Baller buoyboy1 Posted May 9, 2023 Baller Posted May 9, 2023 Looking to possibly repower my 2005 196 single puck ZO with a new 6.0L. Would like to get some feedback on the pull I can expect. To me the current 5.7 L 330 hp has plenty of power but do have some concerns that the new engine will make it more difficult to get free from the boat. I have skied behind some 200's and felt like the boat was on you the entire time no matter the ZO setting and that boat has a lot more surface area than a 196. Also, what prop should I consider? Thanks.
Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted May 9, 2023 Baller_ Posted May 9, 2023 (edited) I think if you already have a great running and skiing ZO boat why repower? if your SBC has hi hours, long block base engines are still available through many outlets except Pleasure craft marine. as far as 6.0 in the 196 model. we'll! they ski pretty sweet! use a 668 ACME.... I am finishing up a 196 rebuild and had both a small block Excalibur and a zr6 on crates. I chose thr Excalibur due to the fact I ski 32 mph now, my wife 30 mph, my daughter a small women 2 overall skier and stephen,,,, well he seems to be able to ski behind anything and do well... we just did not need the 6.0 for what we do... I picked up a 89 Master craft that the 6.0 is going in...... more on that project next month... Edited May 9, 2023 by Jody_Seal 5
Baller sgregg Posted May 9, 2023 Baller Posted May 9, 2023 We repowered our ‘98 Bubble Back with a 6.0L ZO Rev S, ACME 668 and we have a 200 6.0L Rev S in our rotation. Definitely feels like the 200 is “on” you more than the Bubble - guessing the difference in feel may be related to the difference in mass between the two boats?
Baller MDB1056 Posted May 9, 2023 Baller Posted May 9, 2023 Yes - why not just refresh vs replace your current 5.7? Simple, everything comes out and goes back as original, many more years of great skiing. Why complicate unnecessarily when you already said the pull is fine? 2
Baller aupatking Posted May 10, 2023 Baller Posted May 10, 2023 Really comes down to: what are you trying to accomplish?. Do you feel like you are having the boat “on you” at all times in tournaments? If so, duplicating that feeling with your own boat may be worth it. If not, why make your boat less fun to ski? Like I said, it’s not “what are you trying to do?”, it’s “what are you trying to accomplish”?
Baller MattCL Posted May 17, 2023 Baller Posted May 17, 2023 I had a 6.0/409 put in my '01 Ski Nautique to get zero off. It skis much better with more consistent speed. However, with the ACME 668 the bump at 22off is huge, so I put the 1442 3-blade on it and the 22off bump is much smaller, however I am underpropped to the point it revs up like a jet ski coming out of the hole. Has anyone tried a larger size/pitch 3-blade on this setup?
Baller 6balls Posted May 18, 2023 Baller Posted May 18, 2023 (edited) Sounds like you have a great boat as is...but I understand the desire to get further down the line. I see your tourney PB is into 39--tougher yet. Go get em! Edited May 18, 2023 by 6balls
Baller MattCL Posted May 18, 2023 Baller Posted May 18, 2023 Dude - If my tourney PB was 39 I wouldn’t even know about the 22off wake?
Baller jjackkrash Posted June 7 Baller Posted June 7 On 5/9/2023 at 5:50 AM, Jody_Seal said: I think if you already have a great running and skiing ZO boat why repower? if your SBC has hi hours, long block base engines are still available through many outlets except Pleasure craft marine. as far as 6.0 in the 196 model. we'll! they ski pretty sweet! use a 668 ACME.... I am finishing up a 196 rebuild and had both a small block Excalibur and a zr6 on crates. I chose thr Excalibur due to the fact I ski 32 mph now, my wife 30 mph, my daughter a small women 2 overall skier and stephen,,,, well he seems to be able to ski behind anything and do well... we just did not need the 6.0 for what we do... I picked up a 89 Master craft that the 6.0 is going in...... more on that project next month... Any idea ballpark what a new tranny would cost in a re-powered 196 with a 6.0L?
Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted June 7 Baller_ Posted June 7 https://skidim.com/transmission-kit-pcm-gm-80a-1-23-1/ 1
Baller sgregg Posted June 7 Baller Posted June 7 https://www.ski-it-again.com/php/skiitagain.php?endless=summer&topic=Search&category=Motor_Inboard&postid=69976
Baller jjackkrash Posted June 7 Baller Posted June 7 31 minutes ago, sgregg said: https://www.ski-it-again.com/php/skiitagain.php?endless=summer&topic=Search&category=Motor_Inboard&postid=69976 Do you know if that will just drop into a 196?
Baller markn Posted June 8 Baller Posted June 8 @buoyboy1 I have repowered my 2004 limited 196 with another 5.7. Added the series 80 tranny. I ski a lot at Swiss behind the 6.2 Ski Nautique and feel the pull is very similar to my 196. I run C2 on both boats. @ 34 mph. There are a ton of variables to the feel of the pull; driver, ski site depth, rope, accuracy of the course, etc. Know there is a new 343 excaliber on SIA if needed. A 196 ZO boat with an excaliber 5.7 or 6.0 is a heck of a great slalom machine. 3
Baller GaryJanzig Posted June 12 Baller Posted June 12 Looking at a Repower for my 1994 Ski Nautique. Engine has a crack in one of the heads, but have a temp fix to get me through the season. The engine is tired. Looking to swap out with a new engine, transmission, and zero off. I see lots of people using the ZR409. Pretty much the same as the ZR4? I will probably hit 2400+ hours by the end of the season. Since my boat is smaller than the new ones, which prop. I have an Acme 540 on it now with the 1:1 transmission. I am going to swap out the whole power train, controls, and zero off too. Which prop should I get with a zr4 and 1.23:1 transmission? I want to keep the rpm’s where they should be. I primarily slalom and trick ,but do a little barefoot too. Local marina will be doing it over the winter. I am in PA. Will I be able to use the same driveshaft? I am thinking I will have to get a different muffler so it can fit under the engine cover. I am going to draw a template this weekend to construct a shim for the engine box.
Baller storm34 Posted June 12 Baller Posted June 12 If helpful, here's my write up on our 01SN repower. CCFan Repower 540 will work but likely hit the rev limiter. Send your 540 to ACME and add more pitch or buy a 422. I ran the 540 for about a week then picked up a 422 from Skip. Same driveshaft will most likely work. No issues for us going from a gt40/40a transmission to 409/80a. Good time to switch to dual taper if not. Engine cover is an easy project. C&S had a carpet that matched our original equipment. I kept our shim seperate from the engine cover so I didn't have to mess with fiberglass work and replacing engine cover carpet. Tim White with Inboard Solutions in Montgomery County, Alabama was a great resource for us and gave me a few engine options. 3
Baller sgregg Posted June 12 Baller Posted June 12 My understanding is the pre-98 engine box has more fit issues with the 6.0 than the later model engine boxes. Skip has some 5.7’s listed on SIA that will likely be an easier fit with the 94 engine box.
Baller GaryJanzig Posted June 13 Baller Posted June 13 I measured the inside of my engine box and the zr409 should fit based on the measurements I got off a spec sheet. I will have to get a different muffler to free up the space under the engine box.. Saw the post on CCfan and am looking to build a similar shim out of composite. A friend knows a company that does 3d printing. I will check it out.
Baller Skoot1123 Posted June 13 Baller Posted June 13 When you all did the repower - how did you remove the fuel tank? Any tricks to be aware of? Thinking when my engine is done I too will be doing a repower. Might need to pick up an engine and tranny and mothball it until I need it.
Baller Ski2000 Posted June 13 Baller Posted June 13 I did pull the fuel tank to run new fuel lines and clean out 20 years of junk from the back. The brackets are a bit of a hassle to get on off but once they are free and out, you can get back and disconnect the fuel fill line and the vent line, it’s also a good time to take care of your ruder and a new steering cable as it’s easy to reach with everything out 1
Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted June 13 Baller_ Posted June 13 just did a 95 sport Nautique, went through ever nut and bolt fuel tank had 4 years of hurricane gas in it at tear down. new fuel supply, anti siphon, new filtration system as well as tank tear down clean and flush, thought i would pass on if you are remotely considering a repower i would get with the program as these are and will be obsolete soon in many cases. there are few non cat packages available but they will soon be depleted. repair parts will be around for a while, however with GM changing their industrial and truck platforms more often even the direct inject platform will be superseded..
Baller Skoot1123 Posted June 14 Baller Posted June 14 Hey @Jody_Seal I’d like to learn more. Was discussing this with the other half and I got the go ahead to look into it more seriously. Budgetary review and the like. Plus what all I will need to do to make it work. @storm34 - I found your journey on CCFan. Sounds like a fun project.
Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted June 14 Baller_ Posted June 14 6 minutes ago, Skoot1123 said: Hey @Jody_Seal I’d like to learn more. Was discussing this with the other half and I got the go ahead to look into it more seriously. Budgetary review and the like. Plus what all I will need to do to make it work. @storm34 - I found your journey on CCFan. Sounds like a fun project. sure, PM me we can go over the build. 1
Baller storm34 Posted June 17 Baller Posted June 17 On 6/14/2024 at 8:12 AM, Skoot1123 said: @storm34 - I found your journey on CCFan. Sounds like a fun project. Go for it - you won't regret it one bit!
Baller storm34 Posted July 9 Baller Posted July 9 @GaryJanzig sweet! Did you find a muffler? I have one that would work for a non-cat motor.
Baller GaryJanzig Posted July 9 Baller Posted July 9 The plan is for the motor in the winter months. Don't know what I will be able to use yet.
Baller GaryJanzig Posted July 9 Baller Posted July 9 I talked to PCM and they recommended the ZR409. I can't get parts for the control lever for the year of my boat so I am going to change out the controls to drive by wire, engine, and change to the 1.23:1 transmission. I have a new switch panel to install since the original is starting to break down. I have to order a set of indicator lights. I am also going to get zero off. I will have some parts to sell also. New carb, two props, 1 carb that needs rebuilt, 1 almost brand new, water pump, and a rebuilt alternator. Maybe a muffler if the current one will not work. MY friends think I am nuts, but repowering is the most affordable option for me. I barefoot and pull barefooters too so the extra ponies will come in handy for sure. Current engine is 240HP and the original 1:1 transmission. The shim I am constructing is 2 1/2 inches tall. 3
Baller Skoot1123 Posted July 10 Baller Posted July 10 @GaryJanzig are you getting the engine through PCM or just consulting with them on what engine and tranny to use?
Baller GaryJanzig Posted July 10 Baller Posted July 10 PCM told me I have to order through a dealer. I have a marina I am working with to service my boat and do the install. They are going to check and see if they can order it. I will meet with their mechanics at some point to go over everything. I was told any PCM dealer can order it but it can be drop shipped anywhere for the install. 2
Baller Ski2000 Posted July 10 Baller Posted July 10 I got mine through Tim White with inboard solutions. He was great to work with and as I did the installation myself, he talked me through a couple electrical issues I had to get worked out. 2
Baller storm34 Posted July 10 Baller Posted July 10 Sounds like a fun project! Excited to see the finished product.
Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted July 10 Baller_ Posted July 10 Thought i would let everyone know PCM just sent out a long list of engines that have been discounted to PCM dealers for repower or replacement. these engines carry at least a one year warranty. i did not see any 5.7 on the list nor did i see any non cat 6.0 on the list. a number of 6.0 cat,5.3 cat and 6,2 cat some with transmission most bob tail. any one interested can contact their local PCM dealer, you can contact inboard solutions, Skip Dunlap, Doug Moss or my self for any inquiries. you will need to contact anyone from those listed above for pricing. Get em while they are hot!!
Baller rawly Posted July 11 Baller Posted July 11 8 hours ago, Jody_Seal said: Thought i would let everyone know PCM just sent out a long list of engines that have been discounted to PCM dealers for repower or replacement. these engines carry at least a one year warranty. i did not see any 5.7 on the list nor did i see any non cat 6.0 on the list. a number of 6.0 cat,5.3 cat and 6,2 cat some with transmission most bob tail. any one interested can contact their local PCM dealer, you can contact inboard solutions, Skip Dunlap, Doug Moss or my self for any inquiries. you will need to contact anyone from those listed above for pricing. Get em while they are hot!! I sure wish we could contact Doug Moss as you stated. For you people who don’t know Doug. He is one of the coolest dudes and one of best boat mechanics that I know of , right up there with Skip and Jody. He services a lot of our boats in a large part of California. He was recently in a terrible street bike accident where he lost his wife and ended up getting very badly hurt himself. It’s hard not to think of Doug whenever I read anything about re powering or any sort of mechanical issues. Hang in there Doug. You have a whole lot of us thinking about you. 6
Baller GaryJanzig Posted July 11 Baller Posted July 11 Going to make molds out of styrofoam or paper cups and incase he tops in JB Weld. 1
Baller skibrent Posted July 13 Baller Posted July 13 Great source of info and contacts! -We have 1350 hrs on our 2006 SN196 5.7 dbw with stargazer, z box and latest software upgrade. Been working with Mark Schwartz at PP off and on over the past few years to solve a surging problem for skiers below 49 km/30mph. Mark is great to work with, very helpful and obliging and even provided the most up to date software but the only solution that works is reverting to SG mode eliminating ABC/123 pull options. For most of us this isn’t an issue as we are 52/32 - 58/36 skiers. Anyone else have any ideas?
Baller GaryJanzig Posted July 14 Baller Posted July 14 Sounds like the background settings need to be adjusted.
Baller storm34 Posted July 18 Baller Posted July 18 On 7/11/2024 at 9:30 AM, GaryJanzig said: Engine cover hinge pins. On the pins, I was planning to use something similar to these. Just never got around to ordering them. Currently using SS carriage bolts. https://www.grainger.com/product/INNOVATIVE-COMPONENTS-Quick-Release-Pin-Rounded-3JDF3
Baller Skoot1123 Posted July 18 Baller Posted July 18 This may be a far out ask - has anyone converted a SN 196 to one of the new 5.3 GM engines? I know there would be wiring changes involved, not sure about clearance or mounting and transmission placement. 1
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