nate doesn't look like that on the other side.

 

Are you saying from CL to release of the handle that you're (you, specifically, are) trying to move early downcourse and to the inside to prep for the upcoming turn? Aren't you trying to stay connected and ride the swing out and up? I understand being/getting tall to stay up over your feet and with your ski, but what you are describing almost sounds like coming off the line and getting loose all (early down the hill movement) in the name of early turn prep. Now I'm lost. I thought we were all trying to keep the line tight and swing high up on the boat.

[Adam Caldwell]

@jimBrake - YES. It’s a mind bender I know.

 

The more early rotation you can create, the more you can rotate the ski up-course of the ball. That means you can create more down-course deceleration prior to the ball, and have a tighter line earlier.

 

Getting the ski to rotate earlier is not going to decelerate your swing provided you generated adequate energy into CL.

 

You can physically turn and rotate your body and the ski while you are traveling around the pylon during the upswing and still be gaining width and height on the boat.

 

Nates hips are facing back into the course almost as early on the HS turn also. Which is crazy impressive for 41. Upper body slightly different position then offside, but hip rotation is not as drastically different as you might expect.

 

 

[AdamCord]

@jimbrake Now you’re asking the right question. Can you stay connected while also starting the turn...? Mapple sure as hell could, so can Nate.

[Intheday]

Interesting observations on coaching styles in this thread.

 

The bad, I see ex wrong, don’t do this.

 

The good, make this change it will do this.

 

Continue on folks

[skispray]

@adamhcaldwell and @AdamCord are you basically saying the goal is to get the ski smearing as early as possible? By definition if you’re smearing early after edge change it would mean you’re starting the turn and also still continuing outbound.

[ALPJr]

I’m glad that it’s almost summertime

[gavski]

@adamhcaldwell - back to the 99% that I do subscribe to (gonna have to agree to disagree on your ski racing theory)...

 

In the Preturn, are you advocating active hip rotation in the direction of the turn as you swing up on the boat? I tried something along this many years ago and was surprised at the results..

 

Surffice to say that all I am concentrating on is staying Centred on the ski off the 2nd wake and trying to stay connected to the line as I swing up on the boat. I am trying to arrive at apex with my torso on top of my feet. In other words, not to arrive at the buoy with my feet ahead of me. If I get that right, the turn is automatic...if I don’t, my only move is inwards and I fall backwards onto the tail of the ski as I finish the turn...@Mattewbrown nailed what I am trying to achieve with his snapshot of Horton off the 2nd wake...

 

Plenty an elite skier has told me that the key to short line skiing is what you do off the 2nd wake...it’s the most crucial element, the hardest to perfect and the most lacking part in the majority of skiers - me included...it’s also almost impossible to teach because the harder you ski, the harder it is to do.

 

You are doing a valiant job of explaining it, but your athletic ability & balance is on a different level.

[Adam Caldwell]

@gavski, in short, YES. And you would be surprised how much it can help you stay up on the ski. Falling onto the tail happens because our hips and ski are not clocking into the turn with the shoulders leaving the second wake.

 

We need to utilize our bodies connection with the line to pull the far side of our body into the turn. If we’re connected and stacked properly then the pull is what will help the ski rotate/yaw VERY early crossing the second wake/whitewater. This then helps you to move up on the boat even faster and continue a high speed swing (with the added benefit of the ski turning during said swing)

 

Conversely if your not connected, then what happens is your shoulders turn into the boat, but the ski continues to point outbound along with your hips as you cross the second wake, and then your body is automatically forced into a counter rotated and separated position much too soon.

 

If you can manage to use the connection with the boat as a means to create body rotation during the swing around the pylon then you can backside the course all day long. In fact, you’ll start to see the course and your body like you see those Mapple/Nate chest cams with your ski pointing back across the lake before you even arrive at the ball.

 

The hardest part is breaking decades of thinking about it in a different other way and starting over on how your mind/body interprets the sequence of kinetic events.

 

It’s not that Mapple was doing it wrong. He just knew that the wider he swung (properly connected), the more rotation/turn he had before he peeled off the handle. I don’t see Nate doing anything different, and in fact, if anything, Nates staying on the handle EVEN longer then Andy and is also getting the ski to unweight much earlier also.

 

The deeper I go into studying the mechanics and dynamics of this sport, the more Mapple makes sense to me. He no longer looks like he’s just pulling long into an instant edge change - as previously stated.

 

Watch the swing and release into 1 ball in this video. See how early his hips are facing back into the course (toward 2/4) a moment before he releases off the handle? This isn’t “poor technique”. It’s a lesson on how to run shoreline. If you can get even 10% of this working in your favor, you'll reap the rewards going into 2 ball.

 

 

[gavski]

@adamhcaldwell...boom - back to 100%....

 

The only other person I have seen ‘live’ doing this quite so obviously is Boris Laval...

 

 

The other candidate that comes to mind is Benny Stadlbaur....

 

To me, this is move is what separates the amateurs from the professionals...Boris is the only coach that I have skied with that truly understands this...the problem then lies with my thick skull and years of bad habits...but I am getting there...

[Adam Caldwell]

@gavski YES. Those boys are on the right path! No doubt about it. GREAT VIDEO.

[RGilmore]

@adamhcaldwell , @AdamCord Not to be argumentative, but your point about skier Will Asher keeping his "outside hand over inside edge of ski" seems a bit moot to me. In all the photos you use to illustrate this - both on snow and water - once the skiers are well into their turns they would have to have freakishly long arms to get their outside hand NOT over the inside edge of their ski(s) - even if their outside arm was stretched straight out sideways. Just sayin'

[Adam Caldwell]

@RGilmore. If you want to counter rotate and flail your arm with no actual intention, I don’t care.

 

We’re just trying to help highlight some very misunderstood gray area.

 

[matthewbrown]

I’ve got questions. If I’m running a little late in the course and I’m a lefty coming out of 2 ball and I pull/edge all the way to 3 ball, how much smearing is going on before I arrive to the buoy, or more importantly where does the smearing finally happen and then why on average does that turn tend to be better than the turns when I’m running early? What if I could take that concept further and mimmic that late smear while still running an early line?

[matthewbrown]

@adamhcaldwell there are major differences between the way Nate skis and the way Mapple skied. Mapple pulled too hard and too long and was always too banked into 2,4 which was his Achilles heel. But because of his superhuman strength he was able to get away with it. His 1,3,5 was spot on because his body was more up and inside the turning arc allowing him to smear the ski as late as possible. Nate skis with his mass much more ahead than Mapple at all times and therefore has a much flatter and progressive edgechange and he purposely holds off on smearing both sides until the last second at the backside of the buoy where all the magic happens. Nate can control his relationship with the boat(too much speed or slack) through the late smear much better than he could if he had used up all of his smear earlier before the buoy. The early smear is akin to heading to the batters box an attempting to hit a home run from a already half cocked position. It’s all about managing the finish of the turn when things go wrong, can you put yourself in the ideal position to handle it, skiing as early as you can is secondary.

[Adam Caldwell]

@mattewbrown, is the reason the turn suffers from being too early because the body rotation not continuously moving into the turn - causing the rotation to stop and the hips to shift back?

 

You can be sooo early you run out of speed, and you might need to counter to not sink. Happens a lot to me on earlier passes where I'm trying to exaggerate my movements.

 

Alternatively, to run a much earlier line with more rotation might require a slightly different fin/boot setup to keep the speed moving/swinging all the way through the turn.

 

As you stated, one issue with running an early line is bleeding too much speed to where the ski hangs up, wets out too much and doesn't rotate. But to me, thats a great issue to have.

 

Just because a ski turns well coming in super late and fast into the ball, doesn't necessarily mean you want to be late (and have late ski rotation) all the time. It just means you pulled long enough to create adequate centripetal force and release to get a much faster rotation then you normally you have.

 

Not sure why, but I see Nate rotating the ski way earlier then Mapple. So I'm confused by the statement that he "smears" later. Watch how early Nate is displacing water landing off the second wake. That spray is 100% produced by early rotation.

 

Then you have to consider trajectory. Trajectory is kind of like the sixth dimension in this sport that is harder to 'see'. Watch Nate leaving the second wake from overhead. His trajectory might surprise you. Come into the CL with less angle, and you already have solved half the problem of leaving the second wake on the 'right' path/trajectory. You don't need to "smear as much during the next preturn. BUT you can only get away with that if your hooking up with the boat crazy early off the ball and hitting CL WAY up-course of the next ball.

 

To touch on your first question.... You have to ask yourself this.. Does pulling all the way to the ball mean the ski is not rotating? I'd love to see someone try to get to the buoyline at 38off or shorter with two hands on the handle and the ski not already nearly parralell with the boat path.

[matthewbrown]

I can agree with all of that except the Nate part. He does as you said immediately the ski smears slightly but then he immediately and intuitively stops it. I have video from overhead and behind which gives a perfect view of how he stops the smearing process as early as possible, takes as much bank out of the ski as he be can so that the ski travels outbound while his body heads directly to the buoy through the turning process leading the turn. I am positive Mapple did this same thing into 1,3,5 and I’m equally sure that he didn’t into 2,4 as he always smeared too early and would fall over in those turns because of it. I’ll round that video up and post it later.

[gavski]

Joel Poland 38’ off...@Adamhcaldwell - how is he able to do this? Anything to do with what you are talking about?

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/B5hmzwpBFoQ/?utm_source=ig_embed&utm_campaign=embed_video_watch_again

[AdamCord]

@matthewbrown At the longer lines (as in longer than 41 for Nate) yes you will see Nate do this because he's created so much ski rotation that he would turn before the buoy if he kept the same amount of rotation. I get this at 32 and 35, Nate gets it all the way through 39. From what I've seen it goes away at 41 and 43, because he can't get the ski rotation started as early when the rope is super short.

 

As far as Mapple's swing into 2-4:

If you watch any of the videos after Mapple retired you see his falling in on 2-4 go away. He figured out how to swing into the turn and stay connected while rotating his body and therefore the ski. To me that move he makes going into 2-4 may be the BEST thing about his skiing. Watch how he moves off the 2nd wake and into the turn into his heelside starting at the 1:10 mark here:

 

[Adam Caldwell]

@gavski - 100%. You cannot do what Joel is doing in that video if you disconnect into level shoulders and open the body into a countered position. He pulls this off by staying connected with the outside of the body during the transition, unweighting and releasing pressure off the ski early, and rotating into the turn early.

 

I was really surprised that video did not get a whole lot more attention when it was first posted. With that skill set, I would expect Joel to be one of the next guys to see the end of 41 someday with the right ski setup/support.

 

Watch the shoulders in that video. The angle of his shoulders prior to releasing the outside hand off the handle is already at the angle hes looking for at the end of the turn. This is not an accident, and one of the points discussed over the winter in another thread.

[matthewbrown]

@AdamCord his best turn was 4 ball, and you can see why he kept his upper body on top of the ski more which slows down the early rotation, keeps a flatter bank and he’s able to dictate the turn on his own terms. Coming in to two ball he was on his heels and banking way too much, which resulted in a heavy turn. I’m not sure if we are saying the same thing here or not but you appear to believe that rotating early is better and I do not buy that as it almost always puts you on your heels as evidenced here in his 2 ball turn where you will have less control at the finish of the turn. In regards to Nate skiing an early line with rotation, so did Mapple Into 1,3,5 and you would always see that double pump. The double pump was him stopping the smear so as not to go inside the buoy just like Nate. This double pump has the happy side effect of allowing you to have the full ability of your smear at the buoy which is where I need it most, not off the white water headed toward the buoy.

[matthewbrown]

He still nearly ran 43 in that video, just legendary.

[AdamCord]

@matthewbrown I don’t disagree about staying over the ski coming through the transition. That keeps you swinging better and longer. Where I think we aren’t agreeing is about rotation. I’m not sure where you stand on this but I do NOT think the skier should be trying to rotate their chest to the shore coming off the 2nd wake.

 

Instead we should be letting the boat pull our body up and into the turn, while staying in a strong position agains the rope/pylon. This is not easy to do but it’s something that Mapple and Nate both do incredibly well.

 

Where most people run into trouble is when they believe they should be counter rotating all the way to the buoy line. This almost always results in a ski that has not begun to smear enough if at all, and a ski path that separates the skier from the handle too soon.

 

If instead we connect with our leading shoulder, like Andy does going to 2 ball, and elevate, the pull from the boat will rotate the skier into the turn before the outside hand ever releases from the handle. This sets the skier up to have a lot of ski rotation before apex, and therefore be in position to be coming back down/in on the buoy through the finish.

 

Not only does it make the turn easier, because less rotation at the finish is required, but the early smear slows the downcourse speed keeping the line tight. This is why Andy/Nate have such smooth turn finishes and also why the line stays tight even at 41.